Talk:Manly P. Hall

Early Years

MPH did not travel to LA, California with his maternal grandmother. She died while they were previously in NYC, which is what precipitated his move back to LA. I hesitate to make the edit, because I don't want it to be removed, but if someone sees this, please do! Johnoh5464 (talk) 19:26, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

NPOV discussion

Added NPOV template due to biased language throughout.

Added clean-up template because there are statements taken from the PRS website verbatim without citing.

Language, while positive, isn't particularly biased. It's certainly not inaccurate, and is no more POV than any number of other biographical articles. Deleting Neutrality template. —Clarknova 05:58, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Can someone add them back please, I don't know how to do this, particularly or not the article is biased, the idolatry tone is uncharacteristic of wikipedia, and the sentences as the other user said lifted off of this (dead) guys website, being in the occult such types are generally very hush hush about their doing, that doesn't mean that whatever represantation they get in wikipedia shouldn't be well balanced, as much as it can. 195.134.69.158 15:27, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I have done so for you. Please keep an eye on this page in case discussion comes up. -999 (Talk) 22:15, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

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Manly Palmer Hall is another figure like Eliphas Levi and Athanasius Kircher, whose more or less personal speculations have been taken up by others as supposed occult and/or mystic "age-old ancient traditions". The language in this article may be relentlessly positive, but in fact it is quite true that he's been very influential among English-speaking 20th-century occultists and New Agers (even though many of them have never heard his name). AnonMoos 00:40, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

From what I gather, Mr. M. P. Hall was anything but 'hush hush' about what he knew. The Secret Teaching of All Ages is dedicated to demystifying the occult sciences and making them accessible to anyone who is inclined to pick up the book and read it. (CMS - January 2007)

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One of the problems with this article is the lack of basic biographical information, as well as the problems with tone. There's a good biographic article in this issue http://download.dailygrail.com/subrosa/SubRosa_Issue6-Single.pdf of the online magazine Sub Rosa; it would be a good place to start at least. Proptology 04:23, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, the recent edits have eliminated pretty much all of the NPOV problem, although it looks like when you remove the overblown language and idolatrous tone, what's left is basically a stub. Should it be marked as such? I think the NPOV flag can probably be removed now, at any rate. There was some interesting stuff edited out (necessarily so) from the original article, and it probably needs to be replaced somehow. For instance, The Secret Teaching is his best-known work, so it might be worth putting back a précis of it. The current list of publications seems too selective; the more complete it can be made, the more useful it will be. Proptology 02:53, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm also of the opinion that this article is looking fairly neutral in its POV. I'd be in favor of removing the flag. I have more info and sources I can add to the selected works, I just need to find them in my sagging book shelves.Darrell Wheeler 12:05, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

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I agree with the fact that this once-article now reads like a stub, and while I am no fan of M.P. Hall, I believe having such an abridged biography here is a disservice to the information. The historical importance and influence of Manly P. Hall within this genre of writing is profound and far-reaching and created a legacy within the esoteric arts. There are many things that are absent in the information, including a photo, which is easily obtained and should be restored. I recommend an editor familiar with MPH and the PRS in Los Angeles should re-write this page in its entirety.--Chieflamedeer (talk) 22:49, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Copy and Paste

The entire article is just a copy of the brief bio from this site: http://www.manlyphall.org/ Exxoskeleton (talk) 10:20, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

What is the status of this plagiarism challenge? The indicated link is broken; was the article as a whole plagiarized, or no? Is a single source tag relevant, or no? LeProf 50.179.245.225 (talk) 06:41, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

So far as I can see, the website copied this article. The earliest Wayback version is [1] which is more or less identical to the earlier Wikipedia page at[2]. Dougweller (talk) 12:52, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

NPOV

Saw POV tag from other page, been up for half a year. Article is slightly POV. I wouldn't say bad, but some rewording is in order. Hooper (talk) 19:50, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Biography of Hall

I removed this newly-published biography (July 1, 2008 according to Amazon) from the ref list because it is not cited in the article. It could probably be useful in fleshing out the entry, but needs to be specifically cited to be included in the refs section: Master of the Mysteries: The Life of Manly Palmer Hall by Louis Sahagun (Process Media, ISBN:978-1-934170-02-1).--Typing Monkey - ^{(type to me)} 16:45, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

