Talk:List of child music prodigies/Archive 1

Archive 1

List split

This is actually a longer list then the one at the chess prodigy article. Also by separating it out it allows for them to be placed in genres.(Although if it's decided to move the list part of "chess prodigy" to the main list of child prodigies I'll likely move this back)--T. Anthony 04:44, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm not that sure adding Aliyah is correct. The others seem to fit. Although his page is uninformative Adan Sanchez was apparently quite talented even before his father died at 8. Brenda Lee was apparently seen as a bit prodigious in country music.(I think it would be snobbish to refuse to count kinds of music like country or even rap) Stacie Orrico is maybe borderline. Although the main problem with her is I had to add a category. I might just put her in a different category, if she fits, and drop the religious music one.--T. Anthony 07:06, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

I cut out a few because prodigy is apparently to be defined by a very strict standard to avoid abuse of the term. There's a bit of this I find to be an overreaction, but I think this had few remaining "over 12" names anyway. I'm not removing clean up just yet as I'm uncertain the genres are named right.--T. Anthony 09:47, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

List split

This is actually a longer list then the one at the chess prodigy article. Also by separating it out it allows for them to be placed in genres.(Although if it's decided to move the list part of "chess prodigy" to the main list of child prodigies I'll likely move this back)--T. Anthony 04:44, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm not that sure adding Aliyah is correct. The others seem to fit. Although his page is uninformative Adan Sanchez was apparently quite talented even before his father died at 8. Brenda Lee was apparently seen as a bit prodigious in country music.(I think it would be snobbish to refuse to count kinds of music like country or even rap) Stacie Orrico is maybe borderline. Although the main problem with her is I had to add a category. I might just put her in a different category, if she fits, and drop the religious music one.--T. Anthony 07:06, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

I cut out a few because prodigy is apparently to be defined by a very strict standard to avoid abuse of the term. There's a bit of this I find to be an overreaction, but I think this had few remaining "over 12" names anyway. I'm not removing clean up just yet as I'm uncertain the genres are named right.--T. Anthony 09:47, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Inclusion of Henry Purcell

According to a Wikipedia Article, Henry Purcell's first musical work was written when he was around 10-11, and rumours have suggested earlier (the article also explain him writing a piece at nine).

That being said, should Henry Purcell be added for inclusion in the listing? -DannyDaWriter 05:55, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd say yes. I'm comparatively flexible on who's a prodigy though. I'm willing to count people who didn't go to college until age 14 and Charlotte Church in the case of this list. That said I'm a bit stricter with music prodigies than other kind as there really are enough people who start quite young to make a decent list. Still the list already has people who didn't compose until age 11 and I think I'd accept a musician who started as old as 12 in certain cases.--T. Anthony 14:16, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I decided to put Charlotte Church back. The person who removed her has done no other edits at Wikipedia. I grant that she's tabloid fodder or perhaps even not a good person for all I know, but she fits the definition and sources back her up as fitting.--T. Anthony 00:30, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Inclusion of Henry Purcell

According to a Wikipedia Article, Henry Purcell's first musical work was written when he was around 10-11, and rumours have suggested earlier (the article also explain him writing a piece at nine).

That being said, should Henry Purcell be added for inclusion in the listing? -DannyDaWriter 05:55, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd say yes. I'm comparatively flexible on who's a prodigy though. I'm willing to count people who didn't go to college until age 14 and Charlotte Church in the case of this list. That said I'm a bit stricter with music prodigies than other kind as there really are enough people who start quite young to make a decent list. Still the list already has people who didn't compose until age 11 and I think I'd accept a musician who started as old as 12 in certain cases.--T. Anthony 14:16, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I decided to put Charlotte Church back. The person who removed her has done no other edits at Wikipedia. I grant that she's tabloid fodder or perhaps even not a good person for all I know, but she fits the definition and sources back her up as fitting.--T. Anthony 00:30, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Voice

Do vocalists belong at all? Children are not physically developed enough to gain a complete mastery of this field; for example, it's common for a seven-year-old violinist to play the Mendelssohn, but it's physically impossible for practically any prepubescent to sing "Tosca." Many children who display talent in singing later give it up in favor of other musical activities after their voices break; often it's a crapshoot whether a voice will still be good after puberty. D SCH 04:45, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I took it out due to this objection, but I may have overreacted. Beverly Sills did continue into adulthood and is generally more known for her opera work in adulthood than her child star career on radio.--T. Anthony 21:07, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Voice

