Talk:Massive Attack

Dead Sources

Killed dead Rolling Stone reference and statement. Citation non-working. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.27.121.20 (talk) 03:55, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

LP6

Sorry, but it's bosh to list LP6 in the discography! There is no release date, no name, no guarantee... 92.231.49.246 (talk) 08:47, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree. If we're going to be that speculative we could add LP7 (2012?) and LP8 (2014?) while we're at it.--Michig (talk) 08:55, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

The source cited states "After they wrap up their U.S. dates, Massive Attack will head back into the studio to record their next LP and Del Naja says the band has already sketched out plenty of ideas", i.e. they haven't started recording a new album yet. The album does not exist and may never exist. Including it in a discography when it hasn't been recorded or even confirmed that it's going to exist is ridiculous.--Michig (talk) 21:01, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Article issues

The article has been tagged with unspecified clean up since October 2010. The organisation of the article was poor, with two separate histories, a misplaced music style section, and an inadequate lead. I moved the history summary into the lead, where it seemed to more appropriately belong, and moved the Music style section to the end, where such sections are normally found. I then started to improve the lead so the first paragraph gives us some basic information, such as who are in the band, and what are their major recordings. I then noticed that the history summary contains slightly different information to the main history, so the information needs merging and sorting out. There is also a lot of unsupported statements that come across as editorial opinion or observation, so I have removed the unspecified clean up tag and replaced it with an OR tag. This article contains an assortment of information, some useful, some doubtful. It is difficult to know which statements have been gathered from reliable sources and which have been written from editorial observation. For such a high profile article on an important and popular band, we need more secure referencing, and tighter organisation of the article. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 15:20, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

External Link to Fansite

Can I go ahead and add a link to my fansite to Massive Attack - http://massiveattack.ie/ or does that fall under the "Links normally to be avoided" section of http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Wikipedia:External_links

While on the subject, there are a few other fansites and official social media/networking accounts for Massive Attack that could be added to the External Links section. I don't see much use in linking to a few random interviews that are on there at the moment. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.249.249.44 (talk) 11:52, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Under WP:ELNO, we wouldn't link to fansites or social networking sites. --John (talk) 11:59, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

OK then. Well thats what I expected. Thanks for the quick reply. Is there any reason why those links to a few random interviews should be there though? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.249.249.44 (talk) 12:05, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

As a rule, we can use stuff in the external links section that we could potentially use to support the material in the article. Interviews can sometimes be used to source the article. Fansites and social networking never can. --John (talk) 12:22, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

I have 2 links to my site in the References section that someone (not me) used in the article. I changed the URL structure of those links on my site sometime ago so now they are dead links. Is it OK for me to change the URL of those dead links to where the pages are now on my site so they will no longer be dead. Cheers! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.249.249.44 (talk) 12:34, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately as a fansite we cannot use it as a reference either. I have removed the links. --John (talk) 13:01, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

WP:ELNO says that fansites are generally to be avoided, it does'nt say never, so could'nt some discretion be applied here. It also says that fansites or blogs may be more inclined to be allowed if they are from a "recognized authority". What's the criteria for that? I did interview Massive Attack once, but I'm unsure if that makes me anymore of a "recognized authority" than anyone else. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.249.249.44 (talk) 13:27, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

I was considering adding massiveattack.ie to External Links. The Guardian says here that "A superfan, Richard Coffey from Ireland, graciously referred to as the band’s unofficial historian, joins the party and spends some time analysing the current arrangements of Teardrop, which he explains to Del Naja “are probably at their best at the moment”. Coffey’s obsession translates to an encyclopaedic knowledge of all the interviews Massive Attack have ever given." WP:ELNO says "Blogs, personal web pages and most fansites (negative ones included), except those written by a recognized authority. (This exception for blogs, etc., controlled by recognized authorities is meant to be very limited; as a minimum standard, recognized authorities who are individuals always meet Wikipedia's notability criteria for people.)" (my emphasis). -Lopifalko (talk) 08:04, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