That does not mean it's right to remove it entirely from the article. It would be quite appropriate to give the book mention in a section of its own. This is common Wikipedia practice. __meco (talk) 16:52, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't disagree with including it, but its inclusion should be within the standards of Wikipedia. The book is the only biography to date of Hall that I know of. This article needs expansion. Someone who has read the new bio should definitely include pertinent information in the main section of the article and cite the bio as a reference. If you've read it, please do so! Typing Monkey - ^{(type to me)} 02:11, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Have you ever heard of a "further reading" section? The book should not have been removed. Viriditas (talk) 12:13, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Bio fails to mention anything about Brother Manly's life or passing

My observation is that the bio is unduly conservative - and - I would point to the absence of any information about the circumstances of his passing let alone the rest of his personal life. Whilst this might be found elsewhere it is a glaring OM mission on these 'legacy' pages which are hopefully to be securely passed onto the future. The manner of his death was the aspect that drew me to this wiki article.

In view of his importance I assume this is intentional rather than a reflection of his waning relevance. Naradaian (talk) 10:01, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

title

Hardly any information about Manly P. Hall or his work. His Secret History of the Ages is required reading those entering the higher degrees of Freemasonry, yet very little --if anything-- issaid about this book, his most famous work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.242.28.57 (talk) 01:14, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Feel free to edit the article (see WP:VERIFY and WP:NOR first. Dougweller (talk) 05:49, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Um... Just to be clear, "Secret History of the Ages" is not required reading for those entering the higher degrees of Freemasonry. At best it falls under "suggested reading". Blueboar (talk) 17:31, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Quotation demanding clarification

In the following early sentence appearing in the article, there is an unpaired quotation mark; please correct or remove the sentence:

His nascent interest was solidified by meeting—and becoming a student of—Sydney J. Brownson, "a diminutive horse-and-buggy doctor and Civil War veteran in his early 70s" who had set up business as a practitioner of phrenology, "the pseudo-science popular at the turn of the century that divided the brain into areas responsible for noble traits such as heroism and despised ones such as cruelty, and mapped them out in patterns on the surface of the brain. Hall delved deeply into "teachings of lost and hidden traditions, the golden verses of Hindu gods, Greek philosophers and Christian mystics, and the spiritual treasures waiting to be found within one's own soul." Less than a year later, Hall booked his first lecture, and the topic was reincarnation.[1]

LeProf 50.179.245.225 (talk) 06:38, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

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I am in favor of removing the first part of this paragraph and begin with "Hall delved deeply into..." and end with the citation intact. Any objections? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mphsociety (talk • contribs) 03:59, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Multiple issues tag placed...

…because nearly all information contained here is from the primary works written by Hall (via quotation), or from a single biography by Sahagun (that appears to have POV issues), or is from a similarly non-neutral source (PRS Journal). This is in a very sad state with regard to objectivity. LeProf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.179.245.225 (talk) 06:59, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Editorial or unsourced information in footnotes moved to Talk for clarification

Three references fail to serve as references, instead (i) providing further information without clearly indicating the source(s)/page numbers of the in-text statement bearing the citation number or of the further in-reference information, (ii) editorializing via extensive affirming quotations, or (iii) presenting information or analysis amounting to original research, and therefore contributing to the January 2013-dated issue of the article being over-detailed. Specifically:

The following reference text, earlier appearing as reference [16], fails to indicate the page number from which the stated information is taken, and is otherwise quotation-intensive, and is a subject-aggrandizing, POV-questionable editorial on the book that is subject of the subsection (the quotations being taken from the primary religious source), and therefore is unsuitable as neutral content:

