Talk:Lovecraftian horror

This is an archived copy of the discussion from Talk:H. P. Lovecraft which got this article started:

Time to break off pop culture?

Much of this article is dedicated, not to Lovecraft, but to the pop culture trappings of Lovecraftian horror. Is it, perhaps, time to slice off large hunks of the end of this article to crate that one? If no one has any strong feelings against, I'll probably be bold sometime in the next week or so... -Harmil 17:38, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

I've felt like ripping out every two bit singer and webcomic that once made a toss-off reference to Lovecraft. But moving them to their own article would probably be the more friendly option. --Prosfilaes 18:25, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

This work is now done. Feel free to go poke at the result at Lovecraftian horror. I'm sure it could use work, especially in adding information on Lovecraft-influenced novels. -Harmil 16:57, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Does anyone know of any English novels who trace a majority of their literary influence to Lovecraft? I mean, we have plenty of pop culture, short story and videogame notes, but not much in the way of...has -anyone- ever actually written a novel in the vein of Lovecraftian horror? 71.195.86.253 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:34, 14 March 2010 (UTC).

Mythos vs. genre

I think this article is good, and a split between HPL's own work and the many derivatives thereof is a sensible idea, but perhaps some of the pop-culture contents should be moved further to References_to_the_Cthulhu_mythos (which already duplicates much of this anyway) so the contents better match the title. For instance, I don't think Something Positive is really 'Lovecraftian horror'. Maybe leave this page for Lovecraftian horror as a genre, including the Lovecraft-inspired works that are themselves Lovecraftian horror, and move/delete the rest? --Calair 23:46, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

I could see moving anything from here to References_to_the_Cthulhu_mythos which used specific Lovecraftian mythos elements, and moving anything from there to here which doesn't. For example, In the Mouth of Madness makes no references to the mythos, but is certainly Lovecraftian horror. Same goes for Hellboy. Are you up for doing the merge in both directions? -Harmil 00:37, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

One other thought: I tried to make this page prose where I could (it's not List of Lovecraft-influenced fiction), and I'd rather see the sections that are lists - which I moved from H. P. Lovecraft - turned into histories of the influence of the genre. If no one else does that work, I probably will in the next few weeks. -Harmil 00:41, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

OK, I moved some stuff over. In the end there was less to move than I'd expected, but I tried to make the remainder more relevant to this page, showing how the RPGs mentioned incorporate Lovecraftian themes and removing the ones that just drop Mythos names and have an occasional tentacle in the artwork. I largely left the film section alone because I don't know enough to do much with it, but I don't think movies should be moved from here solely because they contain specific mythos elements.

If they have Lovecraftian themes they belong here (Mouth of Madness), if they drop mythos names they belong on the References page (Army of Darkness), if they do both (e.g. Dagon) then they're relevant to both. But since this page is more of a discussion, and the References one is more of a list, duplication shouldn't be too much of an issue; we're using them in a different way here. Does that sound reasonable? --Calair 01:42, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Very nice work. I like it. As for the movies, I'm sure there's more to be done. When I have time to think about it, I'll come back and see what I can do. -Harmil 04:27, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

You guys have GOT to check out DOTA, the Warcraft 3 custom map. ALOT of it's names and items etc. are derived from Lovecraft. I mean, come on, an item called the Necronomicon? As if that's not a direct tribute to Lovecraft.

It's a super popular game as well, it's just been accepted as a proper game in CAL, so, it can only go up from here. =)

Lovecraftian vs. Lovecraftean

I'm almost certain that scholars like S.T. Joshi, etc. tend to use Lovecraftean rather than Lovecraftian (don't have my books on hand to check at work). To my eyes, it also looks more aesthetically proper. Should there be a page rename? --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 04:05, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

I would be opposed to such a move. The common usage is so weighted toward "Lovecraftian" that there is no comparison at all. For example, hplovecraft.com, chaosium, and the H. P. Lovecraft entry all use "Lovecraftian". Searches on google show 65,000 hits for Lovecraftian and 500 hits for Lovecraftean (which suggests, "Did you mean: Lovecraftian").

There may be some scholars who chose another term (almost certainly to dissociate themselves from popular horror and avoid the stigma that results from such an association in academic circles), and that term might deserve a redirect and a footnote if you can find some references, but it's certainly not the primary usage. -Harmil 21:29, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't know if it's just an attempt at disassociation; -ean has certainly been used in similar fashion elsewhere (Charles Fort gives us 'Fortean', for instance). "Lovecraftean" also looks more aesthetically proper to me (partly because 'Lovecrafte' works fine as an archaic version of the same name, and from there -ean is the natural construction).