Do vocalists belong at all? Children are not physically developed enough to gain a complete mastery of this field; for example, it's common for a seven-year-old violinist to play the Mendelssohn, but it's physically impossible for practically any prepubescent to sing "Tosca." Many children who display talent in singing later give it up in favor of other musical activities after their voices break; often it's a crapshoot whether a voice will still be good after puberty. D SCH 04:45, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I took it out due to this objection, but I may have overreacted. Beverly Sills did continue into adulthood and is generally more known for her opera work in adulthood than her child star career on radio.--T. Anthony 21:07, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Mozart

Why is Wolfgang Mozart not included in the list of piano prodigies? He is perhaps the most famous example of a musical child prodigy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.165.248.53 (talk) 07:56, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Mozart

Why is Wolfgang Mozart not included in the list of piano prodigies? He is perhaps the most famous example of a musical child prodigy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.165.248.53 (talk) 07:56, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup tag

Is the cleanup tag needed? I tightened the intro sentences a little bit, but nothing in the article immediately stands out as needing cleanup. Please leave a note here to say what's needed, or feel free to remove the old cleanup template (which has been there since January 2006) if there's no longer a reason for it. --Reuben (talk) 18:33, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Yea, I agree. I clicked here, under articles needing clean-up, and was a bit confused as to what exactly needed clean-up, besides the fact that some obvious chronology is needed. (exempli gratia, "Frederic Chopin" right beside "Sandrine Erdely-Sayo.") --~~MusicalConnoisseur~~ Got Classical? 03:02, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup tag

Is the cleanup tag needed? I tightened the intro sentences a little bit, but nothing in the article immediately stands out as needing cleanup. Please leave a note here to say what's needed, or feel free to remove the old cleanup template (which has been there since January 2006) if there's no longer a reason for it. --Reuben (talk) 18:33, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Yea, I agree. I clicked here, under articles needing clean-up, and was a bit confused as to what exactly needed clean-up, besides the fact that some obvious chronology is needed. (exempli gratia, "Frederic Chopin" right beside "Sandrine Erdely-Sayo.") --~~MusicalConnoisseur~~ Got Classical? 03:02, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Natan Brand

There is actually citation on its main page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zzubiri (talk • contribs) 00:24, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Natan Brand

There is actually citation on its main page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zzubiri (talk • contribs) 00:24, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Deleted Entries

• I deleted the entry on Magnus LaDue. He "Won 1st place in Division II (Grades 3 and 4) at the University of Texas at Arlington's the 29th Annual Fall Piano Contest." This is not notable. If it were notable, then we would have to add everyone who won division II in competitions 1-28, and continue to add entries for all the competitions after the 29th. And wouldn't we have to add all the winners for the other divisions? It would be better to try and add a page for the "University of Texas at Arlington's Annual Fall Piano Contest" and include information about the winners there. HeWasCalledYClept (talk) 20:47, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Deleted Entries

• I deleted the entry on Magnus LaDue. He "Won 1st place in Division II (Grades 3 and 4) at the University of Texas at Arlington's the 29th Annual Fall Piano Contest." This is not notable. If it were notable, then we would have to add everyone who won division II in competitions 1-28, and continue to add entries for all the competitions after the 29th. And wouldn't we have to add all the winners for the other divisions? It would be better to try and add a page for the "University of Texas at Arlington's Annual Fall Piano Contest" and include information about the winners there. HeWasCalledYClept (talk) 20:47, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Pop Culture

Really, the concept of prodigy or genius by definition excludes application to persons whose claim to fame is excelling in pop culture pursuits such as the infantile entertainment form commonly called "rock" music. Some of the entries are ridiculous. For example, Bjork (for starters). She's just a silly little pop singer and a psuedo-intellectual who shows as much flesh as brains. How could you possibly have her on the same page as Mozart? Wikipedia really fails with these sorts of articles.59.101.213.127 (talk) 02:35, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Your subjective value judgement is as valid as everyone else's. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.234.14.180 (talk) 02:44, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Gaga entry misleading

Lady Gaga's entry mentions that she was, "one of 17 people in the world accepted into New York University's Tisch School of Arts. [99]" The Tisch school includes the film school, and has hundreds of students, so I checked link number 99, which reports, "AT AGE 17, SHE BECAME WAS ONE OF 20 KIDS IN THE WORLD TO GET EARLY ADMISSION TO TISCH SCHOOL OF THE ARTS AT NY," (Their caps, sorry.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.234.14.180 (talk) 02:44, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Pop Culture

