Talk:List of The Legend of Zelda characters/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

81.134.37.166's recent edit

Is this correct? Power, Courage, Wisdom... despite playing ALttP about three times through by now, I can't recall which it was. But I'm fairly certain that the "signature" Triforce pieces are different. The games usually have that Zelda holds Wisdom, Link acquires Courage, and Ganon wants Power, based on the character's personality. Can someone confirm this? I guess I could look in the manual... Master Thief Garrett 00:43, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

That was how it was split up later on, but the distinction in the Zelda II storyline, when the third Triforce was first introduced, doesn't seem so clear cut. According to the Zelda II manual,

There are three kinds of Triforce - Power, Wisdom, and Courage. When these three are brought together, the Triforce will share its maximum power. Of the three, I have left Power and Wisdom in the kingdom. But the Triforce of Courage I have hidden for a reason.

So it seems reasonable that Ganon's followers would be after the one that was hidden, just as Link spends this game tracking it down. Deco 01:08, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well, that's interesting... but why would they want to get it "off" her if it wasn't "on" her to begin with? In most games she actually has that piece in her physical possession, except in Z1 where she breaks it up. so I don't really know... while it's certainly not POV the facts of the matter aren't exactly clear, and accuracy is the goal... so maybe it should be changed to "the Triforce piece she held" or some such generic thing? That way it's not right, but no-one can say it's wrong either. Master Thief Garrett 01:16, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

About this page

I am tired of having 500,000+ pages for each obscure character and monster in the Zelda series. The ones that appear in a single game are moved to their own Characters page, the ones that appear in more than one are placed here. Please DO NOT revert this, most characters DO NOT deserve their own pages. If you disagree, you MUST GIVE REASONS HERE or I will mercilessly revert any "fanboy" changes. That is all. Master Thief Garrett 03:49, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Okie dokie.

Impa appears in many games, is important in all of them (although you don't see her in-game in LoZ and AoL). She isn't among the ranks of Beaver Bros. or anything. Plus, your merging shows inconsistency. You include characters that appear in multiple games in OoT's section, ala Epona, and in the TWW section, you leave out the Great Deku Tree.--A Link to the Past 13:59, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

So you think Impa deserved her own page? Yes, I did wonder about that. Well, if you have powers of revert-ness you can restore her there. I could always copy-'n'-paste, but a revert would be tidier.

nonono, I haven't touched the OOT/WW pages yet, AT ALL, except to dump some bosses etc. in. Therefore Epona and such are the way the previous editor(s) must have left it. I was mainly trying to keep everything together. Later on such changes to the individual series' pages can be made.

One exception you may or may not agree with is Skull Kid. I've put him on the MM chars page (with, eventually, a OOT cross-link) because in OOT he has no role whatsoever. Well, you get an item from him if you do (spoiler goes here) but other than that, no role. He's not even named. Therefore, even though he technically appeared there, I decided it was best to keep him on the MM page, which, after all, is a game centered around him. Master Thief Garrett 22:02, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Suggestions for moves and cleanup

For the same reason that Skull Kid is in the Majora's Mask article, I think the Old Man should be in an article for characters from the original The Legend of Zelda. He appeared in one little-known remake of the original, that's not enough to qualify for this page. I've also combined the three goddesses into one section, because they're so closely related, and left references where they were. I also removed horizontal lines before section titles - there's enough of a break there. I've also eliminated redundant context specifying that these are fictional characters from the Legend of Zelda universe. Also need to kill lots of links internal to this article. I also unbolded titles, since they're not in their own articles anymore. Deco 06:03, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The horizontal lines were temporary. Because initially there were all these bullet-point entries and I was just pasting data in alphabetically, so I wanted to be able to clearly see where the unwritten ones were.

But there's no article about LOZ chars, at least not yet. And who would be on such a list? The Old Man, the Old Woman, Link, Zelda, Ganon, and that's about it! I don't know that those few deserve their own section. So really I don't know where he should be!

Similarly, Moosh, Ricky, Dimitri, Marin, Tarin, etc. don't really deserve their own game character pages... do they? Master Thief Garrett 11:55, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Good point re the Old Man - guess he should stay. Consider making a page for characters that only appear in the Oracle games. There could also reasonably be a page for Link's Awakening characters; there were several unique characters in that game, such as Mr. Write, Marin, Tarin, Robert, the owl, the witch, the Wind Fish (there was a witch in Link to the Past and an owl in Ocarina of Time, but different ones). Deco 03:17, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Oh, yes, I'd forgotten about the Wind Fish! All right then, I'll do that. There's potentially even less for the Oracles, as many of its characters are from previous games. But we'll see... Master Thief Garrett 03:40, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You're too quick for me. I was about done with it and about to tell you. Sorry. Deco 03:59, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

LOL! When I say "I'll do that" I mean "probably sometime this week"! I don't necessarily run off and immediately study up to write whatever it is! So don't worry. Master Thief Garrett 04:48, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

My Recent Cleanup

I cleaned up the page earlier today, removing many duplicate wikilinks and the such, but I am almost certain to have missed some, and didn't check the Marin section at all apart from the first sentence, as I am yet to finish Link's Awakening and did not want to ruin anything. Therefore if anyone would be willing to check the Marin section or do a general check for anything I might have missed I would be most greatful. Ian Moody 14:07, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

OK, I'll have a look. I've already done a couple of other things. Master Thief Garrett 23:49, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Suggestions for Their Own Pages

We should work on giving credit where credit is deserved. Not to say that they MUST have their own pages, but the following I believe deserve some debating.

• Skull Kid - Appears in two games, important in one, semi-important in another. Plus, we can divulge in the Skull Kid species.
• Kaepora Gaebora (+Owl) - Appears in three games. Discussion of connection between Kaepora Gaebora and the Owl from Link's Awakening.
• Old Man - Appears in The Legend of Zelda, Oracle of Ages and Oracle of Seasons.
• Own Page for the Three Animal Helpers - They can be grouped together and then warrant their own page.
• Own Page for the Three Oracles - They can be grouped together and then warrant their own page.
• Deku Tree - Appears in Ocarina of Time, The Wind Waker, and is believed to possibly be Level one of the original Zelda.
• Epona - Appears in Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, Minish Cap, Four Swords Adventures, Oracle of Ages and Oracle of Seasons (I think).
• Lord Jabu-Jabu - Appears in Ocarina of Time and Oracle of Ages, and there are theories of if he is the Wind Fish or not.
• King Zora - Appears in A Link to the Past, Ocarina of Time, and resembles the leader of the Indigo-gos in Majora's Mask.
• Agahnim - Co-main villain of A Link to the Past, mini-boss in Oracle of Seasons, possible connection between the Wizard of Zelda II.
• Vaati - Main villain of three games. Need I say more?
• Tingle - No page, I can't really see. And if Tingle alone doesn't warrant a page, then how about the Tingle Brothers? Tingle appears in Majora's Mask, Oracle of Ages, Wind Waker and Minish Cap. --A Link to the Past 00:34, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

