Talk:List of tribes and states in Belarus, Russia and Ukraine

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vincha culture

you missed it — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.126.219.110 (talk) 13:50, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I propose that List of historic states of Russia be merged into this article as they cover practically the same thing, and this article is more ambiguous and can include the various states in modern day Ukraine and Belarus. (polskaGOLA) (talk) 07:25, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

• Support - For the reason stated above. They cover the same scope but this article can cover states that existed in Ruthenia / located in modern day Ukraine and Belarus. (polskaGOLA) (talk) 07:25, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Well significant time has passed and without any objections, I will go through with this. (polskaGOLA) (talk) 23:18, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Merge and Expansion done. Moving to delete the old article. (polskaGOLA) (talk) 16:15, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Falsification

This map ([1]) falsifies history. Kievan Rus disintegrated before the advent of cities Moscow, Nizhny Novgorod. The name " Belgorod Dnestrovsky" appeared in the Soviet Union (1944). The name "Vladimir Volynsky" -1795 year. Chersonessos ? Itil ? ... ... Michaila vnuk (talk) 11:48, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Article name

The article covers much more than just "early East Slavic" and also covers more than "states". A title like "List of tribes and states in Belarus, Russia and Ukraine" would be more appropriate. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:34, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

Apologies in taking so long to get back to you on this, Marcocapelle. I'm extremely busy IRL. Yes, I agree that would meet with precision for the title as the territory is certainly proscribed by the territories of the contemporary nation-states. It also allows for the fact that many of the groups were/are not Slavs. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:15, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Section structure, OR and POV

The current section structure of this list seems to me to be rather Moscow-centric and in violation of WP:No original research, apart from the fact that it is almost entirely WP:UNSOURCED. I've made a serious effort to write a proper lead section to give a balanced historical background and context based on RS. Now the list itself should be balanced and supported by RS as well. There are many ways of organising a list of former countries/sates, such as alphabetical (see List of states in the Holy Roman Empire) or chronological (such as List of historic states of Italy, which largely follows the pattern of Antiquity - Middle Ages - early modern period - modern period). This list is an example of the latter.

I'm mostly objecting to the arbitrary periodisation of states by events that may only/primarily be relevant to Muscovy in particular. Treating the Council of Liubech as a breaking point seems rather arbitrary, I haven't seen that done anywhere else in historiography. If anything, the death of Yaroslav the Wise in 1054 is seen as important (for various reasons such as further fragmentation of Kievan Rus', the introduction of the Russkaya Pravda and the simultaneously occurring East–West Schism). Mongol "yoke" is an obsolete and religious/nationalistic POV term; per List of conflicts in Europe during Turco-Mongol rule and List of conflicts in Eastern Europe during Turco-Mongol rule we should call it "Turco-Mongol rule". I don't object so much to naming 1237 (when the Mongol invasion of Kievan Rus' began) as a breaking point, but I do object to regarding the 1380 Battle of Kulikovo as "the end of the Mongol/Tatar yoke", which again is an obsolete and religious/nationalistic POV. The so-called Great Stand on the Ugra River is also traditionally religiously/nationalistically often claimed to signify the very same "the end of the Mongol/Tatar yoke" (one cannot have it both ways). Presenting Muscovy as heading a list of states implies ownership (nationalistic/imperialistic POV), and presenting it separately from "former Golden Horde countries [sic]" implies Muscovy itself was never a "Golden Horde country [sic]", although it most definitely was. The section title and The Empire (since 1480) also implies that the [Russian] Empire still exists today, quod non.

There are other problematic aspects, but I think I've put enough on the table for now. I think we should answer the following questions:

1. Do we organise this list chronologically or alphabetically?
2. If chronologically, do we even want to subdivide it into periods (which leads to overlap for states that have existed in multiple periods) or just have a single list from prehistory to present (which is probably better to tabulate as a wikitable sortable)?
3. If we want periods, what kind of periodisation should we maintain? Unless we go for something generally accepted like Antiquity - Middle Ages - early modern period - modern period, or something by centuries, I fear it will always be somewhat arbitrary, OR and/or POV.
4. If alphabetically, do we want a single list (e.g. a wikitable sortable) or sections divided by letter (kinda like the Holy Roman Empire, but within 1 article instead of a list for each letter)?

