Talk:Ludwell–Paradise House/GA1

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Nominator: Pbritti (talk · contribs) 22:23, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Rollinginhisgrave (talk · contribs) 10:04, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

I'll review this. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 10:04, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

General comments

I'm really excited to review this, thankyou for the opportunity.

I usually do a ce as I go through articles to avoid listing typos etcetera, but I made more changes than usual, I hope you can have a look over them and see if they're alright with you. I've left the review there for now, I'll continue once you have a chance to address the concerns. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 11:23, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Your changes are noted; there are (maybe) two I might like see reverted, but that's something I'll sit on for a bit! Thanks for jumping right in! ~ Pbritti (talk) 20:43, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Very happy with your reverts/clarifications, thanks for sparing some time even though you're busy. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 03:59, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Continued review and replied to comments. If I don't reply to a comment it just means I agree with you. I had a more major concern at the end concerning WP:GACR #3, I hope you can address it. Again, take your time, there's no rush, tell me if you disagree and we can discuss. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 16:17, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Finished reviewing, congratulations on writing this great article Pbritti. I'm sorry it took so long to review. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 09:26, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Prose and content

• "brickwork indicates the entire building was completed simultaneously": Is this in the body?
  • Yep! Final sentence of the first paragraph of the Design section. ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:02, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
• "Though their legal claim to the house was unfounded" more exposition is needed
• "and Lee" irrelevant
  • There's contention that Lee was actually the legal owner of the home when it was seized, so the mention of both Paradise and Lee here reflects this nebulous legal status. ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:03, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
• "One of Philip Barziza's sons, the Confederate officer and Texas politician Decimus et Ultimus Barziza, would be born there" weird tense, reword to past for consistency
• "Decimus (nicknamed "Dessie")" why is "Dessie" not mentioned in the topic article?
  • That article is less complete. I'm using sources that could be used to supplement that article. Might get around to improving it someday. ~ Pbritti (talk) 01:58, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
• "plan to restore Williamsburg to its 18th-century appearance" was his plan really to restore Williamsburg to its 18th-century appearance? If that's true that's crazy
• "glazed headers" What are headers?
  • Defined in the body. ~ Pbritti (talk) 01:58, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

This doesn't matter, as 1) most people only read the lead, and 2) summary style says the lead should be the most readable part of the article. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 16:17, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

• "and fronted to Duke of Gloucester Street" Does it still not?
• "Because the eastern lot did escheat to the city like the other two..." the other two? Also: gloss on escheat. This sentence is quite confusing.
• "Some later thinking–including by Colonial Williamsburg restoration architects Perry, Shaw and Hepburn–" -> "later restoration architects". A lot of e-ink spilled over the history of dating the house which appears to be unnecessary detail to go into.
• "took over his inheritance upon coming of age" -> "was old enough to control his inheritance". A bit of archaic language being used throughout, which is charming, but can be more complex than it needs to be.
  • "coming of age" is the technical term, with legal connotations. ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:00, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
• "constructed in 1752–1753" constructed in or constructed between?
• Writing out Philip Ludwell III's full name every time: after "the year Philip Ludwell III took over his inheritance upon coming of age"he can simply be referred to as Ludwell.
• "In 1755, Philip Ludwell III was advertising the house for renters" -> "by 1755"?
• "the "brick house", as it was identified in correspondence," too much detail
• ", though these efforts were not immediately successful" redundant given following sentence.
• Unclear what Note 6 adds.
  • There is actually a minor implied discrepancy between some sources less intensely focused on the Paradises and those that offer general histories of Williamsburg's structures. I appended note 6 to head off concerns that might arise from sources that may implicitly dispute whether or not John Paradise actually resided in the home. It's something that only makes sense if you read more of the research, hence my relegation of the quote to a note. ~ Pbritti (talk) 01:58, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
• correspondence between William Lee and Joseph Prentis indicate this kind of attribution is only necessary if its contentious; instead of "By 1785, correspondence between William Lee and Joseph Prentis indicate Lee was again renting out the brick house, then to Louis Dormore; Lee's correspondence with Benjamin Waller in 1787 suggest that Dormore remained a tenant through 1786." -> By 1785, Lee was renting out the house to Louis Dormore, who remained a tenant through the following year.
• almost ten years after her husband's death. introduce that he died before referencing it.
• "a mahogany table that had played host to Jefferson and Johnson" That I am asking this reflects badly on me, but could you tell me how a table can host Jefferson and Johnson?
  • Idiomatically, items can play host. Both were guests who sat at the table at some point. I may rephrase when I have the relevant source in front of me. ~ Pbritti (talk) 20:44, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

You're right, I was dumb. That being said... WP:IDIOM Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 16:17, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

