Talk:Ljuba Prenner

Language use

Pronouns in this article have been chosen after several discussions[1][2] on how to deal with the gender identity and the language. Recognizing that Prenner was a language expert and that their chosen identity was male, combined with sources which confirm that the male identity was used in the courtroom and writing, male pronouns have been used once Prenner's career began. The decision was policy-based: Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what is most common in reliable sources from the MOS:GENDERID and In the case of a historical figure, if reliable sources indicate that they lived consistently as a gender other than the one assigned at birth, use the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns that reflect the gender they lived as from Historical figures. (While the last is a discussion, it is on a policy development page). SusunW (talk) 15:21, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

@SusunW: Thank you for your work writing this article! In regard to the pronouns, I'm afraid the current usage doesn't seem consistent with the guidelines. According to MOS:GENDERID: "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise." According to the article, Prenner identified as male from a young age and maintained a male identity until his death. Thus the article should use "he/his" throughout. Not doing so may be considered disrespectful (and it looks like one editor has already accused the article of being transphobic.[3]). Kaldari (talk) 18:40, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Kaldari My take on the highlighted guidelines above is that he did not consistently live as a male until he began his career. I did not revert the edit you indicated, though it introduced multiple mispellings and may have been construed by the person who did revert it as vandalism. My intent, far from the accusation of transphobia, was to respect Prenner's choice and not follow the female gendering of most sources. Feel free to make whatever adjustments you wish, as long as they are respectful of Prenner's choice to be male. SusunW (talk) 19:14, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

@SusunW: Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. I'll take a pass at it and see if I can get it more in line with the guidelines, hopefully without making it more confusing. Free free to tweak further as needed! Kaldari (talk) 19:23, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

@SusunW: I did my best to fix it up. Hope I didn't mess up anything in the process. The article is very well written and well referenced. Nice work! Kaldari (talk) 03:31, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by 97198 (talk) 03:38, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that though he did not support the Yugoslav communist regime, Slovene transgender lawyer and writer Ljuba Prenner acknowledged that after they took power, he was able to dress as he pleased? Source: "Ti prekleti komunisti, je pogosto bentila, a potem hitro dodala, da so ji pravzaprav šele oni dovolili nositi hlače,« pravi Mrzelova." ["These damn communists, she often bent, but then quickly added that in fact only they allowed her to wear pants," says Mrzelova.] (Dnevnik)
  • ALT1: ... that Slovene transgender lawyer and writer Ljuba Prenner would introduce himself: "I am Dr. Ljuba Prenner, neither man nor woman"? Source: "Medtem ko so vsi, dobro poučeni o njenem moškem videzu, napeto pričakovali njen prihod, se je Ljuba pojavila v sobi s pladnjem tortic v roki in dejala: 'Jaz sem dr. Ljuba Prenner, ne moški ne ženska, tukaj imate torte, da se boste posladkale.'" [While everyone, well informed about her masculine appearance, eagerly awaited her arrival, Ljuba appeared in the room with a tray of cakes in her hand and said: 'I am Dr. Ljuba Prenner, neither man nor woman, you have cakes here to sweeten up.'"(Cosmopolitan)

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Benefield Castle
• Comment: Please wait for more alts; I was hurrying to nominate this within the 7-day window.

Created by SusunW (talk). Nominated by Yoninah (talk) at 23:02, 29 June 2020 (UTC).

Substantial article about an unusual life, on fine sources, offline sources accepted AGF. I prefer the ALT, but would like some indication of when that was, because in 2020, it would probably be a bit quirky, but when it happened, had more depth to it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:30, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

• Happy to strike ALT0. SusunW could you weigh in here please? The source gives the date of 1954; could we say ... that in the 1950s, ...? Yoninah (talk) 21:24, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree that the date adds more context...in the 1950s is good. SusunW (talk) 21:35, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

• So:
• ALT1a: ... that in the 1950s, Slovene transgender lawyer and writer Ljuba Prenner would introduce himself: "I am Dr. Ljuba Prenner, neither man nor woman"? Yoninah (talk) 21:38, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

  thank you --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:50, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Someone more knowledgeable than me in gender matters please explain

We have a note saying that he understood himself as a lesbian who lived beyond binarism. But how can you be a lesbian if you are not female or a woman? Genuinely asking to educate myself or, alternatively, potentially find a contradiction in the article. Thanks. --82.37.129.75 (talk) 23:20, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

This is an article about a historical person. In the time in which he lived the official state policy was that a gender spectrum did not exist. The only possibilities in his era and place were for him to be male or female. It is impossible to put the world Prenner lived in into a modern construct. As he was biologically a woman, whose relationships were with women, he understood that he was considered to be lesbian. But, he also recognized that that label was inappropriate, as he identified as male. There are lots of interviews with Jerica Mrzel, his literary guardian in which she tries to explain the context of the time if that helps. SusunW (talk) 03:36, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Ok, I get it, the note's language merges two contradictory classificatory schemes in one phrase, that's why the note is self-contradictory if wholy interpreted within one of those schemes. --ExperiencedArticleFixer (talk) 08:13, 24 July 2020 (UTC)