A game count alone does not justify article creation. I would argue that almost none of these are sufficiently notable, in a general context, to warrant their own article, only in the limited context of Zelda games. In contrast, Link, Zelda, and Ganon are trademark characters that have passed beyond the games into the general culture, and this impact justifies their articles and gives us more to talk about, even though Zelda and Ganon don't appear in a number of games. Vaati and Impa have their own articles, but if it were my decision they wouldn't. We have extremely limited information available on any of these characters above - what use in creating tiny articles that can never realistically be any larger, when we already have these paragraphs conveniently gathered in one place? And what relevance do they have in the broader culture of the real world to sit at the same level as chemistry, baseball, Abraham Lincoln, and Star Trek? Deco 04:30, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Vaati doesn't deserve his own article? (and, from what I can see, he doesn't. He was grouped into a different Article) Vaati was the villain of three games and has adequate information on him. Also, it doesn't have to be amazingly important to warrant an article. Goombas aren't that important, and their page is a featured article. Also, the ones I think should DEFINITELY get their own articles are the three Oracles, the three Helper Animals, Vaati, Agahnim and Deku Tree. Agahnim and the Deku Tree are VERY important to the games. --A Link to the Past 05:06, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

um, yeah... the thing is that those characters are a blink in the eye of even the Zelda world, let alone the outside world. While the Old Man once attained cult status due to his creation of the dialect of Old Mannish, I can't see what Ricky, Moosh, or Dimitri have achieved. Most Zelda fans have hardly ever heard of them, if you know what I mean... similarly, Skull Kid isn't a noteworthy character outside of his own game(s), and most people wouldn't even know he's Majora's Mask... hmmm... Master Thief Garrett 06:58, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Tingle, I could see, yes, but what would be said there? Well, other than the fact he's believed to be a horrendously bad Japanese gay stereotype of course...

Vaati doesn't have his own page! I moved him to The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords subseries characters. I plan to eventually add TMC things there too. Or something. So he doesn't have his own page either. Not sure what happened to Impa... something or other...

Basically you're saying we should undo a lot of my work. When I began the whole point was to unify the crapola of tiny stubs out there into wherever they best belonged, and you want to make separate articles about the animal helpers and Epona?!? They're just... just non-notable.

They were cool and awesome in their games, yes, but what are they to the average Wikipedian outside of our sphere of knowledge? Ask yourself these questions...

• is Epona a transcendent character?
• is Tingle instantly recognisable?
• are Moosh and Dimitri distinguishable from Pokemon?
• does Ricky look like Kanga's husband?
• do people see the name Kaeopora Unspellabla and not think "WTF is that?!?"
• does Skull Kid sound like a goth rock band?
• do the Oracles sound like some sort of wicca or fortune-teller hotline service?
• does "Old Man" make people think of Dr. D from Zoids more readily than Zelda?

What are the answers? I leave that up to you. Master Thief Garrett 07:32, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Honestly now, Tingle has been appearing in more and more games. He's been in four games in five years! You can discuss his variosu roles, the Tingle Tuner, theories about connections between the several Tingles (such as Wind Waker's Tingle and Majora's Mask's Tingle, if they're related or the same being).

The Oracles separated didn't warrant their own page, but put together, they can have a decent page size. Same with the Animals. It's not about if everyone will recognize them; They just have to be popular enough in their respective series to warrant such an article. And again, the ones who do are Link, Zelda, Ganon, Impa, Agahnim, Deku Tree, Vaati and Tingle Brothers.--A Link to the Past 14:31, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

I have to admit, I would never have guessed anyone could write so much stuff about Goombas. I'm willing to make a compromise here: for now, let the characters remain where they are, but if one of them "outgrows" (becomes too large for) their summary article, and no one can cut it down to size without losing essential content, then they can be extracted into their own article at that time. I think this is a better approach than optimistically assuming they'll all have detailed articles in time. Sound fair enough? Deco 18:01, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

I could go for that. --A Link to the Past 03:24, May 10, 2005 (UTC)

Well, I think that you can't really argue that Agahnim isn't out-growing this page. I've taken the incentive to break him away from this page. Leave comments paleez.--A Link to the Past 11:28, May 21, 2005 (UTC)

Sure, okay. Just remember to leave a short section here linking to any characters you remove, as I've done in this instance. I cleaned up the new article and added a section on Agahnim's battle tactics. I think it turned out okay as its own article. Deco 23:29, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Oracles and goddesses

This page makes the case that the oracles are not the goddesses or avatars of them, merely powerful persons named after them. I don't know if we can definitively say either way, but this article seems to identify them as being the same. Maybe we should break them up. Deco 03:08, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

That's probably true. While they do have powers, Veran & Co. still easily capture them, so I guess they're not goddesses after all... I wonder what TSA thinks, heheheh... Master Thief Garrett^Talk 04:22, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

The page you linked to doesn't exactly say they're just "powerful persons" with their names. Like the current explanation for the many Links throughout the timeline of the series, I believe their names and appearances of course aren't coincidental, and that the term "oracle" fits them nicely, as intermediaries of the three goddesses. Nevertheless, you're right in that they are distinctly different from the goddesses -- they're human -- and this fact should be noted. --Tryforceful 03:27, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Screenshots/Pictures

Please try to find screenshots or [Official Nintendo] Drawings of most or all the characters listed here. (Like Lord Jabu-Jabu and the old man)

All such images violate other people's copyrights, so are not legal to use except possibly under fair use doctrine. It's better if we can use images we use with permission or with full rights given to use them. Deco 08:42, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Characters in only one game

As far as I am aware, the following characters listed appear in only one game, and should be moved to the respective game's character page. This page should be exclusively for those characters appearing in multiple games. I feel almost as if those characters who appear only in two games in which it is clear that the same Link is involved should be removed too, but I'll hold off on arguing that case just yet.

