Talk:Macaronic language

Commments

Would this be better located at macaronic verse? (I just wrote it here because there was demand for it from elsewhere.) Also, there's some stuff under macaroni that needs to be reconciled with this. Doops 03:41, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

Finnegans Wake

Hi, I'm Pedro Felipe from Wikipedia in Spanish. I'm interested in translating this article, and I have a question. Does Finnegans' Wake is a macaronic text? If yes, I think you should say it's the uttermost important example. (I'm afraid I have not the level for writing that information in English). Saludo para todos. Pedro Felipe--200.118.220.229 (talk) 18:48, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Single-word macaronic terms?

I've heard one-word terms such as "Pentium®" or "polysomnograph" described as macaronic, since they are pieced together from elements of two languages. I came to this article hoping to find a list of such terms. Having such a list might [a] be cool and [b] help relieve any sense of teetering on the boundary line between a dictionary article and an encyclopedia article. DSatz 17:33, Feb 25, 2005 (UTC)

Well, I'm unable (^^) to write such a list now, but I heard that these words also could be called hybrids, at least words such as "television"...

Etymology?

I'd like to see some etymology behind the word "macaronic" -- is it the same word as the pasta, or does it have a different origin? Zrajm Wed Feb 22 09:28:11 CET 2006

It has for sure the same root, I mean it's stright derived form "maccheroni" the tubular type of pasta, which is the most common and cheap and popular and simple. In Italian "maccheronico" simply means "a simplyfied thing" Clutcher

In Italian "maccheronico" does NOT mean "a simplyfied thing" (and "maccheroni" is not "the most common and cheap and popular and simple" type of pasta: "spaghetti" are definitely more common, and the price is usually the same for all types...). The word "macaronic" was first used in 1517 by the Italian writer Teofilo Folengo (1491-1544), and since then it is used to denote a language which is deformed and filled with errors by a non-native speaker, due to contamination with his native language ("maccheronico" is instead not used for multilingual mixtures). Although the corrupted Latin used by writers of the XVI century such as Folengo was an intentional parody, "maccheronico" is nowadays most often used to denote unintentional (but systematic and funny) corruption of a foreign language.

See http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Teofilo_Folengo or, for more detailed information, http://www.italica.rai.it/rinascimento/cento_opere/folengo_baldus.htm (in Italian).

[guido.magnano@unito.it] September 24, 2006

Agreed. In Portuguese usage the word "macarrônico" (derived from "macarrão", maccheroni) is an adjective used usually to describe unintentional corruption of a foreign language (usage example: "ele tentava se comunicar num inglês macarrônico"/"he tried to communicate with a macaronic English") -- but not specifically mixture of two or more languages. I always considered the term a sort of slang though; I didn't know it had a well-defined meaning. Still not sure if it has in Portuguese. --LodeRunner (talk) 03:06, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Is it perhaps related to the 18th century use--slang for foppishness--famously exemplified in the song Yankee Doodle? Nathan McKnight -- Aelffin (talk) 14:45, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Bilingual?

What's the difference between a macaronic and a bilingual song? I would have always termed Siúil a Rúin as bilingual but macaronic sounds like a nice new word ;-) El Gringo 04:41, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

My gut would be that "Siúil a Rúin" borders on being a macaronic, but doesn't do quite as much code switching as a proper macaronic. If I remember right, it has English verses and a Gaelic refrain, right? Whereas I tend to think of a macaronic as switching within a single grammatical construct. I'd be interested in hearing from others on this; I'm not at all sure there is a sharp line. -- Jmabel | Talk 16:56, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I can't remember the last time I've personally heard O Canada sung in a single language. Bilingual/macronic (?) renditions are enormously common, but I won't add it to the article (or a link to this article on the anthem's) until there's a clearer consensus here... Samaritan 04:55, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

More Examples of Macronic Verse

The Handbook for Latin Clubs has some interesting macronic verse, in the sense of mixing at the vocabulary and grammatical levels, including a piece that it says "The Journal of Education commends this ingenious poem, written in seven languages— English, French, German, Greek, Latin, Spanish, and Italian— as one of the best specimens of Macaronic verse in existence, and worthy of preservation by all collectors."--Prosfilaes 18:19, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Cut an ad

I cut the following:

• Historia domini Quijoti Manchegui Traducta in latinem macarronicum per Ignatium Calvum cura misae et ollae, a macaronic version of Don Quixote.

The topic might be relevant, but the linked page is just an ad for the book, and gives no examples of its macaronics. It is not a useful link. If someone wants to add mention of the book, and give its publication info & ISBN, fine, but there is no reason to link this vacuous commercial page. - Jmabel | Talk 04:49, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Spanglish macaronic?

Is Spanglish speech or writing considered macaronic? It would seem so, given the definition in the article here, but there's no mention of the Spanish/English mixture. +ILike2BeAnonymous 01:02, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

To be added to the article as soon as I find the time...