Really, the concept of prodigy or genius by definition excludes application to persons whose claim to fame is excelling in pop culture pursuits such as the infantile entertainment form commonly called "rock" music. Some of the entries are ridiculous. For example, Bjork (for starters). She's just a silly little pop singer and a psuedo-intellectual who shows as much flesh as brains. How could you possibly have her on the same page as Mozart? Wikipedia really fails with these sorts of articles.59.101.213.127 (talk) 02:35, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Your subjective value judgement is as valid as everyone else's. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.234.14.180 (talk) 02:44, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Gaga entry misleading

Lady Gaga's entry mentions that she was, "one of 17 people in the world accepted into New York University's Tisch School of Arts. [99]" The Tisch school includes the film school, and has hundreds of students, so I checked link number 99, which reports, "AT AGE 17, SHE BECAME WAS ONE OF 20 KIDS IN THE WORLD TO GET EARLY ADMISSION TO TISCH SCHOOL OF THE ARTS AT NY," (Their caps, sorry.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.234.14.180 (talk) 02:44, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Andrew Bird

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postrock/2008/08/virgin_festival_preview_andrew.html The Washington Post said he was a child prodigy. Was this accurate or just "journalist speak"? "Andrew Bird is just another one of those world-class whistling, sometimes glockenspieling former child prodigy violinists-turned-chamber pop stars" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.180.96.92 (talk) 23:55, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Andrew Bird

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postrock/2008/08/virgin_festival_preview_andrew.html The Washington Post said he was a child prodigy. Was this accurate or just "journalist speak"? "Andrew Bird is just another one of those world-class whistling, sometimes glockenspieling former child prodigy violinists-turned-chamber pop stars" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.180.96.92 (talk) 23:55, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Jackie Evancho is NOT an Opera singer

She is a classical crossover singer. Very different. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.50.155.225 (talk) 14:56, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Jackie Evancho is NOT an Opera singer

She is a classical crossover singer. Very different. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.50.155.225 (talk) 14:56, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Bernie Worrell?

Should Bernie Worrell be included in this list? Started playing piano at three, wrote his first concerto by the time he was eight. Da Next Pope (talk) 19:47, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

He's listed under "R&B, soul, and funk". If you disagree with this placement, you can move his entry. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 19:06, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Bernie Worrell?

Should Bernie Worrell be included in this list? Started playing piano at three, wrote his first concerto by the time he was eight. Da Next Pope (talk) 19:47, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

He's listed under "R&B, soul, and funk". If you disagree with this placement, you can move his entry. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 19:06, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

performers and composers

When discussing music prodigies, it might be useful to distinguish between "creators" (composers) and "re-creators" (performers), at least when it's a question of someone living today. Prior to the 20th c., they were very often one and the same person (think of Chopin and Liszt, to name just two great composers who were also superb performers). Over the 19th c., however, the roles of composer and performer gradually diverged and performers increasingly increasingly became "specialists" (see Gerd Kaemper, Techniques pianistiques, Chap. I). There were a number of reasons for the split, many of which relate to the ever-increasing premium placed on "virtuosity" (think Paganini, and again Liszt, cult idols in their day). For the many aspiring performers who were less fabulously endowed by nature than P. and L., this meant devoting many hours a day to scales, arpeggios, exercises and etudes in order to develop a virtuoso technique. Not a lot of time was left for composing. The focus on mastery of the "craft" of playing and acquisition of a superlative instrumental technique continues unabated today. In many quarters the teaching of technique, and the training of performers in general, has become increasingly "scientific" and analytical. The same trend can be seen in sports such as gymnastics, swimming, field and track, etc.--any pursuit that has a significant physical component.

The result has been an indisputable rise in the median level of technical accomplishment in nearly every performance area of music. I don't much like the word "prodigy"... but there's no denying that these days countless serious young violinists, pianists, and other instrumentalists reach an impressively high skill level--and they do so at a younger age on average than at any time in the past, I suspect. Go to any major pre-college competition, and you'll hear an astonishing level of technical proficiency from nearly every candidate who makes it past the first round. Does that mean we have more great concert artists than in the past? Personally, I don't think so. There are still only a handful who reach the pinnacle of artistry, just as in past eras, because virtuosity is at most half of the equation. A virtuoso command of the "quantifiable" elements of performance--facility, desterity, speed, power, etc.--will get us to the concert hall once, but it won't keep us coming back if the performer doesn't have much to say, can't move us to our core, can't shed new light on old masterworks.

