Talk:List of United States Military Academy first captains

Proposed for deletion

Hi Fram, I note that you have proposed this article for deletion. Is there an opportunity for editors to contribute to the decision making process? If so, where might one find the relevant discussion or whatever? If not, why not. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:11, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Gog the Mild it's not an issue anymore. As far as I can tell, there never was a discussion. It was tagged "Not a notable subject, lacks independent sources". It currently has plenty of sources, and West Point Academy etal is notable. — Maile (talk) 04:14, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Maile66, pleased to hear it. If so, why is the tag still there. Can it be removed? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:08, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Removed. — Maile (talk) 19:11, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Note to Hawkeye7

@Hawkeye7: Hope you don't mind that I've been filling in the Comment column on each cadet. It occurred to me that the non-military reader might not understand the prestige of being First Captain. Aside from the individual awards/medals any of them had, this list certainly highlights that West Point has played part in training future leaders in both military and civilian lives. — Maile (talk) 18:37, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

That's fine. When you've finished we could co-nominate it at FLC. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:09, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Sounds like a plan. Can you find anything on O’Farrall Knight, besides what is there? I come up empty. — Maile (talk) 19:31, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Sure. You can read all about him here Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:12, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

I've given it my best shot. A few are left undone, but maybe you can do those. Whew! - this is one heck of a list! — Maile (talk) 20:22, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

I think you've done a great job. I'll go over it as soon as I can, probably on the weekend. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:36, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

@Hawkeye7: now that the AFD on Pratt has closed ... once the DYK review is complete ... I've spent the last week honing the table formatting for FLC. I thought of adding images, but most of the cadets don't have images on Commons, so just the lead image would also work (I think). FLC recommends taking a potential nomination through Wikipedia:Peer review first. What do you think? — Maile (talk) 23:15, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

I think it should be fine sending it straight to FLC. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:12, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

@Hawkeye7: I would love for us to take this to FLC as a team, but it's not advisable with the current status. I acknowledge that you are not in agreement with the discussion regarding suggested eventual DYK hooks. But unless that issue is resolved, I prefer not to take this through the FLC, where reviewers have a way of questioning ongoing issues, even if those issues seem unrelated to FLC. There are no DYK miracles in the works that will bring it around to your first choice. Some DYK regular nominators go through a whole lot more, as that is just the way DYK has evolved. And while I sympathize with you, the stalemate accomplishes nothing in either direction. Please think about this. — Maile (talk) 20:16, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

I want us to take this to FLC as a team too, and never had any intention of doing so until you felt it was ready. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:41, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Then we are a team on this. Perhaps agree with one of the suggested hooks on the nomination - I don't care which one - a hook the DYK dudes and dudettes will go with, should then move us forward. — Maile (talk) 20:49, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 09:28, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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Holland Pratt

• ... that Holland Pratt (pictured) is the First Captain of the Corps of Cadets at West Point, a position formerly held by John J. Pershing and Douglas MacArthur? Source: [1][2]
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Asahi Linux, Template:Did you know nominations/Butterfly (Kylie Minogue song)

Created by Hawkeye7 (talk). Self-nominated at 21:54, 27 April 2022 (UTC).

• ALT1 ... that West Point's Corps of Cadets First Captain Holland Pratt (pictured) is a Rhodes Scholar who will pursue two master of science degrees at the University of Oxford?

  Suggesting ALT 1. — Maile (talk) 21:54, 2 May 2022 (UTC) Source: Allen, Jim (November 23, 2021). "West Point cadet from Washington state named Rhodes Scholar". Stars and Stripes.

  Altered ALT1 slightly; Pratt is still at West Point. American academic years end in June, so she doesn't go to Oxford until later this year. She'll have company; three of her classmates will also be Rhodes Scholars. [3] Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:02, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

• Hawkeye7, Maile66, any updates? Szmenderowiecki (talk) 18:50, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

  @Szmenderowiecki: From my end, this is ready for DYK. My input was to add sourcing and some wording in the Comments column, in order to help the reader understand that those who held this position were on a path to substantive careers. Whether or not Hawkeye7 fills in the handful of blank spots in the Comments section, is really only relevant if this progresses to Feature List candidacy. — Maile (talk) 19:11, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

  FYI, what will kick up as a copyvio is the FirstCaptains.pdf - that is nothing but the list of names found here, and there is nothing else on that PDF except the list of names. — Maile (talk) 19:17, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

  @Szmenderowiecki: I'll get around to adding some more to the comments, but I think that is only relevant to its FLC, and not DYK. It should be fine for DYK. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:28, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

  So I understand that everyone will be all right if I promote this right now (personally I don't see much problems with this nomination at this point)? If so, which of the two hooks you prefer? Put a tick next to the one you prefer. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 20:31, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

  @Hawkeye7: - your call. Whichever one you prefer, I will go along with. — Maile (talk) 21:04, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

  Sure. Go with ALT1. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:11, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