Tisi Degli Odassi

Teofilo Folengo, dissolute Benedictine monk Baldus "Le maccheronee" Description of macaronic as literary equivalent of the Italian dish - crude mixture of flour, butter and cheese

Polemo-Middinia inter Vitarvam et Nebernam 1684, William Drummond

Charles G. Leland, Hans Breitmann´s Ballads, 1884 inc. "To a friend studying German"

See also macaronic limericks —Preceding unsigned comment added by Antoinecassar (talk • contribs) 20:12, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

See also: http://thomondgate.net/doc/companion/Companion.htm#macaronic Antoinecassar (talk) 12:57, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

BC and AD

Is this an example? Dating using English Before Christ and Latin Anno Domini. Nitpyck (talk) 20:42, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Europanto

Isn't Europanto in fact a multilingual macaronic? ... said: Rursus (mb_ork³) 08:13, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Macaroni Combat

This being the war-film equivalent of a Spaghetti Western, which typically features Italian and non-Italian actors, generally over-acting in atrociously-dubbed and para-histrionic war genre operas, I can't entirely shake the suspicion that this particular pasta was chosen because of its dual-language associations. Nuttyskin (talk) 15:58, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Macaronic Cityspeak

Although not extensively used in the movie Bladerunner(1983) , cityspeak could be also termed a Macaronic language , it is however not applied in a comical sense. It was considered to be what people would evolve their communication in when left undereducated and as part of a defense mechanism against oppression by law enforcement and people higher up the ladder.17:52, 21 june 2010 (UTC +1) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.198.131.30 (talk)

in music

Hmmm, is any song that mixes 2 or more languages "macaronic"? That's thousands upon thousands of songs from all countries. The most common is the mix of the national or local language with English. Most French pseudo "artists" can't seem to write a song fully in French (which helps them hide their poor knowledge of their native language), but the process is well-used by some, notably by Mylène Farmer. From Japan I can think of many songs by X-Japan using the same process (Tears balances both languages, Forever love has a chorus in English, their last performed song Endless rain has a few lines in Japanese), I could name several Russian groups using it: Сплин notably shows sarcasm about this trend in Англо-Русский Словарь (English-Russian dictionary) which uses 8 English words. The list of bilingual songs using English is literally endless. Concerning bilingual songs not using English in Europe, I can think of Un premier matin (a chorus line in German, the rest in French) by Killerpilze, the French version of Ich kann auch ohne dich). I know there are some Ukrainian-Russian songs and it wouldn't take much effort to find Tatar-Russian, Uzbek-Russian etc. All I'm sayin' is: if all bilingual songs are macaronic, there should be a line about the fact that it's pretty damn common. If they're not, there should be a line explaining why. --2.37.41.63 (talk) 11:56, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

I'll give two examples of what 2.37.41.63 may be referring to. The current version of the page gives Jose Feliciano's "Feliz Navidad" as an example, but I'd say that it isn't humorous macaroni -- at most it is reasonable code switching. An even more egregious example in the current version is Paul McCartney's "Michelle". That's not even code switching - the French in that song is nothing more than a sincere attempt to speak in the girlfriend's language. --Keeves (talk) 20:25, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

naturally occuring macaronic speech

I just realized I often use various types of macaronic speeches, so I can explain the mechanism. Starting with a famous example. Jean-Claude Van Damme, who is a French speaking Belgian leaving in California, is often made fun of in French for his tendency to use English words when speaking to French journalists. In fact this happens because he likes to speak fast, and therefore uses the first word coming to his mind, which is sometimes the English one, due to his frequent use of English. In my case I often use macaronic speech when I don't want to slow down my speech by filtering it for language. As a result I've conjugated Spanish verbs using the Japanese grammar rules while in Japan, thrown Italian words (using the adequate declension) in a Russian conversation while in Italy, and whichever language I used during the previous hours tends to sprinkle my speech in after I switch to another language. I can block this tendency, but it requires efforts and can slow down my speech, depending on the language and the environment (speaking exclusively French in France is not an issue for example). Although this is occurs naturally, I noticed that the language that sprinkles the conversation is always a language known to the person I'm talking to. I know that wiki is not about personal research, I'm just giving some hints of what could be added if one wants to look for studies about naturally occurring macaronic speech, I'm pretty sure the different aspects I noticed in my own speech are pretty common among multilingual people. And of course the example of Van Damme can be used to start a paragraph about it.--2.37.41.63 (talk) 12:40, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't know of a usual term for speech riddled with spontaneous borrowings, of single words as opposed to longer phrases or even full sentences, in bilingual or multilingual individuals, but spontaneous mixing of languages in bilinguals or multilinguals is usually treated under the headwords code-switching or code-mixing. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 11:41, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Attribution of "It's not the fart..."