Among all those young performers with bravura techniques, precious few are genuine prodigies from the artistic/interpretive standpoint as well as the craft standpoint. One who caught my attention from a very young age is pianist Aimi Kobayashi, now 15. Started piano studies at 3, concert debut at 8, international debut in N.Y. and Paris at 9, first CD released at 14; has performed solo and with major orchestras in many countries already. Even at 4 she played not only technically very well, but with artistic temperament, communicative power and some real understanding of the music.

At age 4, Clementi sonatina: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_WBdb4Hu_Y

At age 7, Bach Sinfonia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-PpbAk7OdQ&list=PLFEB1AEF6944333F6

At 12, Chopin e min. Concerto, 1st mvt.: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwsMh-uvKxk&list=PLFEB1AEF6944333F6&index=49

At 14, Beethoven Waldstein Sonata, lst. mvt. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoTdKWOVGVs&list=PLFEB1AEF6944333F6&index=45

Whether Aimi will successfully make the transition to adulthood and continue to grow and deepen, remains to be seen. Many do not. Even some who go on to make distinguished careers have an extremely difficult passage to adulthood. I think of violinist Yehudi Menuhin, for instance, who played like an angel at age 13-14, but had many artistic and technical problems, many crises, later on. As an adult he seemed to always be searching for ways to recapture the unmannered naturalness and effortless freedom with which he played intuitively as a kid. Many so-called prodigies acheive their amazing feats without thinking or knowing how they do what they do. Instinct and natural facilities carry them until about age 15-20. Then when they become more self-aware and self-critical, as they inevitably do, they start having problems. They begin to over-think and over-analyze' they experience crises of self-doubt. In a sense they seem caught between the devil and the deep blue sea: they can't go back to their innocent, unreflected ways of playing as a child, and they can't go forward to a new level of mastery with heightened consciousness. Often their critical faculties threaten to overwhelm their creative and imaginative powers, and they find themselves in a constant struggle to successfully balance the two. It's a serious dilemma, and there's no easy cookie-cutter solution that works for all.

I don't know if it's quite the same for composer "prodigies". Certainly there seem to be fewer of those. The public seems content to wait longer for a composer to mature, and doesn't consider a composer second-rate just because s/he may not have composed many major works at age 30. By contrast, in the performance sphere the highly talented are pushed very hard to perform public recitals, tour, and especially to get out on the international competition circuit as young as possible. The competition winners--who are not necessarily the "best" or most profoundly gifted--are promoted to the hilt, offered a bunch of recitals and concerts with orchestra, maybe even given a recording contract. While they're busy fulfilling those engagements (and maybe preparing to enter another competition, since it seems today that winning one big competition doesn't get one far today), they have no time to learn other recital programs, no time to read, travel without performance obligations, study things other than music and become a well-rounded, cultured human being. They have little time to love, lose, interact with all manner of people and learn empathy, little time to experience the joys/sorrows that come with getting close to others. They have little time to LIVE. Instead they are holed up in a practice room for 6, 7, 9 hrs. a day preparing for their next gig. Is it any wonder, then, that many of them are immature narcissists, unaware of world events or of the misery in which much of humanity lives? Or that they've barely given a thought to the larger questions of life... One should not be surprised that lots of them have little of consequence to say in their performances--it's a wonder that some do!

Among composer prodigies, Mozart should definitely be on the list... but also Felix Mendelssohn, who composed many string symphonies and other fine works before the age of 16 and was also a very talented sketch artist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ktkeyboard (talk • contribs) 11:46, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

performers and composers

When discussing music prodigies, it might be useful to distinguish between "creators" (composers) and "re-creators" (performers), at least when it's a question of someone living today. Prior to the 20th c., they were very often one and the same person (think of Chopin and Liszt, to name just two great composers who were also superb performers). Over the 19th c., however, the roles of composer and performer gradually diverged and performers increasingly increasingly became "specialists" (see Gerd Kaemper, Techniques pianistiques, Chap. I). There were a number of reasons for the split, many of which relate to the ever-increasing premium placed on "virtuosity" (think Paganini, and again Liszt, cult idols in their day). For the many aspiring performers who were less fabulously endowed by nature than P. and L., this meant devoting many hours a day to scales, arpeggios, exercises and etudes in order to develop a virtuoso technique. Not a lot of time was left for composing. The focus on mastery of the "craft" of playing and acquisition of a superlative instrumental technique continues unabated today. In many quarters the teaching of technique, and the training of performers in general, has become increasingly "scientific" and analytical. The same trend can be seen in sports such as gymnastics, swimming, field and track, etc.--any pursuit that has a significant physical component.