1. Anju's Grandmother
2. Beever Bros.
3. Bomber's Gang
4. Deku Butler
5. Cremia
6. Darmani
7. Japas
8. Kafei
9. Lulu

And then there's Beedle, who I consider a borderline case with the mention of a "relative" who appears in another game. I'm going to wait a little while and see if anyone can come up with two games that the above characters appear in, but if not, I'm removing them from here (and merging them to the appropriate page if there isn't already an entry there). Fieari July 4, 2005 00:09 (UTC)

Please, feel free. Deco 4 July 2005 00:38 (UTC)

Suggestions Pt. 2

Let's get the ball rolling... (referencing all characters who have multiple appearances, or are just that important in their respective games)

• Kaepora Gaebora - Appeared in Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, Four Swords Adventures, Twilight Princess and is similar to the Owl from Link's Awakening. I think he should be given his own page.
• Beedle - Appeared in TWW (with relatives all over the Great Sea), and appears in Minish Cap.
• Tingle and the Brothers - Tingle appears in Majora's Mask, The Wind Waker, Smash Bros. Melee, Four Swords Adventures and Minish Cap, and with the Figurines, Tingle and his Brothers have plenty of info.
• The Oracles - Separate, not enough information, but joined together, they can have an adequate page.
• The Animal Helpers - Like the Oracles, if you separate them, they lack adequate information, but combined, that page'd be adequate.
• Happy Mask Salesman - Involved in a sidequest in OoT (one of the few), one of the main characters of Majora's Mask, appears in Labrynna.
• The Great Deku Tree - An important character in Ocarina of Time, son eventually becomes the new Great Deku Tree, an important character in The Wind Waker.
• Epona - Appears in OoT, MM, FSA, OoS (intro), OoA (intro) and Twilight Princess.
• Skull Kid - Minor character in OoT, major character in MM
• Majora - Villain of MM
• Helmaroc King - powerful minion of Ganondorf, appears in TWW and FSA as well
• Old Man - Commonly seen in LoZ, Commonly seen in AoL, commonly seen in OoS/A
• Lord Jabu-Jabu - Important character and a level in OoT, important character and a level in OoA, believed to have a descendant in TWW by the name of Jabun. If not its own page, should it be merged into the Zora article? -- A Link to the Past 21:48, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

• What about adding the postman? I know he isn't integral, but he's been around in at least three games that come to mind, if not more.

Marin and Malon

I added that Marin in Link's Awakening was the same as (or at least the basis for) Malon in later games (OoT's Malon was a singer, like LA's Marin; both have Mario-like lazy fathers whose names fall into the same pattern and begin with Ts; the Japanese language doesn't distinguish between Ls and Rs; and a magazine I once subscribed to (granted, not Nintendo Power) clearly referred to them as the same character) but it was reverted. Thoughts? --HeroicJay 01:18, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

A magazine I once subscribed to said you could get all Ocarina songs at Lake Hylia. And that there was a pink Tunic.

Anyway, any similarity can be chalked up to the fact that it is a DREAM. - A Link to the Past (talk) 01:47, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

I don't even think I want to know what magazine you're referring to (mine is Tips and Tricks). Link's Awakening came out first (in the real world) so I think we have a cause-and-effect issue here. So the best argument that you have that Marin and Malon are not the same (or based on each other) is that the one that came out first was "a dream" in its plot? Perhaps next you'll say that the Roc's Feather in the Oracle games wasn't based on the one in Link's Awakening? Or that perhaps Shyguys did not originate (as far as Mario games go) in Super Mario Bros. 2? Color me unconvinced. --HeroicJay 02:04, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

The Roc Feathers ARE different in OoS/A and LA. Marin IS a different character; Does Malon have wings? No? Because Marin does. - A Link to the Past (talk) 02:53, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

Er, Marin only has wings in one ending, which is optional. And what makes them so different? They are different feathers/women by the storyline, make no mistake, but I can't see how you could possibly make the argument that one is not based on the other, in either case. I mean, techically, going by the storyline, I can think of four different Malons not counting Marin or Romani/Cremia, and more Links and Zeldas than I care to be bothered to count. --HeroicJay 03:18, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

I never claimed she wasn't based on her; you said at least, and I was focusing on your first argument. Even so, it can't be shown when they OFFICIALLY created Malon. Hell, Marin may have been created as a dream form of Malon. - A Link to the Past (talk) 03:47, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

Very well; we don't know which game's production was started first. However, does that mean that Marin shouldn't be mentioned in Malon's article at all? Anyway, I don't know the exact Japanese equivalent of either character's name, but I'm willing to bet money that they're identical. --HeroicJay 03:51, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Change bet to guess; that's all it is. There is no basis, other than similarity in form and similarity in name, that they are the same. They are entirely different people, in personality, and, we assume that Link never died in Link's Awakening (canon-wise), so, canonwise, she escapes Koholint and becomes a seagull. - A Link to the Past (talk) 04:03, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

Nope. Bet. I would put money on the Japanese spelling of both names being identical. And, as far as I can tell, they're not all that different in what little personality we can see; both are daydreamers, both have obvious crushes on Link, both love animals, etc. The only significant difference I see at all between Marin and Malon (aside from the English spelling of the name) is the fact that Marin is the only form of Malon not seen on a ranch—a point that isn't very significant if you consider that Marin was the first incarnation (so the character hadn't been cemented fully yet). I mean, you may as well argue that the Zolas in the first game, and the Zoras in Ocarina of Time onward, are unrelated because they look different and have different English spellings of their name. Perhaps not the same, but the latter is pretty clearly based on the former. --HeroicJay 06:12, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

PS. And I'm not really sure what your point is concerning Link not dying and Marin becoming a seagull. It's pretty well established that the OoT Link is the first known Link (chronologically from the games' point of view) and generally accepted that the LA Link is different, so we may not even be talking about the same century game-wise. --HeroicJay 06:15, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

PPS. Furthermore, I feel that the line of distinction here is 100% based on the English translation of the name, or is otherwise arbitrary. In the articles about Link, Zelda, Tingle, Impa and so forth, it is pretty clear that the various incarnations of each can't be literally the same person, and sometimes they have slightly different features or personality traits (LttP Zelda and WW Zelda, as a somewhat extreme example, or even more extreme, the varying forms of Impa) and yet they're each put into one article. --HeroicJay 06:40, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

For one, you're basically arguing that this single assumption is legitimate enough to be used to state this as fact. For another, Malon does not look like Zelda. For even one more, you're ASSUMING again that they created Marin first. For even more then, it's the difference between Zola and Zora - one letter, while Marin and Malon are a two letter difference, and i and o are not very similar and are very uncommon mistakes. Zoras and "Zolas" are obviously different, as they coexist with eachother in OoA, where one are peaceful, sea Zoras, and the other lives in rivers and attacks passerbys. And what gave you ANY idea that I was even claiming that they were similar? Marin is a half-seagull, and was created on Koholint by the Wind Fish. They are not the same entity; perhaps the Wind Fish may have encountered Malon, or somehow recognizes her. Much of the content of Koholint can be attributed to memory; Agahnim, Ganon (Ganon may be in more than LttP, but the way he battled was just like in LttP), Moldorm, etc. Koholint was created from memory, so Marin could only possibly be based on Malon, and cannot be the same entity as Malon.