Greetings. I've altered the article slightly, attributing the quote to rally driver Petter Solberg. Along with several other such wonderful instances of Bad English, this one is claimed by a large percentage to have come from him at some point. I am as of yet unable to find a good solid reference for this, but I am fairly confident in that I first heard this coming from him some time before Subaru stopped doing rally. --Kenneaal (talk) 22:39, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

1950's macaronic books

At least three books, these titled "Fractured French," "Garbled Greek,"and "Liberated Latin" were collected from occasional installments in magazines (I think, Saturday Evening Post or Collier's) during the 1950s in the U.S. I can remember only a few (although Googling turns up some others). Fractured French: Coup de grace/Cut the lawn. Garbled Greek: Omega nu pi/Let's have lemon meringue for a change. Liberated Latin: Status quo ante bellum/ No, I don't think Auntie's gained any weight. Further research will reward those who, like me, haven't enough to do.Jim Stinson (talk) 22:17, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Hybrid Place Names

Are hybrid place names, such as those place names in the UK, US & Canada ending in -thorpe or, for example, Waugoshance (the name of a point/peninsula near the tip of Michigan's Lower Peninsula), which is a combination of the Anishinaabemowin word waugoosh and the French word anse, macaronic?Drdpw (talk) 18:31, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Spaghetti Code

The comment about computer code is strange. 'Spaghetti code' refers not to code written in many languages, but to code with a complex structure. Understanding such code is like trying to follow an individual strand of spaghetti in a plate of spaghetti. Such code is hard to understand, and likely to have bugs. The term dates from the days when GOTO was a part of most languages. I've never heard "spaghetti code" used to refer to code that mixes languages in one file, and indeed it's rare to find such code in an environment where one knows one of the languages and not the other. Anniepoo (talk) 07:28, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Is this referring to REST? If so, that would be a better section title. An example of different programming languages combined in a REST expression would also be nice.166.137.101.159 (talk) 15:12, 20 August 2014 (UTC)Collin237

Greek

The dog Greek involving Pauline is perfectly straightforward macaronic language. There may be reasons to remove it but Wikipedia generally doesn't censor and it does fall under the rubrik of this page. — LlywelynII 22:47, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Ah. Reviewing sources, it's possible that it isn't macaronic dog Greek by de Vigny but an actual direct quote from Xenophon. (Anyone want to go check if it is being faithfully quoted?) That would make it less straightforwardly macaronic, but (a) the Swedish example certainly is and (b) it's still in the ballpark and should be mentioned here, with its link to the larger article. We shouldn't overly expand that area or give it undue importance, but the maid Pauline made an appearance in Finnegan's Wake so she's a notable example. — LlywelynII 00:52, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

This should not come under Unintentional. As far as I know, this is conscious pun, intentional schoolyard Greek, from schoolboys and not from Xenophon. A reference mentions the quotation and then mentions also Alfred de Vigny. This does not mean that Vigny ever quoted this sentence. A Finnegans wiki is about language. The page on this quotation does not say that it is quoted in Finnegans Wake. Gérard Genette and al. mention the sentence without explanation. It is indeed a nice and well known (in French) example of macaronic language, but not unintentional and all references are void. --Dominique Meeùs (talk) 10:52, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

I did download the text of Finnegans Wake from the Internet Archive. There are two occurrences of Pauline, but nothing to do with this. Nowhere ouk, or elabon, or polin. I have also the book and saw nowhere anything composed in Greek characters. So this all looks like an urban legend. This said, again this is an interesting example of pseudo-classical, schoolboy’s macaronic. This part should be kept but rewritten (without Finnegans). (I am allowed to write should be, instead of doing, because English is not my mother language.) As speaking French, I understand la bonne Pauline as our good old beloved Pauline, not a maid called Pauline. --Dominique Meeùs (talk) 14:41, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Well! Found. The section (you may number it 2.2) beginning with As we there are where are we are we there… appears as scholarly with notes in left and right margins. On p. 269 indeed, left margin: οὐκ ἔλαϐον πόλιν. Referenced in http://www.finwake.com/1024chapter22/prevod269.htm (see ouk elabon polin) and http://www.rosenlake.net/fw/FWconcordance/fw-concordance-other.html (see Greek at the end). --Dominique Meeùs (talk) 19:19, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

"The Great Dictator" - Macaronic??

In The Great Dictator the title character, Adenoid Hynkel, most of the time speaks a 'nonsense language', not some mixture of German and English. There is the occasional very short sequence that can be identified. If AH really spoke some macaronic mixture of English and German people with a good knowledge of both languages would be able to understand what he says, but apart from the odd word or phrase, they can't. I think the 'example' should be removed. Norvo (talk) 04:16, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

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Translate the examples, please

It'd make more sense if the people who added some of the examples could translate the non-English parts of the samples. Now, I'm a polyglot, but unfortunately I don't speak Middle-English-mixed-with-Latin (!) or Irish (and yet the samples seem to expect that I do). Snowgrouse (talk) 16:34, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Franglais

there is no mention of Franglais subject of Let's parler Franglais! by Miles Kington also encountered in other comedic articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.37.162.56 (talk) 08:34, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

References

Does La boheme count?

There's a scene in act 2 where the artists switch back and forth between Italian and Latin.

MARCELLO: Dio, che concetti rari!

COLLINE: Digna est intrari.

SCHAUNARD: Ingrediat si necessit.

COLLINE: Io non do che un accessit!

Not sure if we should mention it in article text or not. SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:57, 23 July 2024 (UTC)