The result has been an indisputable rise in the median level of technical accomplishment in nearly every performance area of music. I don't much like the word "prodigy"... but there's no denying that these days countless serious young violinists, pianists, and other instrumentalists reach an impressively high skill level--and they do so at a younger age on average than at any time in the past, I suspect. Go to any major pre-college competition, and you'll hear an astonishing level of technical proficiency from nearly every candidate who makes it past the first round. Does that mean we have more great concert artists than in the past? Personally, I don't think so. There are still only a handful who reach the pinnacle of artistry, just as in past eras, because virtuosity is at most half of the equation. A virtuoso command of the "quantifiable" elements of performance--facility, desterity, speed, power, etc.--will get us to the concert hall once, but it won't keep us coming back if the performer doesn't have much to say, can't move us to our core, can't shed new light on old masterworks.

Among all those young performers with bravura techniques, precious few are genuine prodigies from the artistic/interpretive standpoint as well as the craft standpoint. One who caught my attention from a very young age is pianist Aimi Kobayashi, now 15. Started piano studies at 3, concert debut at 8, international debut in N.Y. and Paris at 9, first CD released at 14; has performed solo and with major orchestras in many countries already. Even at 4 she played not only technically very well, but with artistic temperament, communicative power and some real understanding of the music.

At age 4, Clementi sonatina: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_WBdb4Hu_Y

At age 7, Bach Sinfonia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-PpbAk7OdQ&list=PLFEB1AEF6944333F6

At 12, Chopin e min. Concerto, 1st mvt.: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwsMh-uvKxk&list=PLFEB1AEF6944333F6&index=49

At 14, Beethoven Waldstein Sonata, lst. mvt. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoTdKWOVGVs&list=PLFEB1AEF6944333F6&index=45

Whether Aimi will successfully make the transition to adulthood and continue to grow and deepen, remains to be seen. Many do not. Even some who go on to make distinguished careers have an extremely difficult passage to adulthood. I think of violinist Yehudi Menuhin, for instance, who played like an angel at age 13-14, but had many artistic and technical problems, many crises, later on. As an adult he seemed to always be searching for ways to recapture the unmannered naturalness and effortless freedom with which he played intuitively as a kid. Many so-called prodigies acheive their amazing feats without thinking or knowing how they do what they do. Instinct and natural facilities carry them until about age 15-20. Then when they become more self-aware and self-critical, as they inevitably do, they start having problems. They begin to over-think and over-analyze' they experience crises of self-doubt. In a sense they seem caught between the devil and the deep blue sea: they can't go back to their innocent, unreflected ways of playing as a child, and they can't go forward to a new level of mastery with heightened consciousness. Often their critical faculties threaten to overwhelm their creative and imaginative powers, and they find themselves in a constant struggle to successfully balance the two. It's a serious dilemma, and there's no easy cookie-cutter solution that works for all.

I don't know if it's quite the same for composer "prodigies". Certainly there seem to be fewer of those. The public seems content to wait longer for a composer to mature, and doesn't consider a composer second-rate just because s/he may not have composed many major works at age 30. By contrast, in the performance sphere the highly talented are pushed very hard to perform public recitals, tour, and especially to get out on the international competition circuit as young as possible. The competition winners--who are not necessarily the "best" or most profoundly gifted--are promoted to the hilt, offered a bunch of recitals and concerts with orchestra, maybe even given a recording contract. While they're busy fulfilling those engagements (and maybe preparing to enter another competition, since it seems today that winning one big competition doesn't get one far today), they have no time to learn other recital programs, no time to read, travel without performance obligations, study things other than music and become a well-rounded, cultured human being. They have little time to love, lose, interact with all manner of people and learn empathy, little time to experience the joys/sorrows that come with getting close to others. They have little time to LIVE. Instead they are holed up in a practice room for 6, 7, 9 hrs. a day preparing for their next gig. Is it any wonder, then, that many of them are immature narcissists, unaware of world events or of the misery in which much of humanity lives? Or that they've barely given a thought to the larger questions of life... One should not be surprised that lots of them have little of consequence to say in their performances--it's a wonder that some do!