And your claim that there are multiple Tingles is ludicrous; In The Wind Waker, Tingle is able to translate the Triforce Maps, which are written in Hylian, a language understood by only the oldest of creatures in the Great Sea. Only Valoo, Jabun, King of Hyrule, Tingle, Ganondorf, Medli (learned it from the other Rito kid's Grandmother in order to communicate with Valoo), the two dead and The Great Deku Tree know this language, and only one of those is not an ancient creature (Tingle is debatable, but the fact is that Medli is the only one whose knowledge of the language is explained). As for Link and Zelda, all Links and Zeldas are resurrections of the Hero of Time, meaning that technically, they are all one entity. And if you examine Impa's appearances in the various games, as you get into the later games of the timeline, she's older in that one than in the last, so since we do not know how old Sheikahs can age to, perhaps there is only one Impa? - A Link to the Past (talk) 06:55, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

You're not saying a single thing to sway me. Unless you can find from a primary source the Japanese names of LA's Marin and OoT (or any subsequent game, except of course MM)'s Malon, and show me that they are, indeed, different (that's info I'm trying to look for myself), I will not concede that they are meant to be any more different than other multipled characters (and the Tingle argument you gave was absurd; if it was as simple as translating Hylian, why didn't the King do it?) --HeroicJay 07:02, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

And, to give you an idea on my luck, I'm finding no primary sources, but a lot of secondary sources that support them being the same and a lot supporting them being different. Including what looks to an old Wikipedia article that has since been turned into a redirect. --HeroicJay 07:11, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and I forgot to address the seagull argument. Technically, we don't know that seagull-Marin was anything more than a treat for the player. She certainly isn't half-seagull in the main plot. --HeroicJay 07:15, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Wait, I have to prove to YOU that Marin and Malon are different? In no official source has Nintendo claimed that Malon and Marin are the exact same entities. The burden of proof is on YOU to show me why they are, beyond any shadow of a doubt, the same person.

Um, unless my eyes deceive me, the Triforce Maps HAVE Hylian text written on them, and Tingle Tower has Hylian written on it. Who knows why the King didn't deceipher them? All we know is that the Triforce Maps were written in ancient Hylian, as shown by the similarity of the characters on the Triforce Maps in constrast to the language spoken by many characters. Unless it's some unknown language that this Tingle RANDOMLY knows, there is no reason to believe that this is some random descendent.

Marin states in-game that she wants to ask the Wind Fish to make her into a seagull so she can fly away, and he did. Marin exists outside of the dream. - A Link to the Past (talk) 08:38, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, you do have to prove it to me if I don't find the evidence first. Perhaps Nintendo has made no press statement on the subject, but several lines of evidence lead me there, with a single yet-to-be-presented piece of evidence finally proving it one way or another. And anyway, you are focusing on small details while ignoring the big picture. I do not care which character was created first, I do not care that Marin became a seagull, and I do not care that Link's Awakening was a dream. I accept that they are, storyline-wise, not exactly the same character, but as I've pointed out a dozen times, there are a whole bunch of Legend of Zelda characters that "appear" in multiple games but are mutually contradictory, main character included. And, if Marin was invented first, it is clear that Malon was based on her, perhaps to the point of sharing the same Japanese name. If Marin was not invented first, it is clear that she was based on Malon, perhaps to the point of sharing the same Japanese name (and, for matters like this, the Japanese name, which is the original, trumps the English name.) And I keep showing you counterexamples which you write off, looking for trivial similarities between the other characters while pointing out trivial differences between Marin and Malon. I mean, even the owl in LA is placed in the Kaepora Gaebora sub-article, even though *gasp* it only existed in a dream, was never referred to as "Kaepora Gaebora", and clearly can't be the same character. Why single out Marin? I see this phenominon on another Wiki I frequent: People vote for facts that they want to be true (or against facts they want to be false) even if logic points the other way. --HeroicJay 18:46, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Let me explain: What am I disproving? Nothing. You have failed, throughout this entire argument, to give me one good reason why we should pair Malon and Marin together. I want you to tell me RIGHT now whether or not you believe this is assumption or fact. - A Link to the Past (talk) 02:57, September 5, 2005 (UTC)

I would have replied to this sooner, but I've been taking a small Wikibreak.

So far in all my reading of the issue (which is an awful lot), there is no official verdict from Nintendo that the two are one and the same. In fact, the official word from Nintendo of America (found here) says quite the opposite; their encyclopedia gives different entities to both characters. Thus, the official verdict rules that Malon != Marin.

Beyond this, in the fan community (which I also have a strong ear to), it is a popular believe that Malon, presented chronologically after after Marin, is based on Marin. This does not mean that Malon is Marin, just that the two have a lot of similarities. However, in repudiation of this fact is the common belief that Marin herself was based off of Zelda, which is logically deducible based upon in-game evidence (Link confuses her as Zelda at first as well as the graphical similarities between Marin from Link's Awakening and Zelda from Oracle of Seasons/Ages) as well as manual inferences ("Marin bears an uncanny resemblance to Princess Zelda" (Link's Awakening Manual, 28).) This confuses the issue to the point where there cannot be any deducible equality between Marin and Malon since Malon was (obviously) not based upon Princess Zelda.

At the very least, Marin and Malon should not be equated to one and the same character. At the very most, Marin could be the basis for Malon. The Missing Link 06:10, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

As I've already stated, I personally believe that they're just as much the same character as any other recurring characters in the series (which admittedly doesn't say much) but since Malon is clearly based on Marin, then Marin should at least be mentioned in Malon's sub-article, even if it's worded as "It is debated whether or not they are supposed to be different incarnations of the same character, as many recurring Zelda characters" or somesuch. --HeroicJay 06:20, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

I never argued that it can't be brought up, but I was arguing against the idea that Marin has to be listed along with Malon. - A Link to the Past (talk) 06:51, September 5, 2005 (UTC)

In all honesty, I don't think that it's THIS article's purpose to talk about speculations of this magnitude. The scope of this article is rather big, covering all major Zelda characters throughout the series; I think because of that that we should be really limiting on the details of what gets discussed here. It is in the articles that narrow the scope The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time characters and beyond that really should elaborate upon each individual character and discuss their potential origins and whatnot. (I actually am disturbed personally that this article and the other I just mentioned have identical descriptions for Malon; what's the purpose of having one article that groups several articles together?) If anything, the discussion should be taking place there rather than here. The Missing Link 15:01, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Marin is from LA, not OoT. - A Link to the Past (talk) 19:34, September 5, 2005 (UTC)

Quite well aware of that. However, if a character from Game X was inspired by a character from Game Y, it would still merit discussion in an article about characters of Game X that this inspiration existed. The Missing Link 21:39, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Except that Malon is not only from game X, but game Z and game A and game B... I'm still quite convinced that Marin and Malon have identical Japanese names, which would merit Marin being listed "with" Malon IMHO, but without finding the actual proof, it doesn't look like I'm going to be convincing you. :( --HeroicJay 19:10, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