"Present"

More of a general question. Apologies for the nubie wiki question, but I really don't know/can't find the answer. What does the word "Present" mean when talking about a band. As in, Massive Attack is, according to the article, "active" from the years 1988-"present." Sorry for the quip but there is nothing presently active about Massive Attack. And there was nothing presently active about Massive Attack a year before that. Or the year before that. Not a slight on Massive Attack. Just trying to understand the terminology. Thanks. Kavika411 (talk) 00:01, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

It simply means they're still active, as a band i.e. they are not on official hiatus, they have not broken up, they still exist as a musical entity now - in the present. 80.193.25.91 (talk) 09:10, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Danny the Dog

The Massive Attack produced soundtrack to independent film 'Danny the Dog' is missing from the entire article.

Actually I found it briefly mentioned in one of the sections, I thought it would have had it dedicated its own section. Some history about the album, coverart etc.... It was hard to find it wasn't as if I logged on and wasn't expecting to find its own section.

External links modified

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Orphaned references in Massive Attack

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Massive Attack's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "pitchfork":

• From Lungs (album): Dombal, Ryan (13 August 2009). "Florence and the Machine: Lungs". Pitchfork Media. Retrieved 23 June 2010.
• From Burial (musician): Sisson, Patrick (18 January 2010). "Pitchfork interviews Four Tet". Pitchfork Media. Pitchfork Media. Retrieved 2010-02-17.
• From OK Computer: Schreiber, Ryan (31 December 1997), "Radiohead: OK Computer: Pitchfork Review", Pitchfork Media, archived from the original on 30 October 2001, retrieved 16 May 2009 {{citation}}: |archive-date= / |archive-url= timestamp mismatch; 3 March 2001 suggested (help)
• From Yellow Magic Orchestra: Dominique Leone (July 19, 2005). "Hosono & Yokoo: Cochin Moon". Pitchfork Media. Retrieved May 26, 2011.
• From Through the Devil Softly: Pitchfork Review www.pitchfork.com. Access date: June 26, 2010.
• From Mono (UK band): Harder, Derrick (29 August 2000). "Mono Disbands, World Promptly Forgets They Ever Existed". Pitchfork Media. Retrieved 2007-01-19.
• From The Spoils (single): "Massive Attack Release "Come Near Me" New Video, Plus Hope Sandoval Collaboration". Pitchfork. Retrieved 29 July 2016.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 02:10, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Name Meaning or Origin

Does anybody have information on why MA called themselves "Massive Attack"? A name fit for a Thrash Metal or Hard Core band, but that often soft and dreamlike music with whispered lyrics which cannot even be called Rap? I guess the name derives from something else, maybe a constant fear of being attacked by society or whatever, but I couldn't find any information about this. I think the article could use a section dealing with this subject (if any information is available at all). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alfe (talk • contribs) 14:07, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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External links modified

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Tricky former member?

Tricky has never been a former member of Massive Attack. A simple look at the liner notes to any album would have confirmed this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.151.101.136 (talk) 23:28, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Exactly.

Read the album's sleeve @Binksternet BristolWriter22 (talk) 17:52, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Tricky as a member

Some recent edits have removed Tricky as a member. There are many published sources describing Tricky as a member, for instance this 2012 piece in The Guardian which says "the three core members" of Massive Attack were Wild Bunch sound system operators Robert "3D" Del Naja, Andrew "Mushroom" Vowles and Grant "Daddy G" Marshall. It says Trick and Nellee Hooper were also members of the Wild Bunch "extended collective". The writer says, "For the recording of Blue Lines, Tricky was still in the fold, rapping and co-writing on three songs. (Twenty-one years on, the extent of his contribution remains a source of friction between him and the group.)" So in this writer's view, Tricky was a member of the group, despite others saying he was not.