Among composer prodigies, Mozart should definitely be on the list... but also Felix Mendelssohn, who composed many string symphonies and other fine works before the age of 16 and was also a very talented sketch artist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ktkeyboard (talk • contribs) 11:46, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Clara Wieck

I cannot understand this list. Clara is not on it, but she was composing music when very young. She also appears on banknotes, which is not a bad achievement. Wallie (talk) 14:40, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

@Wallie: That she is missing from this list means no more than that nobody bothered adding her yet. It's a wiki. Just go for it and add her! --Florian Blaschke (talk) 16:12, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Clara Wieck

I cannot understand this list. Clara is not on it, but she was composing music when very young. She also appears on banknotes, which is not a bad achievement. Wallie (talk) 14:40, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

@Wallie: That she is missing from this list means no more than that nobody bothered adding her yet. It's a wiki. Just go for it and add her! --Florian Blaschke (talk) 16:12, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Ken Noda

I just created this article if anyone cares to add him... Couldn't find a source for the age of his debut, but he composed his first opera at 10 (which was performed by the New York City Opera) and had appeared with multiple orchestras before his debut with the New York Philharmonic at age 14.4meter4 (talk) 22:05, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Ken Noda

I just created this article if anyone cares to add him... Couldn't find a source for the age of his debut, but he composed his first opera at 10 (which was performed by the New York City Opera) and had appeared with multiple orchestras before his debut with the New York Philharmonic at age 14.4meter4 (talk) 22:05, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Age cut-off

I'm concerned by the changes to the age cut-off, see here and especially here. Why 12? It is arbitrary and could be changed again by any random editor, and is inconsistent with the article Child prodigy, which uses ten now in its definition and, crucially, cites a ref for it. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 03:08, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Age cut-off

I'm concerned by the changes to the age cut-off, see here and especially here. Why 12? It is arbitrary and could be changed again by any random editor, and is inconsistent with the article Child prodigy, which uses ten now in its definition and, crucially, cites a ref for it. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 03:08, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

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Please add the musical prodigees Emily Bear, Sungha Jung and Angelina Jordan

Do not have the time for it at the moment but I think these three are significant prodigees.

Emily Bear for being besides a piano talent, composing by simply playing complex pieces and for her choice for jazz.

Sungha Jung for being a remarkable guitar player, arranger and composer.

Angelina Jordan sings with an expression like she is Nina Simone near the end of her life.

Thanks. Jepz11 (talk) 08:49, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Emily Bear and a number of other piano prodigies are now back.

I've just noticed that Sarah Caldwell is called a (one-time) child prodigy in her entry as well. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 19:08, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Please add the musical prodigees Emily Bear, Sungha Jung and Angelina Jordan

Do not have the time for it at the moment but I think these three are significant prodigees.

Emily Bear for being besides a piano talent, composing by simply playing complex pieces and for her choice for jazz.

Sungha Jung for being a remarkable guitar player, arranger and composer.

Angelina Jordan sings with an expression like she is Nina Simone near the end of her life.

Thanks. Jepz11 (talk) 08:49, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Emily Bear and a number of other piano prodigies are now back.

I've just noticed that Sarah Caldwell is called a (one-time) child prodigy in her entry as well. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 19:08, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

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Many Gaps

Why no guitar, harp, brass, or percussion prodigies?

Suggest also that "Piano and Organ" be changed to "Keyboard", so as to encompass harpsichord, accordion, electronic keyboards, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.249 (talk) 22:53, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Electronic keyboards are generally not used in classical music. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 02:00, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Many Gaps

Why no guitar, harp, brass, or percussion prodigies?

Suggest also that "Piano and Organ" be changed to "Keyboard", so as to encompass harpsichord, accordion, electronic keyboards, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.249 (talk) 22:53, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Electronic keyboards are generally not used in classical music. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 02:00, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

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Somewhat related topic

Musicians dying young, see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music#WP:Articles for deletion/List of composers who died before age 50. Please comment there, not here. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:39, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Somewhat related topic

Musicians dying young, see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music#WP:Articles for deletion/List of composers who died before age 50. Please comment there, not here. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:39, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Music

I erased Jimmy Page. Just because he started playing at 9, does not mean he was as good as any skilled adults before eleven. And Rock Music is such a simplistic form of guitar-playing at that. I started playing at 10, and I was nowhere near a prodigy. Just because someone started playing young and became famous does not mean in any way that they are a prodigy...

