Talk:List of death deities

Broadening the topic

Actually almost all religions are "Death God" religions in that emphasis is on dying well enough (sinless/forgiven) to achieve a favorable place in the afterlife. Very few religions set their focus on goals that matter only during life. Most clearly revolve around judgment by a God or The God at death. Christianity is particularly death obsessed in terms of a messiah, a part of the central god, who had to die and lives again and will rule those who die in a non-Earthly afterlife. Buddhism with its earthly cycle of reincarnations is about as close to life oriented religion as the major religions come. Scientology might be considered a religion that does not involve Death Gods, if not a major religion.

Thus this article needs to either define better criteria to separate out the Death Gods stated as different from mainstream religions, or include major religions as Death Gods of a particular type. Perhaps Monotheism is a subclass of Death Gods who are so important as to rule all aspects of existence. Whereas, the existing emphasis here seems to be on polytheism were the Death God is limited to power over circumstances of death or circumstances plus judgment as to which afterlife is attained -- but not governance of life before death nor afterlife once judged. If this article is limited to the latter cases then the article needs to start by stating that distinction.[[Special:Contributi one of the "list" pages  :) Dreamingkat (talk) 03:42, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Alternatively, I'd say you could divide the article up into sections about each religion and the functions of the gods who deal with death. This might be an easier approach initially, as you can work from sources at Wikipedia articles on death in various religions. Ultimately, though, I agree that the article should look at deities who have prescribed functions and exclusively deal with death, and deities that deal with death as part of their duties. I wouldn't agree that having a list of deities of death at the end adds anything useful - they would already be mentioned in the main article, and as shown further down this talk page in the comments about the inclusion of Kali, can throw some unnecessary controversy into the article.

As a side note, there may be an existing categorisation in comparative religious studies of death gods; something like 'judges', 'lords' of afterlife domains, guides/psychopomps. I wouldn't know where to look to find such a categorisation (perhaps the works of Joseph Campbell or someone similar?), but I'm suggesting this in case it should spark any ideas in someone who is more familiar with the field — Sasuke Sarutobi (talk) 20:04, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Research to be done

List assembled by Dreamingkat. Please edit in place.

Not enough credible sources to confirm yet (min 3, not counting wikipedia)

• Ilamatecuhtli- goddess of the earth, death, and the milky way
  • unable to find any
• Xi Balba - God of the Death
  • One reference in AD&D 1E Deities & Demigods book. This is not indicative of actual real-world status though.
  • unable to find any
• Osiris (Egyptian)
  • http://www.philae.nu/akhet/NetjeruO.html
  • http://www.egyptianmyths.net/osiris.htm

Not yet researched

• Janas - Goddesses of death
• Panas - Goddesses of reproduction (women dead in childbirth)
• Ankou (Breton)
• Izanami (Shinto)
• The Morrigan (Irish/Celtic)
  • One reference in AD&D 1E Deities & Demigods book. This is not indicative of actual real-world status though. Various other references to this deity in D&D products, but without specific notes as to sphere of influence.
• Mors (Roman)
• Mot (Canaanite)
• Odin (Norse)
• Anpu (Egyptian)
• Shemal (Semitic)
• Shinigami (Japanese)
• Sielulintu, Kalma, Surma (Finnish)
• Hun-Came (Mayan) Yum Cimil, a death deity,
• Yama (Hindu)
• Yanluo (Chinese)
• Polynesian - Marama is a lunar deity and a goddess of death for the Māori.
• Diedievaitė - Lithuanian: a deity of the black death.
• Australian aboriginal- Baiame: a sky god and a deity of death and life

Death versus underworld/hell

I saw that Hel was listed ars he god of death in he norse pantheon, but she is the goddess of Hell, the underworld for the people who died outside the balltefield (Balltefield deaths go to Wahalla and the hall of Freija). So, what is the focus on this page? Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 03:51, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm thinking that we should list both deities of the underworld and deities of death, as the two "jobs" overlap in an awful lot of cultures, and there is no list of deities of the underworld. Dreamingkat 03:57, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Depending on how you define Death Gods (which this article has not done) many polytheist hierarchies many not have a God of Death but only Gods of the afterlife. Specifically the narrowest definition of Death God might be "a god whose major duties and powers are to determine the time and circumstance of everyone's death and optionally judgment as to immediate disposition in the afterlife".