As it stands, a wikitable sortable seems the best of all worlds, because once created, the reader can sort them chronologically or alphabetically, whatever they like. Here I would urge alphabetically to be the default, because especially for archeological cultures and tribes it will be impossible to accurately date from which year to which year they "existed". Groups of people don't just spring into existence one specific year and disappear in another specific year (unless some sort of total genocide or natural disaster kills every single member of it, which almost never happens). Cultural assimilation and differentiation are slow gradual sociological processes that cannot be captured as specifically as a founding date of a state. Alphabetical sorting also has the advantage of being pretty unambiguous, because even if a former state is known by several names (e.g. Kingdom of Galicia–Volhynia and Kingdom of Ruthenia), the linked article will have a title that we can base ourselves on (so in this case it would be sorted under "G"). Hence I would propose we follow option no. #4. If nobody has any objections in the following days, I will do so per WP:BOLD, but I'm open to many other options if anyone has a good idea or argument. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:44, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Rus' principalities

At the "Category:Russian city-states" CfR, there is some discussion going on about what Rus' principalities are. Most of the interwikis linked to this list via Wikidata "(list of early East Slavic states (Q393871))" have that as their more or less explicit subject:

• ca List of early East Slavic states
• cs List of Rus' principalities
• en List of tribes and states in Belarus, Russia and Ukraine
• es Addendum:Former East Slavic principalities
• et List of Slavic principalities
• fr List of East Slavic principalities
• hu Rurikid list of rulers of Rus' principalities
• ja Rus' principalities
• lt Principalities of Rus'
• pl Ruthenian principalities
• ru List of Rus' principalities
• uk List of Rus' principalities
• zh List of historical tribes and regimes of Kievan Rus'
• Commons c:Category:Rus principalities

The primary division seems to be between those who only include the principalities that were part of Kievan Rus' (c. 880 to 1240), and those who extend the term Rus' principalities to about the 16th century. (Exceptions are those such as ruwiki who call e.g. the Grand Duchy of Lithuania a Rus' principality that lasted until 1795, but Lithuanian Wikipedia itself does not describe it as such). German Wikipedia represents the former and has a separate list just for c. 880 to 1240 period of the Kievan Rus': de:Liste der Fürstentümer der Kiewer Rus. Yet, its category de:Kategorie:Russisches Fürstentum, literally Russian principality, is broader than that and includes Moscow, Tver and the Pskov Republic (all of which were founded after 1240), but also Principality of Terebovlia (which ceased to exist in 1141, so long before Kievan Rus' ended in 1240). While there is no universal agreement, there is consensus that many states were Rus' principalities, and some are almost never called Rus' principalities. I think it might be helpful to establish a list somewhere, probably as part of this article, perhaps part of the main list, which shows states that are commonly identified as Rus' principalities, just so that both readers and Wikipedians know what we are roughly talking about. Regardless of the CfR's outcome, this could be useful. I'll proceed to draft a list here based on RS that I can find. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 07:07, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Existing English-language groupings

• Category:Subdivisions of Kievan Rus'
• Commons c:Category:Rus principalities
• Template:East Slavic principalities "East Slavic principalities of the pre-Mongol period"
• Category:Russian city-states

• Pre-1240
• Principality of Beloozero
• Principality of Chernigov
• Principality of Dmitrov (Commons) [2]
• Principality of Drutsk
• Principality of Goroden (Commons) [3]
• Principality of Halych
  • merged into Principality later Kingdom of Galicia–Volhynia
• Principality of Izyaslavl (Zaslawye)
• Principality of Jersika (Commons)
• Principality of Kiev
• Principality of Koknese (Commons)
• Principality of Minsk
• Principality of Mstislavl (Commons)
• Principality of Murom
• Novgorod Republic
• Principality of Novgorod-Seversk
• Principality of Peremyshl
• Principality of Pereyaslavl
• Principality of Polotsk
• Principality of Ryazan
• Principality of Slutsk
• Principality of Smolensk
• Principality of Terebovlia
• Tmutarakan
• Principality of Trubetsk
• Principality of Turov and Pinsk (Turov-Pinsk)
• Principality of Vitebsk
• Vladimir-Suzdal alias Rostov-Suzdal, Suzdalia, Vladimir
• Principality of Volhynia
  • merged into Principality later Kingdom of Galicia–Volhynia
• Principality of Uglich (Commons) [4]
• Principality of Yaroslavl
• Principality of Zvenyhorod
• Post-1240
• Pskov Republic
• Principality of Nizhny Novgorod-Suzdal
• Principality of Tver
• Principality of Moscow
• Principality of Mozhaisk? (split from Smolensk by late 13th century)
• Iurev Polskii? (split from Vladimir-Suzdal by late 13th century)
• Pereiaslavl Zalesskii? (split from Vladimir-Suzdal by late 13th century)
• Rostov? (independent again / split from Vladimir-Suzdal by late 13th century)
  • Beloozero split off in 1238
  • Yaroslavl split off in 1249, fragmented into appanages in 14th and 15th centuries ("appanage period")

Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 07:11, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

See merging proposal Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 September 12#Category:Rus' principalities (which I oppose for the reasons stated).

We should probably also take into account whether the Upper Oka Principalities are called Rus' principalities in the literature, although that would probably be difficult to attest, as very little is known and written about them (except that they probably emerged from Chernigov some time after the 1246, and were later annexed by Moscow). Principality of Belyov and Principality of Odoyev were added to the category in August 2023, but I'm not sure they belong in it. NLeeuw (talk) 18:29, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Bibliography

• Martin, Janet (2007). Medieval Russia: 980–1584. Second Edition. E-book. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-511-36800-4.