On Nintendo of Japan's Link's Awakening website, there is a discussion of the plot and storyline. Within the fifth paragraph (beginning with the picture of Marin), the second sentence in Japanese is "彼女の名はマリン。" This reads "kanojo no na wa marin," which is (loosely) translated as "The name of [his] sweetheart was マリン [Marin]." I sincerely wish I could find an official link for Malon's name in Ocarina of Time from Nintendo of Japan, but I've scoured their site to no avail. However, a simple Google search for the terms "Zelda Link Maron" will come out with tons of hits, so I think that provides me with enough rationale to say that it is indeed Maron (マロン) instead of Marin (マリン). The Missing Link 23:35, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure that proves it either way - it could just be a typo, an alternate translation, or an intentional mishmash of both names. (Especially when we consider that the "I" in "Marin" is a schwa, and schwas can be written as any vowel. The "O" in Malon isn't as clearly a schwa; the proper pronunciation of that name in English in unfortunately more vague, but it could be a schwa.) --HeroicJay 04:26, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, I speculate that Link is actually named after a skating rink because Link, in Japanese, is Rink. - A Link to the Past (talk) 07:48, September 8, 2005 (UTC)

If you were trying to be witty, I don't think you succeeded. I fail to see any point whatsoever to that. I have more supporting Marin and Malon being the "same" character than just their names. But since all of it is being ignored, I'm focusing on the name because, if it can be shown that they're the same in Japanese, I don't think that anyone can argue that Marin and Malon aren't the "same" character ("same" character in the sense that all the Links are the "same" character, before you start up on red herring arguments about seagulls and dreams.) --HeroicJay 07:58, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

No, but apparently, speculation is only usable in regard to yours. Are you sayins Wikipedia speculates fact now? You have similar name and appearance, and you say it can't be anything other than them being the same perrson. But you can't prove it. Throughout this whole argument, you will never be able to prove this. So, let's just assume you've already thrown your repetition out, and we'll be on our way? - A Link to the Past (talk) 13:19, September 8, 2005 (UTC)

You yourself have admitted that Malon is at least based on Marin. If they have the same Japanese name - the one thing that hasn't been proved yet - then who could argue against it? You seem to be calling it speculation only because you haven't come to the same conclusion. --HeroicJay 17:32, 8 September 2005 (UTC) PS. This isn't just mere random similarity. You're hard-pressed to look for relevant differences, not similarities. The dream thing, for example, is just a red herring to the main argument; as has already been pointed out, the Koholint Owl is already mentioned in the Kaepora Gaebora sub-article. And even if you can't see how similar Marin and Malon are, I must question if you're playing the same games that I am if you can't see that Tarin and Talon are essentially identical, ranch aside. And Marin/Malon is always portrayed as Tarin/Talon's daughter.

Don't you make up crap like that. There's a big difference between agreeing and not denying.

So, what, the fact that the games NEVER say that they're the same person isn't speculation? What, the game developers lack importance in debates about their creations now?

This is a case of "I ask for proof, you say they might have a similar name". One of the first lines in the game is that Marin looks like ZELDA. So, perhaps, Marin is based on Zelda, and Malon is based on Zelda. It's undeniable that Marin's basis is Zelda. Now, you see, if anything, Marin would reference Zelda, not Malon, because we actually have in-game proof. And Tarin/Talon have different personalities; Tarin is bumbling and foolish, while Talon is lazy and oafish. What you're suggesting is that we not focus on in-game stuff, and focus on the possibility that Nintendo made Malon with Marin in mind. - A Link to the Past (talk) 22:21, September 8, 2005 (UTC)

But I am focusing on the in-game stuff as well as a similarity of their name. Besides a single line in the manual, there is nothing anywhere in the game that says that Marin does look like Zelda, and most of the official art shows Marin (yes, the one from LA) with red hair (Zelda, on the other hand, has been a blonde since LttP). And Tarin is just as lazy as Talon; he spends large portions of the game sleeping just like Talon. Additionally, Minish Cap's Talon (at the very least) is just as bumbling in the small timeframe in which he actually does something. I've already pointed out a series of similarities between Marin and Malon: they are singers (and both teach you Ocarina songs, at least in the OoT incarnation of Malon), they are daydreamers, they have crushes on Link (which admittedly applies to about 95% of all of the female characters in the series), they are animal lovers, and of course there are the similarities in their names, and the names, actions, and appearances of their respective fathers. --HeroicJay 03:48, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

HeroicJay, are you for real? Whereas in English, theoretically they could sound the same, the Japanese language is VERY explicit about how things are pronounced. Ever character (literally phoneme) in the Japanese kana has a distinct pronounciation; a given combination of mora in Japanese can produce ONLY one pronounciation. Words of a different set of mora cannot produce the same pronounciation as another word. As such, Marin (マリン, pronounced "Mah-lee-n") is explicitly different in Japanese to Maron (マロン, pronounced "Mah-loh-n"). What I don't understand, however, is that you're claiming that the names are the same in Japanese, yet you're arguing your case by discussing concepts about the English language and/or reducing my argument so that it just "might" be a typo. The first thread of logic doesn't contribute to the discussion at all, whereas the second reduces it to just shy of a conspiracy theory; neither of which are very beneficial to your claim. The Japanese games (and thus, the primary source) delineate the two to be very different characters (inso far that they are spelled different), and the English Nintendo of America website provides no counterargument to that. Thus, I really fail where exactly your evidence is that Marin and Malon are the same entity. Pretty much, it sums up to the following: Present proof of it. Until you can do that to counter what I've come up with, I have to say that the official record is against you. The Missing Link 02:16, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Do you know what the Japanese name of Malon is? Do you have proof? Last time you posted, you said that you did not. I didn't say that they are the same, I said that they could be and that I very strongly suspected it until it was shown otherwise, which has not happened. And even if their names aren't identical, they are pretty close. Add this to the similarities I listed above, and I think that it should be noted, at the very least, that there is a similarity between them, even if only in an "origins" point of view. --HeroicJay 03:37, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Dude, don't freaking delete peoples' edits on talk pages unless their vandals. That in itself is vandalism; so I take the liberty of calling you such, you vandal.