Michael Jackson wasn't a musician. Why his name on this list? --Roujan (talk) 13:45, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

You have a very strange definition of "musician". --Florian Blaschke (talk) 19:00, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Jackson was a musician, but he was no prodigy. He was just another member of a show business family, forced into performance at an early age by his father. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.249 (talk) 22:56, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

People who experienced Jackson as a child, repeatedly call him a prodigy. They say his early mastering of singing and dance was on the level of a seasoned artist many decades older. I can recommend you to read the book MJ: The Genius of Michael Jackson – written by Rolling Stone journalist Steve Knopper (who is not a MJ fan). One of Knopper’s most convincing claims is that young Jackson had a ”perfect pitch” for dancing – which means that he could watch a dancer once, and then immediately execute the same dance moves. That is an extraordinary capability, which, IMHO, would indeed qualify him as a prodigy in the field of dancing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.145.147.102 (talk) 09:01, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

Music

I erased Jimmy Page. Just because he started playing at 9, does not mean he was as good as any skilled adults before eleven. And Rock Music is such a simplistic form of guitar-playing at that. I started playing at 10, and I was nowhere near a prodigy. Just because someone started playing young and became famous does not mean in any way that they are a prodigy...

Michael Jackson wasn't a musician. Why his name on this list? --Roujan (talk) 13:45, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

You have a very strange definition of "musician". --Florian Blaschke (talk) 19:00, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Jackson was a musician, but he was no prodigy. He was just another member of a show business family, forced into performance at an early age by his father. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.249 (talk) 22:56, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

People who experienced Jackson as a child, repeatedly call him a prodigy. They say his early mastering of singing and dance was on the level of a seasoned artist many decades older. I can recommend you to read the book MJ: The Genius of Michael Jackson – written by Rolling Stone journalist Steve Knopper (who is not a MJ fan). One of Knopper’s most convincing claims is that young Jackson had a ”perfect pitch” for dancing – which means that he could watch a dancer once, and then immediately execute the same dance moves. That is an extraordinary capability, which, IMHO, would indeed qualify him as a prodigy in the field of dancing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.145.147.102 (talk) 09:01, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

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Jazz/blues instrumentalists

Wikipedia articles on George Benson, Stevie Wonder, Joe Bonamassa mention them as former child prodigies. Can we include them in this list? 46.39.230.111 (talk) 19:05, 28 August 2020 (UTC) Also Derek Trucks 185.33.173.245 (talk) 14:41, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

• I would say you can - as long as you have specific reliable citations that show that at an age under 10 they were doing something 'prodigious' - e.g. not just playing an instrument or singing, but doing so in a way that was notably innovative, showed exceptional technical ability, or whatever.--Smerus (talk) 15:55, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Jazz/blues instrumentalists

Wikipedia articles on George Benson, Stevie Wonder, Joe Bonamassa mention them as former child prodigies. Can we include them in this list? 46.39.230.111 (talk) 19:05, 28 August 2020 (UTC) Also Derek Trucks 185.33.173.245 (talk) 14:41, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

• I would say you can - as long as you have specific reliable citations that show that at an age under 10 they were doing something 'prodigious' - e.g. not just playing an instrument or singing, but doing so in a way that was notably innovative, showed exceptional technical ability, or whatever.--Smerus (talk) 15:55, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Sorted by instruments?

Perhaps the sorting by instruments should be abandoned. It's kind of odd to have the "instrument" column included under the headers just to see it filled with the instrument of the header... presumably this is because it sometimes includes multiple instruments/skills, but that seems like another reason to combine all of the names together in an alphabetical list – keeping the instrument column but removing the sections. Aza24 (talk) 07:02, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Sorted by instruments?