• The "Special Foreword" of the Theosophical Edition has a symbol of theosophy (Egyptian Cross in the center of the Star of David, encircled by a snake), and states: "The Theosophical Edition of this work has been prepared as an expression of appreciation for the untiring efforts made by the Theosophical Society and its individual members to keep alight the torch of the Secret Doctrine through an age of spiritual darkness. Theosophy as given to the Western World by Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, an official representative of the Secret Schools, is an objectification of that Ageless Wisdom whose origin is obscured by the mists of cosmic dawn. It is the sincere hope of the author that his book may be of assistance to those now studying "The Secret Doctrine" as expounded by that great occultist of the nineteenth century, our Beloved and Exaulted Brother, H.P.B. A . . . U . . . M . . .", and the "Special Foreword" of the Rosicrucian Edition has a Rosicrucian symbol (the Rosicrucian cross centered within a five-pointed star), and is written by Mrs. Max Heindel, President, The Rosicrucian Fellowship, Oceanside, California, and dated May 1, 1928. She wrote: "The writer deems it a privilege to have the opportunity to write this brief foreword to the Rosicrucian Edition of a work which she feels will stand as a great masterpiece--a volume which contains between its covers a remarkable compendium of the mystical and philosophical teachings of the ancients. Mr. Hall is particularly qualified to interpret the symbolical language of antiquity. He has taken a special interest in the Wisdom Teachings and symbols of the ancient Rosicrucians, Freemasons, and Hermetic philosophers. His investigations have resulted in the present volume with its wealth of little-known philosophical lore. In this book Mr. Hall has placed the secret learning of the ancients and medieval worlds within the reach of the modern seeker after the fundamental verities of life. The ever-increasing popularity of Rosicrucianism today is evidence of the general revival of interest in the Mystery Teachings of the ancients. Mr. Hall's encyclopedia of symbolical philosophy is a most timely contribution, for it unlocks the treasure chests of the past and gives back to mankind the knowledge of the ancient Egyptians, Greeks, and Chaldeans."

The following reference text, earlier appearing as reference [17], fails to indicate the page number from which the stated information is taken, and otherwise presents information/analysis amounting to WP Original Research (no sourcing for the analysis appearing), and contributes to the January 2013-dated issue of the article being over-detailed:

• Currently in possession of the Harry Ransom Center, The University of Texas at Austin, Copy Number 296 does not list the subscriber, a feature which characterizes many other copies. The Ransom Center records identify the owner as Nancy Wilson Ross, who is not one of the original listed subscribers, and as part of her book collection the Center acquired in 1972. Another example, Copy Number 35, offered for sale in November 2012 by H.E.R.M.E.S' Antiquarian book store in Copenhagen, Denmark, is signed by Hall on the limitation page, but not personally dedicated to a subscriber. This raises the possibility that more than 550 copies were printed, or that some subscribers declined to have their names engraved in the copies they purchased.

The following reference text, earlier appearing as reference [18], fails to indicate the page number from which the stated information is taken, and otherwise is information contributing to the January 2013-dated issue of the article being over-detailed:

• The institutions are: The Ashmolean Library, Oxford, Presented by H.E.S.; The British Museum, Presented by A.A.; The Cornish School of Music, Presented by O.P.; The Hollywood Co-Masonic Lodge, No. 523, Presented by Z. R. F.; Iowa Masonic Library, Cedar Rapids, Iowa; Krotona Library; Library of Scottish Rite Bodies, Valley of Los Angeles; Library of the Supreme Council of the 33rd Degree for the Southern Jurisdiction of the U.S.A.; Los Angeles Engraving Company; Los Angeles Public Library; New York Public Library, Presented by A.A.; The Henry L. Palmer Lodge, No. 301; Rosicrucian Fellowship, Los Angeles Study Center; San Francisco Lodge of Perfection No. 1; Seattle Public Library, Presented by O.P.; Tecolote Bookshop; Theosophical Society, San Francisco Lodge; Theosophical Study, Seattle Lodge; The University of Leipzig, Presented by A.A.; The University of Washington, Presented by O.P.; The Vatican Library, Presented by A.F.S.; and The Woman's Century Club, Presented by O.P.

The suitability / value of each of these long, non-citation "references" should be discussed before they are re-introduced into the text; minimally, the specific sources of the information appearing in the text, and of the extra information and analysis presented in the footnote must also appear, so that it is not OR. LeProf 50.179.245.225 (talk) 08:04, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Elephantiasis?

I've read somewhere that elephantiasis made him extremely fat, and he needed 2 chairs to sit down. Is this true, and if so, should we mention it? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:22, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

News coverage

Received some recent news coverage over "Secret Teachings of All Ages" being found on Osama bin Laden's bookshelves: Secrets of Osama bin Laden's library: The mystic, searching book now being misinterpreted as a conspiracy text (Salon.com) etc... AnonMoos (talk) 17:32, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Absurd warning

The warning on the front of the article contains these concerns among others:

• This article may require cleanup ... reliance on ... limited source[s]
• This article relies largely or entirely upon a single source.
• This article improperly uses one or more religious texts as primary sources without referring to secondary sources ...
• This article may rely excessively on sources too closely associated with the subject ...
• This biographical article needs additional citations ...

