Talk:Maronite Church

164.58.84.42

It is incorrect that journalist Anthony Shadid is a Maronite Catholic. Mr. Shadid was raised in the Eastern Orthodox faith. The Shadid's of Oklahoma were Eastern Orthodox immigrants from Lebanon. Mr. Shadid continues to practice this faith.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.58.84.42 (talk • contribs)

Crusades Century Corrected

The Crusades section had the following text: It was in the 16th century AD when Western religious groups started settling in Lebanon. The migration began in 1626 with the Capuchins, followed by the Jesuits. I believe 1626 is the 17th century AD, not 16th.

Requested move 3 September 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move. Primefac (talk) 18:43, 3 October 2020 (UTC) Primefac (talk) 18:43, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

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Maronite Church → Maronite Catholic Church – WP:Consistent with 22 Catholic churches Manabimasu (talk) 05:19, 3 September 2020 (UTC)—Relisting. Jerm (talk) 15:24, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. Unnecessary, not the common name. Elizium23 (talk) 05:43, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
• @Manabimasu: just curious. are there only 22 churches in catholic christanity? —usernamekiran (talk) 06:01, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
  • There are 24, by my reading (Latin Church + 23 Eastern Catholic Churches). Bettering the Wiki (talk) 06:12, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
• Support. Would communicate it's part of the worldwide Catholic Church.Bettering the Wiki (talk) 06:12, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose as unnecessary. Srnec (talk) 21:24, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
• Support, because this article is dedicated to the Maronite Catholic Church, while the true meaning of the term "Maronite Church" referes to the original Maronite Church that existed during the Middle Ages. Sorabino (talk) 20:17, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose; this is an unnecessary change which may bring forth confusion, as if the Maronites were previously Eastern or Oriental Orthodox (such as, for example the Oriental Orthodox Syriac Orthodox Church and the Eastern Catholic Syriac Catholic Church). - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 02:46, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose: The Maronite Church is not known worldwide as Catholic; Catholic is commonly understood as being Latin Catholic in rubric and liturgy, i.e., Roman Catholic. This is not the case with this ecclesial community. -- Whiteguru (talk) 07:53, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Maronite Church/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Amitchell125 (talk · contribs) 20:41, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

I'll review this one.

Failed without further review

The article does not meet the good article criteria, and has been failed. The main issues are highlighted in the cleanup banner at the top of the article and as hatnotes within the article's main text. The cleanup banner reflects comments made during Talk:Maronite Church/GA1, which have not yet been addressed. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:31, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Maroun or Maron

The appropriate spelling for the saint's name is Maroun not 'Maron'. Those who have a proficiency in Arabic or Syriac will easily recognise this fact. However, a user who seems to be American-centric is erroneously claiming that the standard spelling is 'Maron' despite individuals who bear his name as their first name or family name have hold the spelling of 'Maroun' etc. Archbishop Maroun Ammar, Julian Maroun, Eddy Maroun. Furthermore, Lebanon has a village named Maroun al-Ras. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LebaneseMaronite (talk • contribs) 22:20, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

@LebaneseMaronite: besides ignoring conventions of citation and neutral point of view on this Wiki, you have been persistent in altering the spelling of "Maron" to "Maroun." The standard spelling in English across the board is "Maron" when dealing with the holy man (with the particular exception of some Australian English). Conventions of Arabic-to-English transliteration are fluid and change frequently ("Moslem"–>"Muslim," "Mohamed"–>"Muhammed", etc.). Wikipedia's job is to be encyclopedic and thus defer to the usage most relevant to the article(s) at hand, and to do so consistently. As such, we are charged to avoid interchangeable usages within articles that might confuse people (such as the case here). Since you have cited a handful of villages–though not provided references–might I show you what evidence there is to the contrary of your point:

