Talk:Low German

Vowel Chart

I have, at least temporarily, removed the following vowel chart:

The list given represents the phonology of the Plautdietsch dialect.

IPA	Description	word
monophthongs
i~iː	Close front unrounded vowel	hia
ɪ	Near-close near-front unrounded vowel	Kjint
ɛ	Open-mid front unrounded vowel	met
æ	Near-open front unrounded vowel	Kjoakj
ɒ	Open back rounded vowel	Gott
ʊ	Near-close near-back rounded vowel	Bock
y	Close front rounded vowel	Hüs
ʌ~ɐ	Open-mid back unrounded vowel, Near-open central vowel	Lost
ɜ~ɜː	Open-mid central unrounded vowel	ferhäa
ə	Schwa	schmäare
e	Close front unrounded vowel	Tän

Plautdietsch is a mixture of Low Prussian, itself a Low German dialect with Baltic influence, and Dutch that underwent further Russian influence as a minority language. It is so utterly non-indicative of the general phonology Low-German that having only this chart in a section on Low German phonology is worse than nothing.

Here is a vowel chart that was for Northern Low Saxon that was deleted for no apparent reason on 2009-10-16. I don't entirely agree with it, e.g. the long a as ɒː ~ oː seems wrong to me and the very conspicuous rounding of the short i is not mentioned; but in my mind, is a far better starting point. Said with all due caution, Northern Low Saxon is generally regarded as the most representative Low German dialect and it is not unreasonable to take this dialect as a reference:

Northern Low German (Low Saxon) dialects:

IPA	Description	word	meaning
monophthongs
i ~ iː	Close front unrounded vowel	hier, mi	here, me
ɪ	Near-close near-front unrounded vowel	Kind, ik	child, I
u ~ uː	Close back rounded vowel	Huus	house
ʊ	Near-close near-back rounded vowel	mutt	must
y ~ yː	Close front rounded vowel	Hüs’	houses
ʏ	Near-close near-front rounded vowel	Lück	gap
ɛ	Open-mid front unrounded vowel	met, Bedd	with, bed
e ~ eː ~ ɛː	Close-mid front unrounded vowel or Open-mid front unrounded vowel	geven, Tähn	to give, tooth
o ~ oː	Open-mid back unrounded vowel, Close central rounded vowel	hoog	high
ɔ	Open back rounded vowel	Pott, Bock	pot, buck
ø ~ øː ~ œː	Close-mid front rounded vowel or Open-mid front rounded vowel	över, œver	over
œ	Open-mid front rounded vowel	Pött	pots
ɒː ~ oː	Open back rounded vowel or Close-mid back rounded vowel	Saat	seed
a	Open front unrounded vowel	Katt	cat

Short vowels are slightly lengthened before nasals (m, n, ng) and liquids (l, r). The sequence /ar/ sounds like in Australian English; e.g. Karr [kʰaː] 'cart' like Australian English "car" [kʰaː].

Languages in the lede

@Naramaru: Mentioning only the Standard German name in the lede to the exclusion of at least Standard Dutch makes no sense. The language has an official status in the Netherlands, just like in Germany.

I don't understand the "Spanish, Portuguese, Japanese, Chinese, Arabic, Suaheli" part. Low German is a recognized minority language in Mexico, Bolivia, Paraguay and Brazil. It's safe to add at least Spanish and Portuguese (not counting other languages spoken in the first three countries, besides Spanish). Sol505000 (talk) 14:38, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Hi!

1. I wouldn't mind if the pronunciation were moved into the note and the brackets in the lead were removed. But it was removed and not moved. However, i also don't have a problem with mentioning the common High German name (Plattdeutsch) which is also cognate to the native name (Plattdütsch etc.) and the source for an English name.

2. Do you mean real Low German, or do you refer to de:Pomerano (there called a "Mischsprache", i.e. a mixed language) or Plautdietsch (in ISO 639-3 pdt and a different language than nds = Low Saxon)?

--Naramaru (talk) 15:09, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

FWIW: regardless of ISO-codes, Plautdietsch emerged from the historical Low German dialect continuum. The full dialect continuum has ceased to exist post-1945, but Plautdietsch is still quite intelligible to speakers of contemporary eastern Low German varieties. –Austronesier (talk) 15:48, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Keep the lede clean. @Naramaru (and your other accounts here: Ozarkha, Tilsia, Joltsbiped, Syletha and Gelidona; among others) There is no need, whatsoever, for turning it into a wiktionary page. Vlaemink (talk) 17:59, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

There are varieties missing

If you look at file:Map_of_the_Low_German_Dialects.svg, there are two varieties (14) Low Bergish, see Bergish dialects, (but see also Limburgish) and (15) Meuse-Rhenish, see Meuse-Rhenish, (but see also Brabantian) which do not appear in the list here. I don't know where they should go in the taxonomy, so I didn't add them myself, but they should be added by someone who knows what they are doing. Thank you!--91.64.210.178 (talk) 13:20, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

• No, they don't. Please read Low German#Nomenclature (with my bold):

There are different uses of the term "Low German":

1. A specific name of any West Germanic varieties that neither have taken part in the High German consonant shift nor classify as Low Franconian or Anglo-Frisian; this is the scope discussed in this article.
2. A broader term for the closely related, continental West Germanic languages unaffected by the High German consonant shift, nor classifying as Anglo-Frisian, and thus including Low Franconian varieties.

--Thesmp (talk) 13:29, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Old Saxon in Holstein

Why isn't western Holstein included in the map called Old Saxon speaking area? Also, wasn't Old Saxon spoken in all of Holstein before the arrival of the Slavic people? 62.113.194.157 (talk) 13:18, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

There wasn’t any language called Old Saxon before the arrival of Slavic people. Do you have a source for your other claim?—Ermenrich (talk) 13:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

The wikipedia page dedicated to Old Saxon includes all of Holstein in the first map shown in its page. Even if this wasn't true, won't western Holstein (Holstein, Dithmarschen and Stormarn) still be part of the Old Saxon speaking area? Considering the limes saxoniae ran through the middle of Holstein? 62.113.194.159 (talk) 13:47, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

"German Low German language" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect German Low German language has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 April 11 § German Low German language until a consensus is reached. Utopes _{(talk / cont)} 05:49, 11 April 2024 (UTC)