But overall, established usage strongly favours -ian, and that's the decider. The -ean spelling should be acknowledged, but not by moving the page. --Calair 23:44, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Time for citations

Ever since I created this page, it's been in the back of my mind that I need to come back and cite the hell out of it, and now appears to be a good time. If anyone knows of any particularly obscure, and yet reliable sources for the information that we have here, please feel free to contribute them. -Harmil 22:00, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Video games

As is typical for any article containing a list, the video games section attracts a plethora of "oh, I know one too!" types of edits. For the rest of this article, that problem has been mitigated by turning lists into prose. I'm not an avid player of video games (though I've played some on the list), so I'm not sure that I'm the best person to do it, but it would be great if someone could update the video games section in this way. Remember that it's always reasonable to simply remove examples. The goal of this page is not to be an authoritative list of references to the mythos or even of true Lovecraftian horror. The goal is to explain the topic of lovecraftian horror and its impacts on popular culture to the reader. If an example is weak, feel free to toss it. IMHO, there are really only 2 or 3 video games that are truly iconic works of Lovecraftian horror, anyway. -Harmil 18:57, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, since no one else was interested, I took a stab at it. Thoughts? -Harmil 14:42, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

It works well at streamlining the article and refocusing it towards its original purpose, but I can't help but feel that the information would've been useful to _someone_, and the list version should probably have been spun off into its own article. Also, although this version highlights some of the heavyweights, like Alone in the Dark or The Lurking Horror, Eternal Darkness--one of the most famous Lovecraftian horror games, and one that intentionally largely develops its own Lovecraft-oid mythos instead of borrowing the Cthulhu mythos--is conspiciously absent. Planning to correct the latter part myself.Devilot 05:54, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

If you want to start a List of Lovecraftian video games, and then modify the Video games section of this article to start with {{main|List of Lovecraftian video games}}, I would have no problem with it, but that's not the purpose of this article. -15:53, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I never said it was. In fact, quite the contrary. I merely added Eternal Darkness as it was high-profile and helped flesh out the threadbare paragraph on Lovecraft-influenced console games. Although it wasn't influential in the evolution of Lovecraftian horror games, neither was Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth. Unless you say that Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth was influential for being the first high-profile, "mainstream" directly-Lovecraft-based console game. In which case, Eternal Darkness qualifies for similar reasons, and also got a better critical response. And, unlike Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth, was a console exclusive. In fact, as this article is about Lovecraftian horror, not the Cthulhu Mythos, if we had to have only one console game listed, Eternal Darkness would be the better choice. It may not be directly based on the Cthulhu Mythos, but it came earlier, was console-exclusive, higher-profile, and garnered a better critical response, all while being just as based in Lovecraftian horror, if not the Cthulhu Mythos, as Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth.Devilot 17:00, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I think you're starting to wander away from the topic of the article, and into the history of console video games. The section on video games in this article is not a list. It discusses the evolution of Lovecraftian influences on video games, and touches on each of the major types of platform from early PC games to consoles. The fact taht an example is cited for each one is rather beside the point. Did this other game actually change the way Lovecraftian influences were portrayed in console games, or was it just a popular game that happened to have some Lovecraftian elements? -Harmil 17:56, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello, I'm surprised noone listed the X-Com video game seies, which is clearly inspired by Cthulhu mythos and sometimes cites it explicitly. I can provide the text if you wish. Cpradier (talk) 10:55, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Arkham Horror

The section on games should also mention the Arkham Horror board game. I'm not sufficiently familiar with the game (I've only played it once) to write a passage about it, but I encourage someone more knowledgeable than me to do so. Pat Berry 07:37, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Possession, with Isabelle Adjani could be added to the movie list

There is some close links I think. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.225.49.61 (talk) 16:09, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Video games: could use more on modern mixes

Many modern games mix fantasy sub-genres. I know this intuitively and from experience, but I have no good references to cite. Anyone know of any? The best example that comes to mind is World of Warcraft, which is high fantasy on its face, but has a number of specifically Lovecraftian storylines (the "Old Gods" are directly based on Lovecraft's concepts, and their storyline is one of the primary movers of the events taking place in the world). -Miskaton (talk) 16:09, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion from a HPLian fan : re-organise this entry

Why not redirect this entry under the title Lovecraftiana just as Sherlockiana with the following internal org. :

Chapter 1 : the Lovecraft legacy : would include "origin", "HPL horror", ....