What is irrelevant about it? Is proving your statement THAT unimportant? Let me point out that 0% of your edits on this talk page contain proof, not even to the idea that either one is based on the other. If your next edit doesn't prove it, don't bother, vandal. - A Link to the Past (talk) 03:52, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

I deleted it because I hate edit conflicts, and the edited version of my comment didn't seem to have anything to do with your comment (even if you were addressing the un-edited version.) My apologies, but spending a lot of time on a different Wiki has made me very paranoid about edit conflicts. --HeroicJay 03:57, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

And, frankly, reviewing the comment that I deleted, it makes you look abusive as well. --HeroicJay 03:59, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

How is it abusive? It seems this is the first time you even bothered to acknowledge the fact that your theory has no place on Wikipedia. You havre never bothered to respond when I pointed out that you are trying to put speculation in the article and label it as fact. No in-game content supports you, no single member of Nintendo supports you, and you still don't have any proof that their Japanese names are the same, while Missing Link gave a well-made response. It is our duty in this debate to disprove your proof. But since you haven't, we do NOT assume that Marin and Malon are the same, or based on eachother. You are wrong. Get over it. - A Link to the Past (talk) 04:28, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

First of all, the line was basically mildly insulting, and it essentially that "we won't listen to a word you're saying" (which is fairly obvious). I was about to add it back, but decided against it. The sad thing is, multiple times you have agreed with the central point to my argument, but then you turn against it and say that it has no place. So I expect that you will be removing all mention of the Koholint owl from this, because not doing so makes you look like a severe hypocrite. Heck, after all this, I won't even revert it (I make no promises for other users). --HeroicJay 04:47, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Good thing no one is so interested in violating guidelines as you are. Here, let me spell it out for you.

You have no proof. - A Link to the Past (talk) 04:56, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

And you have no proof that Kaepora is based on the Koholint owl. Hypocrisy is fun, isn't it? --HeroicJay 04:59, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Ah, never mind, you did remove the info. Now let's see how long it is before someone (and it won't be me) adds it back. --HeroicJay 05:02, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I have verified Malon's name in Japanese. I found this within the Ocarina of Time manga by Himegawa (and worked with Nintendo of Japan in making). Page 83, lower-right panel. Maron (マロン), as expected. The Missing Link 06:47, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

I still say that they're really really close (and not just in name) and should be listed together, but as long as there's a consensus to leave the really really obvious facts about origins out of the Wiki, then I might as well end this discussion. --HeroicJay 07:19, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Jeez, will you freaking answer the question? I REALLY love how you say it's an obvious fact when you haven't even given me, say, an email from even a representative of NoA! Try to back up your statement of it being obviously a fact, okay?

And I'll take your quitting of the argument as conceding that there is no evidence of a connection. Just speculation. - A Link to the Past (talk) 07:36, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

No, it's more of a concession that, no matter how many times I give the evidence, you're going to ignore it. So, as long as the obvious origins of all characters are left off, at least we're consistent. Tell me it's not really really obvious once someone else tries to mention the Koholint owl (or the Marin/Malon connection) on this page. I'd like to point out that I was not the first person to make either connection on this Wiki, and I suspect I won't be the last. --HeroicJay 07:45, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and to address an earlier complaint that Marin may be based on Malon rather than the other way around as I've been advocating, I have proof that that is not the case. Assuming the information on both pages is accurate, that is. --HeroicJay 08:20, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

You're a bit new to Wikipedia, so I'll let this pass, but you have not provided evidence of similarities. Malon looks someone like LttP Zelda too, you know. - A Link to the Past (talk) 11:31, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

I provided evidence multiple times, and I'll do it again if you want me to. Perhaps you're confusing the word "evidence" with the word "proof"? --HeroicJay 17:21, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Jay, you're changing the goal line now. At the very beginning, your entire point was based upon two primary concepts--a few connecting similarities as well as identical Japanese names. (The tertiary source of the non-official magazine is far from the tree given the type of evidence we're considering.) I've show that one of the legs of your argument, them having identical names, is faulty. This should reduce you down to similarity of character (both Marin/Malon and less importantly Tarin/Talon).

No you're saying that all the time I spent looking up canon sources to find out spellings of names (in a difficult language for me, no less) is meaningless because the names are "similar" enough to conclude the same result. I could have told you they had similar names from the very beginning and not wasted my time with the research of it. However, you position now retreats to a defensive position. You're making the logical claim that X → Y (Marin and Malon are similar,X, implies that they are the same or based upon one another, Y). The problem with your argument here is twofold. (1) X cannot be proven incorrect; it's common knowledge that they are similar characters, so I can't refute the evidence you're using for the claim. The larger problem, (2), is that X (without identical naming in the Japanese source) may not be sufficient to prove Y anymore.

Let me propose it to you this way. Nayru, Din, and Farore from Oracle of Ages and Seasons. It is common knowledge that they share names with the goddesses. It is common knowledge that the colours they wear match the "colour" of the Triforce their corresponding goddess created. However, it is not provable by any means that the Oracles are the goddesses, and most people don't believe that anyways, and they even share the name of another character.

At the very worst case, you can say that the two were based upon one another, but once you do this, you bring back the original counterpoint that Marin was clearly based upon Zelda, which complicates the issue of who inspired who. At this point, a letter to Nintendo of America would be a wise idea to clear up the matter, or even provide a simple sentence such as, "It is popular believe that concept of Malon was based off of Marin from Link's Awakening, but this fact is largely speculation," and drop the issue. The Missing Link 12:45, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Them being "based upon" one another is exactly the point I've been trying to make for most of this argument, especially since you pointed out the minor name difference (mind you, I'm assuming that your previous message was you pointing out the name difference; before then, you admitted that you did not know the Japanese name and then jumped down my throat for not accepting that the names were different after you "pointed it out"... goalpost moving indeed). I don't see how Marin being based on Zelda (however loosely) invalidates Malon being based on Marin. Are you willing to state that the name similarity and all the other similarities I pointed out are coincidence, nothing more? But heck, you've already won, at least until someone else notices the obvious. --HeroicJay 17:09, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

You seem to continue to forget that this is WIKIPEDIA, not some Zelda fan site. You know what we like to do? Put facts up. You know what you're trying to do? Put speculation up. Why is it speculation? Other than the fact that you don't even have Nintendo's support in this, through the means of a game or a Nintendo's employee quotes? Throughout this whole debate, you've encouraged us to assume fact because you say so. I made it a point to not make up facts, so we don't need people like you screwing it up. - A Link to the Past (talk) 20:05, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

Other than mistakenly guessing that Marin and Malon had identical Japanese names, which facts did I make up? --HeroicJay 02:21, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Marin and Malon (cont'd)

I'm adding a subheading to make page editing easier from here out.

Jay, My debate in this as been composed of three different phases:

1. First I performed a simple transliteration from English to Japanese of both Marin and Malon and suggested that they were not the same, and that the record from Nintendo of America encourages this interpretation on their official site.
2. I then proceded to find official documentation to verify the Japanese spelling. Marin (マィン) I could find an official source for, but Malon I could not. However, those who have explored the Zelda community enough (especially Japanese art sites) know pretty much from common knowledge that Malon is マロン, and as such I presumed that the record would enforce this end result.
3. I then found an auxilliary source for Malon's name (マロン), and pointed out that difference.