• I am one of the nominators and cannot be the reviewer. The only reviewer has been @Szmenderowiecki: Someone else needs to Tick ALT1. And then a different person needs to promote it. — Maile (talk) 23:23, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Now I'm confused. Just under the nomination, it says that the article was created by Hawkeye and self-nominated. The history does indeed say that Maile66 created the majority of the article, but this also means that they must be explicitly mentioned as a co-nom. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 23:29, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Hawkeye7 added me in the credits after I started doing so much work on this. Even if I were not the nominator, I am a major contributor to the article, so I cannot possibly be the reviewer. I've left you a message at the DYK talk page. — Maile (talk) 23:39, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

• Full review needed, since no DYK review has been made that I can see. Thank you. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:07, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

• The article was new enough and long enough at the time of the nomination. Although Earwig's detects a match with [4], it's only because of the "[year] [name]" listings and thus it's not really a copyvio. QPQ has been done. The hooks are technically accurate (I do not have a particular preference at this time), but it may be worth specifying the year since the hooks will become outdated next year. Alternatively, another possible option could be a more generalist hook that omits mentioning Pratt but mentions Pershing and MacArthur could be proposed, though this does have the disadvantage of having to drop the image for that hook. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions)

  ALT2 ... that Holland Pratt (pictured) was the 2021–22 First Captain of the Corps of Cadets at West Point, a position formerly held by John J. Pershing and Douglas MacArthur?

  ALT3 ... that the 2021–22 West Point's Corps of Cadets First Captain Holland Pratt is a Rhodes Scholar who will pursue two master of science degrees at the University of Oxford?

@Narutolovehinata5 and Hawkeye7: The image is of such good quality, it would be a shame to eliminate it. Struck first two hooks, offering Alts 2-3 above. — Maile (talk) 13:44, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

ALT2's wording is a bit weird. The wording could sort of be interpreted to mean that Pershing or MacArthur was a First Captain in 2021-22 (which obviously isn't the case). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:32, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Narutolovehinata5, is there an issue with ALT3? With the article itself? I'm trying to figure out what's keeping this nomination from an approval at this point. Originally, ALT1, which is ALT3 without the dates, seemed to be the preferred hook by the article's authors. I've struck ALT2 because I agree it didn't transition well with the date added. (I've changed the hyphen to an en dash in the date range per MOS.) BlueMoonset (talk) 03:03, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

There wasn't anything wrong with the article myself. It's just that when an article has multiple hooks proposed and all are suitable, I just want to make sure all of them are ready at the same time so that the promoter can have a choice. In any case, as ALT2 is now struck and the problem-free ALT3 is the only option remaining, I'm approving the nomination. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:06, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

@Hawkeye7, Maile66, and Narutolovehinata5: Per the discussion at WT:DYK, I have removed this from the queue for now and reopened the nom page here. My original issue was that the hook might not meet criterion 3a, "interesting to a broad audience", especially as it was unclear if Holland herself was a notable individual. Now she has an article, and the discussion also touched on possibly expanding this into a double hook. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 10:07, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

There still seem to be some concerns if Pratt is notable enough to have her own article in the first place. If that's the case I would suggest doing an AFD to test consensus, then if the article is kept this nomination can proceed as a double nom. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:30, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

IMO, doing an AFD at this point, is counter productive, and seems to me like one more effort to derail this DYK nomination. People who contribute at AFD, and I am often one of them, may or may not know what they are looking at. There are no requirements to participating at AFD, and certainly no knowledge of DYK required to be a drive-by commentator at AFD. Brand new editors who have very little knowledge of any Wikipedia policies carry as much weight as editors who have taken articles to Feature List and Featured Content. It's also a place where nominations stagnate for long periods without anyone participating. And it is not a sideline requirement for nominating a DYK. — Maile (talk) 10:45, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

• ALT4 ... that Holland Pratt (pictured), the 2021–22 First Captain of the Corps of Cadets at West Point, is a Rhodes Scholar who will pursue two master of science degrees at Oxford?

Need a review of the new double hook. I have supplied a second QPQ. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 10:38, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

• FYI I've created an AfD for Holland Pratt at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Holland Pratt. --Tagishsimon (talk) 11:49, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
  • As the Holland Pratt article is at AfD, this nomination is perforce on hold until the discussion there closes. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:46, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

• @Hawkeye7, Szmenderowiecki, Narutolovehinata5, BlueMoonset, and Amakuru: moving along. I like Holland Pratt, but how about a new hook, good image and appropriate for a lead hook, if reviewers see it that way. We'd have to mention this in this nomination article's lead, but that would work.

*ALT5 ... that the first Asian cadet at West Point to be named First Captain of the cadets was John Tien (pictured), currently serving as United States Deputy Secretary of Homeland Security?