• Religious usage: Maronite Catholic Eparchy of Saint Maron of Brooklyn (1, United States), Maronite Catholic Eparchy of Saint Maron of Montreal (2, Canada), Saint Maron Parish, Youngstown, Ohio (3, United States), CNEWA (4, United States), St. Maron Parish, Minneapolis (5, United States), Cathedral of St. Maron, Montreal (6, Canada), Maronite Heritage blog (7, Australia)
• Academic/historic usage: Encyclopædia Brittanica (1 for St. Maron, 2 for St. John Maron), Encyclopedia of Cleveland History (3), Catholic Encyclopedia (4, uses predecessor transliteration "Maro"), The Maronite Foundation in the World (5)

The list goes on. I understand that it might be frustrating that a technically correct term is not the standard usage, particularly when it is your preferred use. However, the established precedent for using "Maron" as well as the wealth of examples of reference to St. Maron sans the "u" makes your commitment to an edit war on the subject more trouble than its worth. Unless you find consensus to support your position, please refrain from engaging in further reversion, alterations, or the like. Thanks ~ Pbritti (talk) 01:38, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Updating the page

Hello,

It appears that the existing sections of this Wikipedia page are scarce. At a minimum we should attempt to update and rewrite certain paragraphs, while adding new subheadings relating to topics that are yet to be discussed. Furthermore, a lot of statements in this page are ambiguous and could be expanded for clarity, for example, under the 'Latinization' heading it states Patriarch Stephan al-Duwayhî (1670–1704)... re-vitalized Maronite liturgical tradition. How? Expanding on important sections like this with referenced information will greatly benefit Maronites and non-Maronites alike.

Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maronite98 (talk • contribs) 00:00, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Maronite98 kindly reached out to me off the wiki to discuss a general revision of this page to align it better with the modern consensuses on this topic. The objectives of this revision would be to remove/contextualize ethnopolitical POV issues, apocryphal narratives, and update with perspectives from experts both ecclesiastical and secular. As such, I encourage editors to review the below list of sources we intend to consult. The addition of further sources is greatly appreciated. A tentative completion date should be included, so I move for the end of June. Thank you! ~ Pbritti (talk) 23:57, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

References to be consulted

• General history

• Stanley, History of the Eastern Church. 1884. Note: This source is rather old, supporting the consensus that the Maronites are part of the Syrian tradition, including liturgically.
• Attwater, A Catholic Dictionary (3rd ed.). 1962. Note: This source is somewhat more modern, but terribly limited in scope. Included material also greatly relevant to liturgy, including sourcing approving of Maronite liturgy as a distinct Syriac "rite," notable since Attwater was a proponent of the term "use" when applicable.
• Attwater, The Catholic Eastern Churches (Revised ed.). 1937. Note: Attwater's more general discussion of Maronite history can be found here. He is rather disapproving of the standard 20th-century intra-Maronite historical consensus.
• Labaki, The Maronites in the United States. 1993. Note: As the title suggests, almost exclusively about the American Maronite diaspora.

• Liturgy

• Attwater, Eastern Catholic Worship. 1945. Note: Less than comprehensive, but useful. An earlier source than his dictionary, Attwater identifies the Maronite liturgy less independent from the general Syriac liturgical family.
• Book of Offering. 2012. Note: Most recent approved pew-edition English translation of the Holy Qurbono. Preface material is hardly adequate for comprehensive study, but covers some of the developments post-1965.
• Qurbono: The Book of Offering [...] Season of the Glorious Birth of the Lord. 1993. Note: Earlier translation, merely useful as a high-level reference, but perhaps still applicable in a future article on the Maronite Rite.
• The Maronite Liturgical Year: Volume 1. 1982. Note: Includes minor preface noting lateral reversion to earlier Maronite practice. Again, would be largely useful on a new Maronite Rite page.
• Maxwell E. Johnson & Stefanos Alexopoulos, Introduction to Eastern Christian Liturgies. 2021. Note: A recent survey of Eastern Christian liturgies. Includes an analysis of the Maronite Liturgy and characterizes the Maronite Rite as a distinct rite from West Syriac. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maronite98 (talk • contribs) 23:59, 25 April 2022 (UTC)