At no time in this argument have I "jumped down [your] throat" for not accepting this evidence. On the contrary, I believe I've rather been fair and balanced on the whole issue. I have to admit that, after I began presenting primary source documentation for the above facts, I did raise my eyebrow significantly at you to see that the name difference meant absolutely nothing to you despite it being perhaps your most significant claim. I have admitted from the beginning that I do believe that Malon and Talon were based off Marin and Tarin. However, I cannot say with any certainty that this relationship is proven. Simply put, there is no known documentation that explicitly states this. I've never said that the article should not admit state this speculation; rather, I've said that the article in question should at most state something to the fact that most fans agree that Malon was based upon Malin since it is the majority opinion (I would wager) in the community; I've only explicitly argued that the two should not be equated as the same character. I have asked, however, if it is this article's goal to present this speculative information. The Missing Link 21:22, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Maybe you missed or misunderstood my comment before: if you are correct and they have different Japanese names, then I'm not going to pretend they're quite the "same" character as I previously claimed. (And the name was never my most significant claim in my own eyes; it was just the one claim that I realized would be impossible for a certain party involved here to argue against. That's why I focused on it so much. I've got better than that, including a couple of obscure things that I haven't mentioned yet that I consider ALttP likely to ignore or misinterpret. Again.) That being the case, it seems we agree on that much of the issue. While literal proof hasn't been given (and I'm not sure that anything that's likely to come up, even a letter from NOA, would necessarily constitute "proof", especially given stories I've been told about NOA's unhelpfulness; perhaps NOJ would be more helpful, if anyone involved can speak Japanese?) I think the evidence for them being connected is pretty overwhelming (if certain parties here need me to repeat it, I can and will; just ask). I do admit that you have been much more fair than ALttP in this discussion, and I thank you for that much; much of my frustration has been aimed at ALttP, whose arguments have mostly been a bunch of non-sequiturs and the textual equivalent of plugging his fingers in his ears and saying "Nuh-uh, you're wrong, nah nah nah." But since he posted so many more times than you, I'm sorry to say that my frustration spilled over to you a bit; I'll try to keep that in check from now on. --HeroicJay 02:21, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

I guess asking for you for evidence is ignoring it, eh? Stop trying to take sides. I really doubt that Missing Link is going to jump on your side and accuse me of ignoring anything you say. But you are right, I do. Because you know what you are saying, over and over?

She might be Malon.

She might be Malon.

She might be Malon.

She might be Malon.

She might be Malon.

She might be Malon.

She might be Malon.

She might be Malon.

She might be Malon.

She might be Malon.

She might be Malon.

I assume that's annoying? Well, that's what you are doing. You have divorced yourself from factual information apparently that you're so horrified to comply with my request for you to PROVE it. I apologize if you don't like my little policy of putting GUESSWORK on Wikipedia. But I bet there's one, maybe two others that would agree with the idea of keeping speculation off of Wikipedia (actually, I was being sarcastic, as the vast majority of the good editors would delete such content from Wikipedia). You don't talk about frustration, I do - this whole argument was that you believe it should be accepted as fact, and all you can provide is similar look. Marin looks more like Zelda from LttP. - A Link to the Past (talk) 03:56, September 10, 2005 (UTC)

You seem to misunderstand what the word "evidence" entails. Proof (which I admit I cannot give from my vantage point) and evidence (which I have given you) are not the same thing. I've given evidence several times over, and since you seem to ignore every single case of it, I'll start repeating all of it, with some extra evidence I haven't given you yet, as soon as I finish this message. In a clear, easy-to-read format (if you read this and the evidence isn't there yet (in this incarnation), it means I'm in the middle of typing it up and fact-checking some of the more obscure stuff. Don't respond until it's up.) --HeroicJay 04:32, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

PS. And I stopped saying "Marin might be Malon" some time ago. My main argument (which you seem to agree with only when it suits you, though you've made it clear that you don't think it belongs on the Wiki) is that Malon is based on Marin (and I've already given proof that it's not the other way around, so don't start that.) --HeroicJay 04:36, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Bear with me, ALttP. Maybe it's just my short tenure here as a Wikipedian or perhaps it's just the controversy over on the Metroid articles, but I haven't been convinced that speculation is wholly discouraged on Wikipedia. Taken from NPOV:

• First, and most importantly, consider what it means to say that unbiased writing presents conflicting views without asserting them. Unbiased writing does not present only the most popular view; it does not assert the most popular view is correct after presenting all views; it does not assert that some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Presenting all points of view says, more or less, that p-ists believe that p, and q-ists believe that q, and that's where the debate stands at present. Ideally, presenting all points of view also gives a great deal of background on who believes that p and q and why, and which view is more popular (being careful not to associate popularity with correctness). Detailed articles might also contain the mutual evaluations of the p-ists and the q-ists, allowing each side to give its "best shot" at the other, but studiously refraining from saying who won the exchange.

To me, this encourages two differing sides--in this case, Jay and yourself--to write up something that really promotes their side, and then in a blazing display of NPOV, the two are smashed together into the same article to come up with an overall explanation of the situation. It's because of this that I said I wouldn't mind seeing some in-between edit made to explain that this difference of opinion is there. The only time an opinion should really be kept off of Wikipedia is if the position is so off-beat with public opinion that it becomes a Flat Earth Problem.

Unlike you, I'm more inclusionist than exclusionist (although there are limits to that), and I don't see the harm here in such an edit, although again, if you think I'm wrong in stating so, I'm willing to chalk this up to naïveté. The Missing Link 05:21, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm willing to comply with this, so long as ALttP has a meaningful assessment of what I'm in the process of writing up. --HeroicJay 05:52, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Evidence that Malon is based on Marin

I may add more if as I remember them.

The main evidence

This is the meat of my point. Malon and Marin have a whole lot of similarities - and it's not just in their name.

• Name: Though I'm not going to pretend that their similar (albeit not identical, even in Japanese, as I at first thought) names aren't just one of many pieces of evidence.
• Fathers: Both of them have a father whose name is identical to theirs but with a "T" instead of an "M." Both fathers have similar chubby builds (which will come into play for another point later.) Both fathers spend a lot of the games they're in sleeping (for Talon, he does in OoT and OoS.) Both are shown to have poor judgment and make stupid mistakes: Tarin beats on a beehive, Talon sleeps outside of Hyrule Castle (in OoT) and locks his house key in his house (in Minish Cap).
• Singing ability: Not only are both women known for their singing ability, but there are several sub-points to this:
  • Singing when idle: That is, when Link is not speaking to them and when not in a cutscene. This is not unique to Marin and OoT Malon, but it is shared by very few other characters, and the only ones I can think of have a direct connection to Marin or Malon (Romani is simply the Termina equivalent of young Malon; Lulu (does she sing when idle after completing the Great Bay Temple? I don't remember) sings a song which shares a title with Marin's; Nayru's singing sprite in OoA is identical to Marin's with the exception of a lock of hair (this one is a stretch, I admit, given that Nayru's official art isn't even remotely similar, but it is true.))
  • Teaching Link: Both Marin and OoT Malon (and, for what it's worth, Romani) teach their favorite songs to Link, which he can then play on his Ocarina later.
  • Song similarity: This one really belongs in the "Obscure evidence" category, but I'm trying to keep all of the musical points together. The Ballad of the Wind Fish begins with three ascending notes, twice in a row. Epona's Song begins with three descending notes, twice in a row (well, three times, but you only need to play it twice on the Ocarina.)
• Animal lovers: Marin and every single last incarnation of Malon are animal lovers. They sing to animals (Marin sings to the animals around Mabe and the populace of the Animal Village (where she apparently frequents), Malon sings to Epona in OoT), Marin yells at you if you attack chickens, Malon lives on a ranch, etc.