In that case the Fates, Furies and other equivalents of blind fate would dominate as the actual Death Gods in many European pantheons. Whereas Hel, Hades, and other Gods you are tossing around might then be just gods responsible for judgment and ruling the various possible afterlifes...though I note a tendency toward listing only Gods of negative afterlife outcomes. Again I note that some polytheist religious beliefs seemed to leave timing and circumstances of a persons death to random chance or even their own actions combined with events -- thus placing more emphasis on surprise judgment after death.69.23.124.142 (talk) 00:30, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Terming Kali as a God of death is a complete wrong thing to do. Kali is the Universal Mother who controls all things under the Sun. Her form, her worship celebrates life more than death. Please delete her name from that of a force of death. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.125.90.58 (talk) 15:28, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

To be fair, she is commonly shown as a deity of destruction and time. To me, that is essentially Death, if not for humans then for concepts, creations, civilizations, etc. There is at least some overlap with the traditional Death deity.--Immortal Z (talk) 13:13, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

No ImmortalZ respect the hindu faith.you're ignorant. do your research and stop watching Temple of Doom you asshole —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.229.156.77 (talk) 15:28, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Osiris?

There is a distinction between a god of death and a god of the dead, and Osiris fits the latter bill. As far as I can tell, he was never regarded as a personification of death, nor ever controlling it, rather, most of his mythology is about life and fertility. Such a place in the Egyptian pantheon is occupied by, possibly among others, Seth or Anepu. --The Dark Peria (talk) 14:52, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I saw the articles and I dont agree with you.--Taranet (talk) 21:31, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

NPOV removed

I've removed the NPOV template, please use {{POV-section}} for sections or {{POV-statement}} for sentences, then detail issues here. This will help address them in a timely manner. - RoyBoy 02:32, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Zahhak (Persian mythology)

I removed 'Zahhak or Dahaka (Persian mythology)' because Zahhak is a devil-human but not a death god.--Taranet (talk) 20:55, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Baltic, Slavic god and goddesses of death?

What about Baltic & Slavic gods and goddesses of death? There are plenty of them. Rich mythology which survived until today(for example Vampires & Werewolves derive from Slavic mythology) & even new enthusiasts who worship these deities, especially young people, turning away from Christian religions and seeking their roots of their ancestors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.210.213.222 (talk) 09:00, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Buddhism?

Buddhism doesn't have "gods or a god" I noticed right at the beggining that Yama is mentioned for both Buddhism and Hindu, but it should only be mentioned for Hindu. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.106.183.195 (talk) 15:22, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

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What is the Selection Criteria?

An unnamed user recently removed a number of entries which Idontknowwhattouseasmyusername300 correctly reinstated (thank you!). The problem is that the deletor had a point. Our lede starts, "Many have incorporated a god of death into their mythology or religion." If we are using that as our WP:SELCRIT, then the edits were right. Hades, et al, are not gods of death. Many on the list are only associated with death. Gods of various postmortem states, usually underworlds, are not gods of death but custodians of souls. This isn't linguistic quibbling, but a critical distinction in many religions. An article like this really can't exist without clear and unambiguous selection criteria, and a list that includes Hecate, Sekhmet and Nungal alongside Februusk, Kalma and Xipetotec is lacking that. Thoughts? Cheers, Last1in (talk) 22:37, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

This problem's been raised so often over the years - see above! It's a good question, but I gloomily suspect it would be easier to explicitly relax the criteria and even rename the article (eg List of deities of death and the dead) than to trim the artcle and keep it trimmed. Category:Death_deities and its various subcategories including Category:Death gods and Category:Death goddesses. Still, perhaps as a first step, rather than deleting instances, it might be possible to separate out, in each culture's section, the deities of death and those of the dead.