Chapter 2 : ( the cirle ) : friends, HPL scholarship, collab , followers,...

Chapter 3 :the Lovecraft-mania : games, movies, cameo apparences of HPL in horror/fantasy lit.,etc ..

Chapter 4 The community : links with the gothic comm (?),the fans community/communities, forged Necronomicon, etc ...

Cthulhu Ftaghn ! Ya Ya Shub Niggurath ! --Phil from Brussels 14:45, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Video game section: popularity

The final paragraph of the section on Lovecraftian video games states that Lovecraftian-styled video games have not generally been as successful as high fantasy-styled games. This may or may not be true (and it's arguably less so now than it was in the past), the only source cited for support doesn't back up this claim at all, IMO.

The article cited only mentions Lovecraft in one paragraph, and the paragraph in question only states that Lovecraft's style of horror/fantasy (like Robert E. Howard's) found more popularity after his death. The source does compare Howard-esque "swords and sorcery" fantasy to Tolkien-esque "high fantasy", and argues that the latter has been more influential in the games industry. Which makes our article's reference to "high fantasy, swords-and-sorcery model games", conflating the two styles that the NYT article is explicitly contrasting, a little questionable. – Sean Daugherty (talk) 02:35, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Videogames: Mass Effect

Bioware's Sci-Fi installment introduces us to an ancient race of machines that annihilates all sentient life on the galaxy, every 50.000 years, the speech of one of them shows marked lovecraftian influencie, which I'll quote:

"-Sovereign: Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh, you touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding. There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it. I am beyond your comprehension. I am Sovereign.

-Shepard: Sovereign isn't just some Reaper ship Saren found. It's an actual Reaper!

-Sovereign: Reaper? A label created by the Protheans to give voice to their destruction. In the end, what they chose to call us is irrelevant. We simply... are. Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything. /.../ My kind transcends your very understanding. We are each a nation - independent, free of all weakness. You cannot grasp the nature of our existence. We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite. Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten, we will endure. We are legion. The time of our return is coming. Our numbers will darken the sky of every world. You cannot escape your doom. I am the Vanguard of your destruction. This exchange is over..." --190.21.70.32 (talk) 14:49, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

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Night Vale

I personally cannot source enough information to add this myself, but isn't Welcome to Night Vale an excellent addition? Considering the makers emphasize their influence from H. P. Lovecraft? Zkidwiki (talk) 06:47, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

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Brian Aldiss The Saliva Tree

This Nebula award winning pastiche by Brian Aldiss. with its obvious Color Out Of Space and Dunwich Horror influences surely merits a mention in the Literature section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.37.101.123 (talk) 12:45, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

Major Issues

Ouch, I have made a couple of small changes but really the article feels almost salvageable in current state. The major issue is a failure to distinguish "lovecraftian horror" as a distinct genre of "horror" with its own literary/film conventions (that would actually merit its classification as a distinct subgenre) rather than treating it as "anything that shoehorns in some Cthulhu mythos stuff". Referencing some element of lovecraft is not enough to make something "lovecraftian horror" - that is simply "Cthulhu mythos in popular culture", so the majority of the article being a list of "things with pop culture trappings of Lovecraft", to borrow from a comment 15 years ago is... painful.

In short, the article still remains a plethora of "oh, i know one too" style listing with little of value included. I will reiterate that "references to lovecraft" =/= "lovecraftian horror"

I feel as a start, the article could be moved to "cosmic horror" since while lovecraft can be considered the subgenre progenitor, it is larger than one person.Alice Ashpool (talk) 19:04, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

We should use whichever name is more common, which probably is indeed "cosmic horror". Rolf H Nelson (talk) 23:37, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Personally I'm just happy if things are well-sourced, but yes, we should omit non-cosmic-horror works, even those that do refer to the cthulhu mythos. We should also decide what to do about the many works that are cosmic horror, and which are also directly based on the Cthulhu mythos; IMHO we should just refer the reader to Cthulhu Mythos in popular culture rather than try to duplicate some of their content, partly to save ourselves work, and partly because in some cases it's unclear whether, say, the Cthulhu mythos section of Deities and Demigods should itself be listed with other works of cosmic horror. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 23:37, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Hi, I have made some changes. I agree with you about "cosmic horror being more common" which is why I was suggesting moving the article. My wikipedia noobs skills are showing because I do not know how to do that or if I am even allowed.