Perhaps the sorting by instruments should be abandoned. It's kind of odd to have the "instrument" column included under the headers just to see it filled with the instrument of the header... presumably this is because it sometimes includes multiple instruments/skills, but that seems like another reason to combine all of the names together in an alphabetical list – keeping the instrument column but removing the sections. Aza24 (talk) 07:02, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Need more explanation for reverting my edit

A recently deleted page Lucciano Pizzichini redirects to this page. However, since there is no entry in the list for this artist, I created an entry which, along with another, has been reverted by an editor. I do not dispute the decision, however I suggest that if there is no entry of the artist here, then the redirect should be removed after appropriate discussion.Solatido 23:31, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

This article is headed by a statement, supported by three citations: "A child prodigy is defined in psychology research literature as a person under the age of ten who produces meaningful output in some domain to the level of an adult expert performer." Those who do not meet this definition do not belong on this page (and even less so if they do not merit a WP article and are evalauated as non-notable). I have deleted the redirect and instituted a deletion review.--Smerus (talk) 09:58, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Derek Paravicini

I added Derek Paravicini, including a reference. Smerus reverted my edits, with the edit summary "No evidence of any achievements wich give prodigy status as defined".

The introduction to the list article states "This is a list of young children (under age 10) who displayed a talent in music deemed to make them competitive with skilled adult musicians." The reference that I included clearly states "When he was nine, curly-haired and angelic, he performed with the Royal Philharmonic at the Barbican in central London." This statement obviously demonstrates that Paravicini meets the criterion for this list article. Smerus deleted my entry out-of-hand without even bothering to read the reference. Axl ¤ [Talk] 08:53, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

History is full of 9 year olds performing in concerts. That is not equivalent to them achieving standards of adult professionals. Contrary to User:Axl's ad hominem and completely unjustified attack on me, I did not (and never do) edit 'out-of-hand', and I did read his 'reference'. This reference says that Paravicini was curly-headed and angelic, which is not quite the same thing as meeting the qualifications for this article. There is no evidence in this reference that his performance at age 9 could compare with, or even that it approached, adult professional standards.

Just to assist Axl with references, here is an article about the concert itself. It makes clear that this was a charity event, which included the Royl Philharmoic Pops Orchestra, and that Paravicini played "jazz and popular tunes on a piano with an accomplished style" (and not, apparently, with the orchestra but with his teacher standing behind him). This may indeed have been great fun and appreciated by the audience, but is not in any sense prodigious. --Smerus (talk) 09:24, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

--Smerus (talk) 09:08, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Well you did edit this down to a very barebones level and removed all non-classical. Joey Alexander, Marvin Hamlisch, Sugar Chile Robinson, Stevie Wonder, Chris Thile, and Ricky Skaggs are pretty well known for being musical prodigies. Sugar Chile looks to be known as little else as he quit music young only returning in late life. So your standards, IMO overcorrected for an earlier problem. It looks like when you pared it down it was too large, unwieldy, and helter-skelter in what was included. I just think maybe the way it is now is going too far the other way. In particular Alexander, Robinson and Hamlisch I'll go out on a limb and say should return. I may return them myself if no one else does--Tibby57721 (talk) 03:18, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

You are of course welcome to add anything, if it is supported by reliable third party sources which make it clear that, whilst at the age of 10 or below, the person concerned achieved the standard of adult professionals (which is the WP definition of "child prodigy"). The musicians in the list you have supplied may be "pretty well known for being musical prodigies" but that is not evidence as required by WP. --Smerus (talk) 11:14, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

I did and I will.--Tibby57721 (talk) 18:28, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Joey Alexander.

I removed Joey Alexander - again - because the supporting reference says simply that he "won an all-ages competition in Europe when he was 9". Doesn't say where this took place, what the standards were (local, national, international?), whether it was amateur or professional competition, or in any way make it clear that he "produce[d] meaningful output in some domain to the level of an adult expert performer." --Smerus (talk) 19:07, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

People like you are damaging Wikipedia. If you want to remove him, do the research to justify it. ---Dagme (talk) 23:34, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Give me a week for more references.--Tibby57721 (talk) 19:17, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Fine. The New York Times article says "He was 9 when he entered the first Master-Jam Fest, an all-ages jazz competition in Ukraine. He won its grand prize." I guess this may be what is referred to. This annd this is all I can find out about it. Seems like the Festival was only held from 2013 to 2016. According to this Joey came 6th out of 46 competitors, a few days before his 10th birthday. I don't think this does the trick. But maybe you can find something more. Best, --Smerus (talk) 20:14, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Well I guess you did your due diligence. Okay.--Tibby57721 (talk) 14:17, 7 May 2021 (UTC)