Back in 2010, Sasuke Sarutobi suggested we might look to comparative religious studies. It would help a lot of this article's selection could be based on such WP:SCHOLARSHIP. NebY (talk) 13:56, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

I think that you are on point, but we might be able to do the same thing without renaming the article if we define 'death deities' inclusively in the lede. I am not proposing this specific wording since it's flawed, but something in the line of "The mythology or religion of a culture usually incorporates a god of death or, more frequently, one or more divine beings closely associated with death, the dead, and the underworld." That gets us out of what I see as the two biggest issues, psychopompics and cthonics (fake words intentional). Cheers, Last1in (talk) 14:35, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

• To reduce the persistent disruption of the page by a vandal objecting to the inclusion of (amongst others) Hades and Hermes, I think it might be a good idea to accelerate this discussion. I propose the following lede and short description. Please opine below on ways to improve it so I can include your recommendations. Unless there is consensus (or even one good argument) against it, I will implement the change on 24 September 2023.

{{Short description |Divine beings representing death or closely associated with death, an afterlife or an underworld}}

The mythology or religion of most cultures incorporate a god of death or, more frequently, a divine being closely associated with death, an afterlife, or an underworld. They are often amongst the most powerful and important entities in a given tradition, reflecting the fact that death, like birth, is central to the human experience. In religions where a single god is the primary object of worship, the representation of death is usually that god’s antagonist, and the struggle between the two is central to the folklore of the culture. In such dualistic models, the primary deity usually represents good, and the death god embodies evil. Similarly, death worship is used as a derogatory term to accuse certain groups of morally abhorrent practices which set no value on human life. In monotheistic religions, death is commonly personified by an angel or demon standing in opposition to the god.

To be as inclusive as possible, I am pinging the editors who have been fighting the vandalism discussed above: DoebLoggs, NebY, Discospinster, Nagol0929 and Idontknowwhattouseasmyusername300. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 14:16, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

• Support Thanks for moving this forward. As the article demonstrates, many cultures have deities associated with death who are not conceived as personifications of all moments of dying or as otherwise responsible for every end of life, and it would not be constructive to artificially exclude them. I would replace "the afterlife, or the underworld" with "an afterlife, or an underworld", as there's no common conception of either across all cultures. NebY (talk) 14:48, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Ooo. Good catch! Sorry about that; Eurocentrism strikes again. I've updated the proposal. PS: What is the recourse for the vandalism in the meantime? Do we need a semi-protect or other lock on the article? The troll is getting tiresome. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 14:52, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! No worries; I've slowly learnt that we're often taught simplified mythologies and that even within a single culture (eg ancient Greek) there can be a variety of ideas of an afterlife or even what, if anything, might survive death. Anyway, I've requested page protection, but there's a bit of a backlog, meanwhile I count four different editors reverting the block evader just in this month so far. NebY (talk) 15:14, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

• In an attempt to find good sources, I have put out a clarion call under the heading 'Help Wanted: Resources for Death in Mythology/Religion/Traditions' on Talk pages for Comparative Mythology, Death (personification), and Death & Culture. I have flat given up on trying to do scholarly searches since sorting through several thousand years of dealing-with-grief self-help dissertations is making my brain melt. Last1in (talk) 13:30, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

  Good idea putting out the call - the sources I have to hand don't really help either and I don't imagine I'd do any better than you with online research. I've added invites at WT:MYTH and WT:RELIGION (WT:DEATH seems, ahem, moribund). NebY (talk) 18:56, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

  @Last1in Do you want to make the change now? It's a pity we've not had more input but at least it's nem con. NebY (talk) 13:38, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

  I was really hoping that someone would respond. Since that idea came to naught, yes, I'll make the change now. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 14:26, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

  Yes indeed, though I've just now dug back through the history and realised that the criteria were only narrowed in 2022 with an IP's undiscussed edit. Thanks for doing this. NebY (talk) 14:45, 27 September 2023 (UTC)