Another Guardian article, this one from 2019, says "Tricky shaped the sound of Massive Attack’s landmark 1991 album Blue Lines". The Evening Standard called Tricky "one of the original members of music group Massive Attack".[1] The magazine Metro Silicon Valley writes, "As members of Massive Attack, Tricky and 3D pioneered a snarling, whispered rap style on their 1991 debut album, Blue Lines."[2]

Fact magazine said Tricky was a member of the Wild Bunch and Massive Attack.[3] Dublin writer Karl Whitney wrote a book called Hit Factories which says on page 239, "the rapper Tricky was then [early '90s] a member of Massive Attack." ISBN 9781474607421

Under the Radar said that Tricky left Massive Attack over "creative differences", and that the band might invite him back.[4] You cannot leave a band if you were not a member of it.

AllMusic's biography of Tricky says he first became famous as a member of Massive Attack.[5] As well, the AllMusic biography of Massive Attack says Tricky is an ex-member–an "alumnus".[6]

I acknowledge that there are contradictory sources saying Tricky was not a member, just a collaborator, but those don't erase the sources saying he was a member. Binksternet (talk) 17:40, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Go to the albums sleeves: Tricky never signed a contract as a band member. He was always a guest, like Horace Andy.

See the band's official bio on All Music:

https://www.allmusic.com/artist/massive-attack-mn0000378288/biography

The article you link from the Guardian starts with this very sentence: "the three members of Massive Attack", aka the three on the photo too, Mush, G and D.

Tricky doesn't even claim to have been a formal "member", see his own biography: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hell-Round-Corner-No-Holds-Autobiography/dp/1788702301/ref=pd_rhf_dp_s_ci_mcx_mr_hp_d_sccl_2/261-3366585-0031817?pd_rd_w=IrInH&pf_rd_p=5a14bb4e-1e7d-4b31-858b-724a0813326e&pf_rd_r=BPRTR2SFE7X5DKKS5FCS&pd_rd_r=590b5f3a-b4cf-429b-9b1f-0eda1d2a9dfe&pd_rd_wg=Oq0Pg&pd_rd_i=1788702301&psc=1 BristolWriter22 (talk) 17:50, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm not interested in whether Tricky's signature is on a piece of paper. I'm interested in whether the media consider Tricky to be a member. It is undeniable that significant media publications have described him as a member. Which means we cannot simply remove him as a member—those sources cannot be erased. Rather, we can tell the reader that Del Naja or whoever disputes his membership, and that other media sources describe him as a collaborator with the band. Binksternet (talk) 17:58, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

The media doesn't own cultural history, it's a large misconception in this case and lack of interaction with the artists.

The artists all agree: Tricky was a guest, he had a tremendous contribution, for sure, but he was never signed by their label. He was in a similar position as Shara Nelson and Horace Andy.

He is especially not a band member now, he tours alone and had mostly a solo carrier.

Your own opinion should not come before the facts. BristolWriter22 (talk) 18:03, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia is mainly built on WP:SECONDARY sources, which makes the media the biggest factor in shaping this article. Wikipedia is ideally a summary of all the literature published about a topic. If we summarize the literature here, we must tell the reader that Tricky was said by many to be a member, but his membership is disputed by others. The remaining question is whether Tricky's name is filed under the members or the guests. I think the majority of published sources say he is a member.

In his book Tricky says he was paid for being in Massive Attack. He says he was a member, describing the day he decided to leave the group. Binksternet (talk) 18:15, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

He was paid by Massive Attack indeed, as a contributor.

As a member, he would not have needed payment, he would received copyright, like the three members.

The band pay their instrumentalists, vocalists and guests, yes. BristolWriter22 (talk) 18:22, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

And surely, you must reckon that Tricky is not a member of the band now :-) BristolWriter22 (talk) 18:27, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

The article should be expanded with this additional information, who signed with the record label etc. Jonpatterns (talk) 11:17, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Request for comment: Should Tricky be listed as a member of Massive Attack?

