Talk:List of excommunicated Baháʼís

A few points

@Khánum Gül: I think this is potentially a reasonable list to exist, but I'm not one hundred percent certain it serves a purpose that the Covenant-breaker page doesn't serve, as the number of named individuals will be relatively small, and thus can be pretty accessibly included in that page? This page already has a good bit of explanation on it, so we risk creating a bit of a WP:REDUNDANTFORK; but since they're different types of pages, WP:DIFFORK says they can coexist as long as the content in them stay in agreement, and both are supported by reliable sources. I have few thoughts about the content right now:

1. As a self-published source, I don't think the Johnson work stands up to the WP:RS requirements, although after taking a look at the book it is a really well-written and valuable source by a thoughtful author. I ran into the same issue on my recent work on the page about Quddus (still very much in process), where Boris Handal's new biography is really valuable, but I don't think can be a significant source for the page, and ultimately as an amateur work has different goals and standards than real academic work. It's still a useful research support, as I think Johnson's book can be. Indeed, I was really struck by the sincerity and balance of Johnson's work, and his observation about how much we would have benefited in the modern age if more people had recorded the lives and beliefs of the Gnostics and other early schismatic Christians. I'm eager to explore the book more, but don't think an article here can rely on it. I can think of a few sources that might be helpful here, and will see if I can confirm that and replace some of the Johnson cites.
2. We should take care to ensure that only otherwise notable people appear on the list, per WP:PEOPLELIST, and be extra cautious about including any living people. I think it's ok right now, but if expanded there may be some individuals who should be left off.
3. Finally, is this meant to be a list of just covenant-breakers, or is it meant to also included disenrolled Baha'is or those have self-segregated from the community? The intro is a little vague on this, and could be clarified. If it is just meant to include covenant-breakers, I think we should change the title to be more aligned with Covenant-breaker.

Thank you for your thorough work. Peace! — penultimate_supper 🚀 ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree with all the thoughts and ramblings above. Let me preface by saying I default to delete on pretty much any new page, but overall I'd keep this one. The troubles Penultimate supper mentioned are correct: the page can't rely on only one source, and Johnson is good but not the highest quality source (he makes some obvious errors). It overlaps with Covenant-breaker, but can't reasonably be called "List of Covenant-breakers". It will be very difficult to identify who has actually been excommunicated through reliable sources. People who disenrolled themselves are not excommunicated, and those who were disenrolled are not excommunicated. It is unclear to me whether Juan Cole was ever excommunicated or regarded as a Covenant-breaker or apostate, and he is one of the most well-documented cases. Any speculative additions to the list should be removed by default. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 00:31, 8 December 2024 (UTC)