Talk:Llywelyn Fawr ap Maredudd

Llywelyn Fawr

At the moment, Llywelyn Fawr name is listed for the article Llywelyn the Great. However there is confusion here as to who is who, Llywelyn Fawr is the name of Llywelyn the Elder (now this article's named Elder Llywelyn), however this name is already in use for Llywelyn the Great, who would also be considered Llywelyn I. Is there any consensus as to shortening the name of Llywelyn ap Maredudd ap Cynan ab Owain Gwynedd, or is Elder Llywelyn acceptable, or maybe ask administration to alter the name once more ? Cltjames (talk) 17:37, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

@Cltjames: There seem be a few Google hits for "Llywelyn Fawr ap Maredudd" and "Llywelyn Fawr ap Maredudd ap Cynan"; I would suggest the former. Anything beginning "Llywelyn ap Maredudd" is presumably no good as he was one of two brothers called Llywelyn. (Though I do note that our article on his son is at Maredudd ap Llywelyn ap Maredudd ap Cynan, and his grandson's at Llywelyn ap Maredudd ap Llywelyn ap Maredudd ap Cynan.) So this Llywelyn Fawr is Llywelyn 'the great(er of the two)', and his brother Llywelyn Fychan is Llywelyn the 'small' (i.e. lesser). Is "Llywelyn the elder" (the current title of this article) used at all by reliable sources? Ham II (talk) 08:40, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

@Ham II: I would like you to cross reference with a talk discussion I started Talk:Llywelyn the Great#Llywelyn 'Fawr'?. In several online sources Llywelyn the Great is never listed as Fawr, I believe there has been some confusion as to who Llywelyn 'Fawr' was. Dictionary of national biography (encyclopedia) and dictionary of Welsh biography both list Llywelyn Fawr and Llywelyn the Great as different people, and over the course of time the two names have been mistakenly mixed up. Llywelyn the great was never Llywelyn Fawr, it is just a very basic translation of 'Great' into Welsh. Really this article should be named Llywelyn Fawr, and Llywelyn the Great should lose the naming rights to Fawr in the wikipedia search engine. Cltjames (talk) 12:57, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

@Cltjames: Thanks for alerting me to Talk:Llywelyn the Great#Llywelyn 'Fawr'?; I'll make my main points there in order to concentrate this discussion in one place. Ham II (talk) 07:36, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

@Cltjames: (Returning here in order to discuss the title for this article.) How would you feel about moving this article to Llywelyn Fawr ap Maredudd? It's what Remfry's article uses. There are various results for it on Google Books, which are sometimes for the longer form "Llywelyn Fawr ap Maredudd ap Cynan", but this form is more WP:CONCISE. Ham II (talk) 07:06, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Ok sure, that works. If possible delete the new search names made for 'Elder Llywelyn' and 'Llywelyn the Elder'. Cltjames (talk) 13:43, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

@Cltjames: Thanks – now moved. I'll take Elder Llywelyn and Llywelyn the elder to WP:RFD in the morning. Ham II (talk) 19:09, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

@Cltjames and Serial Number 54129: See Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 February 17#Elder Llywelyn. Ham II (talk) 08:32, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

The only redirect that's actually important here, to me, is that Llwelyn Fawr and the Great are shown as being the same individual; the only reason for my involvement is Cltjames' dicking around with nonsensical page moves in the first place. HTH 🙂 SN54129 12:39, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

I was trying to make an improvement, and it seems to have been a first draft. We acted as a team working bit by bit, the most important thing is the correct naming for the article is complete. Thanks for your help @Serial Number 54129: but no need for the rude word. Cltjames (talk) 14:35, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

@Cltjames: But please see WP:DICK  :) SN54129 14:41, 17 February 2022 (UTC)