You're right. Please check if my fix of at which both Jefferson and Johnson had sat is sufficient. ~ Pbritti (talk) 20:08, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Definitely better, but now that I'm coming back to this: I think it's a silly detail to include. Did she also bring the doormat that they dusted their shoes on? etc Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 02:17, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Dinner tables are fairly significant items at this point. It's notable when one is conveyed from Europe to the Americas in this period, doubly so that it hosted prominent figures on both sides of the Atlantic. ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:55, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Didn't mean to contest her bringing a dinner table, just the details added for colour. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 05:44, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

• In one episode, she took guests to the unhitched carriage Why was the previous sentence attributed as a rumour/claim and this one isn't/verifies it?
  • Done.
• at the asylum that had held his grandmother -> at the Williamsburg Public Hospital
  • Done.
• Latin–when what is this dash doing here?
  • Nothing good. I've removed it. ~ Pbritti (talk) 20:08, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
• the home he was born in WP:ELEGANT
  • Mulled replacing with "his birthplace", but went with the house. ~ Pbritti (talk) 20:08, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
• Dessie Barziza would pass the home he was born in as he moved with other Confederate units during the day preceding the 1862 Battle of Williamsburg. This seems like a trivial mention of the house, and unnecessary detail. In fact this whole paragraph appears to be excessive detail: why is there a biography of a man born in the house thrown into a history of a building? I think I haven't been canny enough with this: the history is of the building; not its occupants. If events are described, they should be relating to the house. I think I will leave it there as most of what I have reviewed and will review is impacted by this.
  • This is consistently remarked upon in histories of the house that consider its context in Williamsburg's history. The house is largely discussed elsewhere for its colonial narrative and restoration, but the sources that touch upon its late 19th-century developments linger on Decimus. ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:00, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Independent of whether histories of the house are mentioning it, do you think for Wikipedia the article is staying on topic by going into more biographical details of Decimus? I would say they are writing for different audiences. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 02:17, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Biographical details are relevant in the context of a house to a greater degree than in the context of other structures. I'll tighten that paragraph, but it's relevant material. ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:55, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm going to bring this to 3O, if only for my own edification for future reviews. I'll particularly bring their attention to a sentence I think exemplifies the issues I'm having: is Dessie Barziza would pass the house as he moved with other Confederate units during the day preceding the 1862 Battle of Williamsburg too much detail for a history of a house? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 05:44, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

• Responding to the request for a third opinion. Given that we have an article on Barziza, I would personally not provide this much detail. If we had no article on him, I can see the argument for at least a footnote, but given that most of this occurs outside the dwelling, it's covered in detail elsewhere, and it's not necessary for understanding the subject, I agree that this is too much detail.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 17:29, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

• @Crisco 1492: Thanks for the input! Done. ~ Pbritti (talk) 23:46, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 11:23, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

@Rollinginhisgrave: thank you for the review! I'll work through your comments when I can, but I will not be able to respond to this review in full this week. Expect some responses to most of your comments over the next 48 hours, but I do apologize if most of my replies don't appear until Monday of next week. ~ Pbritti (talk) 20:21, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

No rush! Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 20:29, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

I have not forgotten about this! Please bear with me, as I have a decent excuse (I'll message you privately to explain my situation if you'd like). I'll perform some corrections late today and early tomorrow UTC. ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:47, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

No worries at all, I promise I'm not rushing you. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 18:05, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@Rollinginhisgrave: Back in America tomorrow; will get a lot done then. ~ Pbritti (talk) 21:45, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Back in the saddle

Sorry for putting it up for 2O, didn't realise it would take that long. Thankyou for your patience. Starting over.

• Is there a reason why the title and article uses an en dash? It appears the sources are hyphenating Ludwell-Paradise House.
  • I would use a hyphen off-Wiki, but MOS:DASH says that titles with two nouns that don't modify each other are separated by an en dash rather than a hyphen (enWiki's MOS is quite confusing on en/em dashes and hypens).

In that case, the references should be made consistent as some are hyphenated and some use en dashes (although this isn't GACR).