Do we need a giant banner on the page in order to warn the reader of the same issue five times? -Miskaton (talk) 18:34, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

I removed three of these warnings, two of which I couldn't find any examples of on the page (excessive quotes and citing religious texts as primary source). -Miskaton (talk) 04:50, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Better organize information

Vital biographical information covering many years is missing and too much detailed publisher's information is included about one particular book. That book can have a separate page as it contains very little original writing and is a compendium of research done at libraries; basically it has no original research and is not related to any development or revelation in his intellectual life. He published incorrect information about the ancient Egpytian pharaohs in his book, and it was known as being incorrect by Egyptologists at the time he published it: he obviously did not know what he was talking about and did not care to check with scholarly sources. He just copied a bunch of obscure information in libraries and got some pictures and threw them together. I purchased this book and read it and it was so large and bulky it would not fit on a regular bookshelf and it had nothing really irreplaceable in it: I tore the picture of Count Racokzy out and threw the book away and have not missed it. It is well known that in his later years there was some bizarre and unexplained ongoing behavoir (most are mentioned in the Lachman books) and incidents and suspicious business dealings, including a rewritten will a week before he died, and the doctor refused to sign his death certificate after some unexplained injuries were discovered. 97.76.210.2 (talk) 21:16, 16 September 2015 (UTC)FFE <Gary Lachman's published books incl: "Revolutionaries of the Soul", pg. 89>

'The Secret Teachings of All Ages - An Encyclopedia Outline of Masonic, Hermetic, Qabbalistic and Rosicrucian Symbolic Philosophy'

I added the subtitle of The Secret Teachings of All Ages - An Encyclopedia Outline of Masonic, Hermetic, Qabbalistic and Rosicrucian Symbolic Philosophy. This very important book should have its own article! 2601:589:4705:C7C0:CC25:99AD:493:9246 (talk) 17:04, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

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Relevance of Masonic affiliation

In the Personal Life section of this article there exists a rather chunky paragraph discussing his masonic affiliation, half of which has to do with the Scottish rite. In my opinion, this is a little excessive. A sentence saying he was a member of a lodge and that he achieved the 33rd degree would haver been sufficient, but even then. Wikipædia is a general encyclopædia, not one dedicated to Esoterica or Freemasonry. If there were no references I would remove the entire paragraph. Does anyone else see "the light"? UaMaol (talk) 02:17, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

The symbolism of Freemasonry is discussed in chapter 40 of his book "The Secret Teachings of All Ages"... AnonMoos (talk) 09:30, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

@AnonMoos: And that is relevant, how?... UaMaol (talk)

For Manly P. Hall, Freemasonry was not only one part of "The Secret Teachings of All Ages", but the part which he personally could participate in with other people without joining a small esoteric occult group... AnonMoos (talk) 12:14, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

@AnonMoos: Again, please enlighten me as to how that is relevant?... UaMaol (talk) 01:08, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Sorry dude, but I really don't feel motivated to spell out the obvious in unnecessary detail and at unnecessary length, using a restricted vocabulary of words of one syllable or less. If you really knew something about Manly P. Hall and what he wrote about, then my first comment above would have been more than enough... AnonMoos (talk) 21:02, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

@AnonMoos:I know exactly who the article subject is and have read his books. Your responses are rather vague and don't address my original point as to why there is a rather chunky section dealing with his meeting attendance. His masonic writings were well before he even joined a lodge assuming that the article content is correct. The Secret Teachings of All Ages is an esoteric text, and in my opinion would not meet WP:RS unless it was discussing itself. Wikipædia is a general encyclopædia, not one dedicated to Esoterica or Freemasonry, as I've previously said. UaMaol (talk) 23:31, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

"The Secret Teachings of All Ages" is probably not a reliable source on the true meanings of ancient mythology and such, but it's sure as hell a reliable source on what Manly P. Hall personally considered to be important, and any attempt to pretend otherwise is pointless quibbling. When Freemasonry or occult topics meet Wikipedia notability requirements and other standards of inclusion, then there most definitely can be Wikipedia articles covering them (though not advocating for them, of course). Otherwise, you seem to be following the Tortoise in What the Tortoise Said to Achilles, which is tiresome and useless... AnonMoos (talk) 14:29, 24 December 2021 (UTC)