John Tien's image is in the above linked article - we'd have to insert it in this article, it's freely licensed as a government photo, and would look good on the main page. Thoughts, anyone? — Maile (talk) 00:39, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

I guess that could work if the Pratt angle doesn't work out. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:48, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Note: AfD has been closed. Nomination is good to go with approved ALT3. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:48, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

@Szmenderowiecki: do you still want to promote this? — Maile (talk) 23:02, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

I don't think this has received full approval yet. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 23:06, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes it has. It was already promoted. [5] We pulled it to add a second article to the hook, but that article has been deleted, so this nomination can be restored to the prep area. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:09, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

That would not be possible. There is some rough consensus (based on the WT:DYK discussion) that the hooks that mention Pratt could not run if she didn't have an article, and that objections were raised to ALT3 specifically. Given the circumstances, this will need a new review (I see that Hawkeye7 struck ALT5; however, as it didn't have the Pratt mention issues, I am re-suggesting it below for re-review). For the next reviewer, two hooks will be on offer here: one is a revised version of ALT0 but without Pratt being mentioned, and the other is ALT5 (I have struck ALT3 per the WT:DYK discussion).

ALT5 ... that the first Asian American cadet at West Point to be named First Captain of the cadets was John Tien (pictured), currently serving as United States Deputy Secretary of Homeland Security? (if there's a desire to include Tien's picture, that's fine)

ALT6 ... that previous First Captains of the Corps of Cadets at West Point include John J. Pershing and Douglas MacArthur?

Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 06:09, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Here's Tien's image, but both the image and blurb about him need to be inserted into the lead. — Maile (talk) 11:48, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

John Tien

@Hawkeye7 and Narutolovehinata5: I stuck Tien and his image in the lead, leaving Pratt there also. It looks bad. But then the other question comes to mind: OK, he was the first Asian. Who was the first African American? Who was the first non-American (possibly Daine Van de Wall). And as attractive as Pratt is, by the time this is on the main page, she'll be off to Oxford and there will be a new First Captain. — Maile (talk) 14:50, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

@Hawkeye7 and Narutolovehinata5: I have the images in the lead, in a way that I think might work with ALT5. Please have a look and see if we can go with this. — Maile (talk) 19:25, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Because I proposed a hook above (even if it was just a shortening of an original hook) I'm not really comfortable doing another review so I'd like to ask for a new reviewer to take a look at this. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 06:42, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

@Kavyansh.Singh, Drmies, and Victuallers: we seem to be temporarily bogged down on this. Would it be possible for one of you to review ALTs 5 and 6? — Maile (talk) 17:03, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

I have to note that, in the article, the caption for Tien is missing a comma after "Tien". Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:15, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Caption fixed. Thanks for catching. — Maile (talk) 01:10, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

New reviewer needed for ALTs 5 and 6. I've put the Tien image in proper DYK format, and added "(pictured)" to ALT5. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:11, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

BlueMoonset, This article had a hook and it was approved. I'm here to help the DYK project. The hook was knocked back because someone didn't like it.... being bogged down was predictable and I thank those who indulged this misjudgement. I don't want to encourage disregard of DYKs consensus process. Apologies to Hawkeye7, but this process needs fixing. Victuallers (talk) 07:16, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

The issue here is that there's a long-standing guideline that hooks cannot mention red-linked people by name unless there was good reason to do so. With Pratt no longer having an article, the hooks mentioning her could simply not run at all regardless of the merits of whether or not the original hook was appropriate in the first place. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:53, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

And we moved past that a long time ago. Right now, we just need a reviewer to check ALTs 5 and 6, so we can hopefully finally approve this nomination. — Maile (talk) 14:42, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook eligibility:

• Cited:
• Interesting:
• Other problems:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: My preference would be for ALT5 which to me is much more interesting. Full disclosure: I copied citations for the Pershing hook facts for ALT6 and fixed a broken template on the page, so as not to delay this further. Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 03:50, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Rank capitalization style

@Billmckern and Hawkeye7: Can either of you state the official military style, or the Wikipedia guidelines, on the capitalization of US military ranks? I've been listing them according to the source. Billmckern is beginning to change everything to all lower case, which I don't believe is correct, based on the US Army's own website. 1 the University of Chicago does not lowercase the ranks. 2 I don't readily find the subject at WP:MILHIST. Generals.dk capitalizes everything. Also see United States Army officer rank insignia. If we intend to take this up to FLC - and I think we should - this issue will come up. — Maile (talk) 23:46, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

@Hawkeye7 and Maile66: I think this will help:

MIlitary terms: "Military ranks follow the same capitalization guidelines as given under § Titles of people, below. For example, Brigadier General John Smith, but John Smith was a brigadier general."

Billmckern (talk) 23:54, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. Now we can all coordinate around that guideline. — Maile (talk) 00:59, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

@Maile66: No trouble. I started making edits on the first captains article while I was working on something else just because I noticed some missing birth and death dates and bio notes, and couldn't leave them alone.

Billmckern (talk) 02:00, 8 June 2022 (UTC)