Relative to the discussion above, should Tricky (musician) be listed in the infobox as a past member of the group? Or should he be removed from the infobox because he was only a collaborator? Binksternet (talk) 21:16, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Discussion

• Infobox yes, because enough publications describe him explicitly as a member, and even more publications describe him as vitally important in shaping the early sound of Massive Attack. Even if he was technically a collaborator, not having signed with the label, he was crucial and significant enough to list as a member. Binksternet (talk) 21:16, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
• Yes for inclusion in the infobox. Since reliable sources differ as to what they state was the role of Tricky in the band, list, and describe the details in the body of the article. (Summoned by bot) Robert McClenon (talk) 02:47, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
• Yes, definitely as per the reasons already invoked. Robertgombos (talk) 08:16, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
• Yes, for reasons above. Additionally, not having signed with the label should not warrant exclusion as being considered a member of the band. De jure in the eyes of the label doing administrative work and accounting, Tricky was dealt with differently, but de facto it's obvious that he was a (crucial) member of the band, and sources treat him as such. tofubird | ✉ 04:17, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
• Yes as per wide coverage of his importance to the band. Label contracts shouldn't really matter when deciding artistic memberships. PraiseVivec (talk) 11:00, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
• Comment, The article should be consistent in the main text and infobox. If he is considered a 'de facto' member then that should be stated in the article, not just alluded to in the infobox. Jonpatterns (talk) 11:05, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Tricky as touring member

Did Tricky tour with Massive Attack during his time as collaborator on the first two albums? If so he should be listed in the appropriate section. Jonpatterns (talk) 11:00, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Members / Past Members

Sorry to kick this up again as I can see there has already been extensive discussion, but the way this article writes who is a member and who was a past member is verging on absolutely farcical. Tricky has never been a member of the band Massive Attack. That is reserved for Daddy G, 3D and Mushroom. Those are the only members of the band. Mushroom is the only past member.

The list of past members, as well as Tricky, is basically justa list of collaborators who have featured on records previously. It is also a non-exhaustive list so how the line has been drawn to include one (say, Tracey Thorn) but not another (say, Sinead O'Connor, who featured on exactly the same number of tracks as Thorn) is totally arbitrary.

Honestly, the article is a disaster to read. It's not even remotely factual. And the comments above are even worse - somehow managing to conclude that subjective media articles which are tenuously factual could ever be a replacement for objective liner notes is just farcical. Just because a person is referred to as a 'member' by a journalist should not itself be used as a reference for that member's inclusion on what is essentially an encyclopedia article. This page is so full of errors, it readily misinforms readers about the true and objective background of the band. 62.56.190.57 (talk) 11:27, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

To expand on the last point.

Shara Nelson was a guest vocalist on Blue Lines but she is noted as a 'past member'.

Tracey Thorn was a guest vocalist on Protection but she is noted as a 'past member'.

Liz Fraser was a guest vocalist on Mezzanine but she is noted as a 'touring member'.

Sinead O'Connor was a guest vocalist on 100th Window but she is not noted anywhere.

Horace Andy continues to be a guest vocalist yet he is listed as a 'past member'.

As for Tricky, all promotional shots that have ever been shot of the band during the first three albums promotional work never featured his visage. Neither did any of the members noted as 'past'. He is unequivocally NOT a member past or present. And if his contribution is deemed noteworthy, it is much less so than Horace Andy who appeared as a guest vocalist (NB also NOT a former member) on every single album.

All of the above were collaborators. The only former member is Mushroom. The only current members are Daddy G and 3D. Noting these collaborators as past members is akin to saying that David Bowie was a member of Queen on the basis he collaborated on 'Under Pressure'. Or that Nile Rodgers is a former member of Daft Punk on the basis that he played guitar on Random Access Memories.

There are so many issues with the formulation of the opening section of this article that it needs a total rewrite. It is intensely frustrating as a long time fan of the band to have such a poorly written summary of the band. 62.56.190.57 (talk) 13:52, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

I agree with your points to some extent. However, some of the sources are contradictory. So I don't think we can say unequivocally Tricky was never a member, and was more integral than many of your examples. If you create an account we could maybe discuss and make progress on this issue. Jonpatterns (talk) 16:48, 22 September 2024 (UTC)