I don't expect it to be controversial, but I'd say give it a week to see if anyone objects, then rename using HELP:MOVE. In the unlikely event someone dislikes the move after it's done, they can revert the move easily enough. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 23:06, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

On the second points, I have made considerable changes to bits of the article - Re-writing the lead, and some of the bits I feel confident enough to work on: 1970s and 2010s film mostly, with paying attention to references and trying to make it cohesive to a reader rather than just a list of WP:POPCULTURE. I've tried to make them as short as possible while hitting the major works that 2ndary sources tend to call cosmic horror.

My current thoughts are that the comic section needs to be slimmed down and the video game section needs to be re-written as more than just a list, but mostly that 1) the Origin and Theme section needs to do a better job of showing that "cosmic horror" is a thing distinct from other horror genres, it has a definable meaning in culture/the arts, and that sources are using it as such, and 2) the difficult thing of a concise summary of what "Cosmic/Lovecraftian horror" actually is.

If anyone has issues with the changes I have made/am making hit me up here Alice Ashpool (talk) 11:56, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Generally discussion of edits should be raised on this talk page so the whole community can participate easier, rather than on user talk pages. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 23:06, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Whoops, sorry, I meant here as in on the talk page - just showing that I am paying attention to see if anyone objects and/or has criticism/improvements to my changes. Alice Ashpool (talk) 23:57, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Removal of Original Research Template from Themes

I have removed this template after removing some unverifiable claims and adding references to other unreferenced claims and adding in a couple of additional themes highlighted in literature. I feel it is "ok" now,doing an adequate job of highlighting verifiable themes, but still remains a bullet point list and can be improved. Alice Ashpool (talk) 23:16, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Cosmic Horror Expansion?

Hello, fellow Wikipedians,

I am conducting research for a course of mine, and I happened to stumble across this page. H.P. Lovecraft and his works are something that have always fascinated me, and I was thrilled to come across a page so dedicated to Lovecraft and his themes. I noticed, however, that there is not much talk on "Cosmic Horror" in its entirety. I do see that underneath the "Origin" header, there is a link to "Cosmicism." However, the information present on this page may not be helpful for the average reader. I think that it would be a great aid to insert a header titled "Cosmic Horror- The Overarching Lovecraftian Theme" and underneath this, I would insert "Definition" which gives a bit more detail into cosmic horror, and then, I found enough information to add in a section titled "Psychological." As we all know, much of cosmic horror walks the line of sanity. These additions would allow for this page to be more of a "one-stop" for the average reader. Finally, I think it would aid readers to add in an "Examples" section. Cosmic horror is quite a broad term, and it is something that may show difficult for the average reader to grasp. Providing specific examples from Lovecraft's work may allow the reader to understand cosmic horror on a deeper level. Also, I notice that there are very few direct examples given. In order to gather these examples, I used direct quotes from Lovecraft's work, and conducted further research on the stories in particular.

If nobody is opposed, I will go ahead and move forward with these edits. LiteratureLearner14 (talk) 18:27, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Hi there, I see you've made some edits along the lines you outline above. I think some of your paraphrasing from your sources is too close. For instance, you have "It uses to power of the sublime to make readers feel small, inadequate, inconsequential, and completely helpless against something vast and natural" and the source you credit has "These cosmic horror tales draw upon the power of the sublime to make us feel small, inconsequential, and totally helpless against something vast and natural". I think you would be better off using a direct quote. Would also suggest you think about the tone you have used in sentences such as "If you thought you had control over anything in your life, read a cosmic horror story- don’t feel so in control now, do you?". And avoid anything which borders on original research - remember everything on Wikipedia needs a reliable reference. Best wishes, Tacyarg (talk) 19:46, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Call of Cthulhu Video Game

Self-explanatory, not included in Lovecraftian Horror, HP Lovecraft, nor Call of Cthulhu pages, nor does it have it's own page. Pretty good game, it's said in this article that video games are an intrinsically difficult medium to portray cosmic horror into, however I think that this game, if played first hand, and concluded to acte of it's endings, conveys the experience rather well... Sceak (talk) 17:39, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Add under film and tv?

Final season of “the chilling adventures of Sabrina” is about the “Eldritch Terrors” and a main character reads from the gospel of H P Lovecraft, which is indicating that the gospel is telling the story of the final season. 104.220.88.34 (talk) 02:50, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

World of Warcraft

world of Warcraft is heavily inspired by lovecraftian stories. Most notable are the old gods (Shath'Jar). C'Thun, Yogg-Saron, Y'Shaarj and N'Zoth

[1]https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Old_God 77.105.204.67 (talk) 04:04, 12 May 2024 (UTC)