• gloss William Lee, Marie Louise Stewart, Joseph Prentis
  • Managed this for Lee and Prentis. Stewart appears to be a local woman who was in the house at the time of its transfer and I lack any good description of her.
• Though their legal claim to the house was unfounded introduce this, i.e. "Although they made an unfounded legal claim..." etc.
• Seems odd to put "Paradise House" as a former name when the first sentence indicates it is a current name
  •  Done.
• would serve as a home to would house
  •  Done.
• Note 2 feels like you're trying to throw a lot in that's off topic. All of it can be cut. Perhaps Philip Ludwell II was then resident at the large Green Spring Plantation, located six miles to Williamsburg's west. can be retained.
  •  Done.
• Note three should be integrated into the text, cutting most of it, i.e. "later analysis ordered by the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation used dendrochronology on the timbers... and dated"
  •  Done.
• inherited his Williamsburg properties. grammar
  •  Done.
• Philip Ludwell III served in the House of Burgesses, representing Jamestown, and was the last of the male Ludwell family in Virginia unsure what the function of the first half of the sentence is
  • Removed.
• a subject of dispute disputed?
  • Done
• I understand what Note 5 is doing, but it reads as a non-sequitur
• John Paradise's name would come to be applied to the structure It wasn't already?
  • It is not precisely clear when "Paradise House" became a name for the building, but it occurred sometime around this period.
    • Rephrased.
• Note 6 appears to just be repeating the previous sentences
  • Fair. I've nixed it. It's a stellar quote, but I couldn't justify including it in its entirety.
• By 1785, correspondence between William Lee and Joseph Prentis indicate Lee was again renting out the brick house mix of tenses here
• Who is Louis Dormore?
• Decimus Barziza would pass the house as he moved with other Confederate units during the day preceding the 1862 Battle of Williamsburg. He would survive the war and cut
• and the college's president, Julian A. C. Chandler, this isn't quite a garden-path sentence, but it's pretty close with the ands
• John D. Rockefeller Jr. visited why do you use his full name here after just referring to him as Rockefeller earlier in the sentence?
• The end of the above sentence is a bit confusing, the reader's response is "... and? so?"
• Steward had sought to sell the house for two years. I know it's a silly reading, but my initial reading of this was "she wanted to sell it for only two years? Isn't that renting?" can you reword it to avoid this ambiguity?
• I would cut Note 12, but this is not as strongly held as other information I believe is more tangential
  • Referring to the possibly 17th-cent chimney(s)? I'll keep it for now, but let me know if you have a change of heart or suggest an alternative approach
• What is a terminal chimneys ?
  • Rephrased.
• The chimneys were altered from their original form until the 1931 restoration could you tell me more about this?
  • The source is a bit vague, but take a look and see if what I've added is good.

• Introduce the Frenchman's Map as it is only previously mentioned in a caption of an image.
  •  Done.
• A 1926 photo of the Ludwell–Paradise House taken

Suggestions

• Some later thinking I think "thinkers" would work better here
  • Went with "opinions"

Sources

• Would be good to link The Eighteenth-Century Houses of Williamsburg: An Architectural History as the 1970 ed seems to include the same info as the 1960 ed (and largely on the same pages).
• The Rockefellers at Williamsburg: I believe the subtitle should be "backstage" rather than "backstory". It's also on the Internet Archive
• As with Creating Colonial Williamsburg
• As with Civil War Williamsburg
• As with the 1976 edition of Colonial Williamsburg: Its Buildings and Gardens which has the information on the same pages
• As with Colonial Williamsburg by Kopper
• As with A link among the days
• As with The Restoration of Colonial Williamsburg in Virginia
• As with Treasures of American folk art
  • Archive.org is down and may be for some time following their recent travails. Will add the archived links once I can verify everything.

Spot check

• [2]: Whiffen Y, Reps AGF
• [8]: Y (you should give page 360 as location)
• [16]: clock can you quote this for me?
  • "It must have been about the end of her seventh year in Williamsburg that there occurred an incident which even her most tolerant and respectful neighbors could not overlook. Some friends of Mrs. Paradise were invited to take a drive with her in her coach. When they arrived, they were politely escorted by their hostess to the carriage-house and requested to enter the carriage, to which no horses had as yet been hitched. After some moments, the Negro servant, Henry, entered and at Mrs. Paradise's command began to draw the carriage back and forth along the floor. An hour of this solemn ritual elapsed before Mrs. Paradise announced that the drive was over and permitted her guests to dismount. [Paragraph break] It could not have been very long after this they moved her away from the 'Paradise House' to another house [...] This was the Eastern State Hospital for the Insane."
• [20]: Hudson Jr Y, Stevens Y, Shepperson AGF
• [25]: Y
• [30]: Y
• [35]: Y
• [40]: clock can you quote this for me?
  • "The interior was bereft of most of its early woodwork; antique material, salvaged from an eighteenth-century Virginia house, was installed when it was restored as a showplace for Abby Aldrich Rockefeller's folk art collection in 1935."
• [45]: AGF
• [50]: AGF

Other

• Stable Y
• Neutral Y
• Broad / summary style clock some concerns for latter, once above is addressed will be fine
• No OR / COPYVIO clock pending requested quotes; earwig is fine at 27.5% (mostly quotes, source names)
• Images appropriately captioned / attributed Y (you did take all the modern pictures), all others are correctly labelled as PD

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 04:08, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

@Rollinginhisgrave: Thank you so much for coming back to this. Fairly certain I've addressed everything, so let me know if some issues persist or have arisen since your reviews. I very much enjoy cooperating with you and have been delighted by your articles on chocolate. ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:02, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Pbritti Thankyou for your amendments, I'm happy with everything. Hopefully when (if) the Internet Archive comes back online those links can be added, else we can move to pass. I'm very grateful I've been able to work with you, I'm sorry again this process got drawn out so much by the 2O. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 09:46, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.