Supporting evidence

These arguments could not stand on their own, even with all of them together, but they support the main arguments.

• Red hair: Marin is described in the LA manual as looking exactly like Zelda, but does she? Marin has red hair in all official art. Zelda has always been portrayed as a blonde (her appearance wasn't remotely consistent before OoT, but she was a blonde in the official artoriginal Zelda and LttP (this site didn't have access to a picture of AoL's Zelda.)) Malon, of course, always has red hair. Their hairdos are also almost identical (assuming you ignore the flower in Marin's hair; compare Marin and young Malon (OoT).)
• Crush on Link: Okay, granted, how many women of significance in Zelda games close in age to Link don't seem to have a crush on him? I can think of one: his sister. Oooh. So, yeah, this isn't much of an argument. But it is true, and I'm listing similarities.
• Neckties: Tarin's necktie in his official art matches Malon's in every way but the Bowser clasp.
• Daydreamers: Marin daydreams about leaving the island; OoT Malon daydreams about a knight in shining armor sweeping her off her feet.
• Mushrooms: This really ties in with the "Mario" argument below, but Tarin/lon goes mushroom hunting in LA and OoS (and he gives you a mushroom in OoS.)

Obscure arguments

You won't like these; some of them are stretches or really nitty-gritty.

• Mario: I'm really really tempted to put this into Main Arguments, but if you aren't willing to admit the similarity between Marin and Malon, better safe than sorry. Both Tarin and Talon have similarities to a third character: Mario. Most OoT players will tell you that Talon looks like Mario, physically (chubby build, large round nose, mustache, blue overalls over a red shirt - heck, in the official art for OoS, he even has a hat with an "M" on it!) and that Ingo looks like Luigi (some have stated that Malon parallels Peach, but if you called that one speculation, I'd agree with you wholeheartedly. The Talon/Mario and Ingo/Luigi links, however, are pretty valid in terms of appearance only.) What's somewhat less well-known is that Tarin parallels Mario too: although he lacks the corresponding outfit and the Luigi-like partner, he has the same build, round nose, and mustache. What's more, he has a couple of other traits that parallel Mario: he eats mushrooms (heck, just look at his official art) and, at one point, he turns into a raccoon. (As noted above, Talon also hunts mushrooms in OoS.)
• Family dynamic: First of all, Marin/lon is pretty clearly in charge of the relationship with her father every time; she doesn't seem to respect him (notice that Marin insists on calling Tarin by his first name; meanwhile, Malon is always complaining about how stupid and lazy and useless her father is, in every game she appears.) Daughter has more plot relevance than father in LA and OoT (in the other games with Malon and Talon, it's questionable that either has much plot relevance.) Both daughters are often left alone by father (in part due to Tarin/lon's laziness).

Every single one of those arguments comes from the games or official art themselves. So either Malon is based on Marin, or there are a severe number of coincidences. (I think there were a couple of others I considered, but I can't remember what they were right this moment. If I do, I'll add them to the list above. --HeroicJay 05:52, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Counterarguments.

Facial appearance. There is a clear difference between Malon and Marin's faces.

OoT Talon is not OoS Talon, just like OoT Talon isn't Barten.

That big fact that nothing, whatsoever, has ever been confirmed on that. They haven't even implied it. You take a love of animals as a similarity; Malon has a love for horses. Perhaps Marin is Malon's basis, but this is not substantiated by any official source. - A Link to the Past (talk) 06:24, September 10, 2005 (UTC)

Counter-Counter Arguments

The facial appearance of all characters in the series has changed multiple times, and at this point I'm no longer claiming that Marin is Malon or Tarin is Talon; just that the former of each inspired the latter. The "OoT Talon isn't OoS Talon" doesn't address any of the evidence I gave as far as I can tell, nor did I ever state otherwise. So, in other words, your main counter-argument is that all of the things I mentioned are simply a series of coincidences in spite of their number. Do you disagree with this assessment? Or do you have more than what you list above? --HeroicJay 06:30, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

The facial appearances are DRASTICALLY different. For one, Malon has particularly large bangs, while Malon has rather small bangs. Malon has dark red hair, Marin has light red hair. As for Tarin, he is only slightly similar to Talon.

Well, can't we assume that if Nintendo actually provided a statement regarding their connection, that it would be applicable? And how would Marin and Malon be connected in any way? For one, this is a dream that Link and the Wind Fish are experiencing, so Marin would have been modelled after Zelda. Miyamoto did not create Marin; he wasn't even in charge of Link's Awakening. The most I'd ever give you is that they reused the concept. This concept of Mario/Luigi being kind of characters spans Link's Awakening, Oracle of Seasons, Majora's Mask and Ocarina of Time. In all cases, they were different characters. It's a matter of Malon and Marin sharing the same concept, not one being based on the other. - A Link to the Past (talk) 07:44, September 10, 2005 (UTC)

Wow. Do you have any idea what viewpoint I'm supporting? Malon was based on Marin in the real world, like, not in Hyrule or Koholint, where I was admitting that they were distinct characters from the first post (when I said they were the "same" character, I meant in the same sense as any other recurring Zelda character bar Ganondorf.) --HeroicJay 07:55, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

They don't bare a resemblance, and if anything, they're both based on the concept of Mario/Luigi. - A Link to the Past (talk) 08:21, September 10, 2005 (UTC)

I'm having trouble following you. Are you saying that every single piece of evidence I listed above is wrong? How? Are you saying - and please tell me that the answer to this one is "no" - that Marin is based on Luigi?!?! --HeroicJay 08:27, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

...What the Hell? Are you even paying attention? I never said Marin was based on Luigi. - A Link to the Past (talk) 18:27, September 10, 2005 (UTC)

Then where did the comment that "they're both based on the concept of Mario/Luigi" come from? Tarin/lon=Mario and Ingo=Luigi I can see, but the main focus of this argument is on Marin/lon. --HeroicJay 19:20, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

In the sense that their father is Mario, perhaps? - A Link to the Past (talk) 19:25, September 10, 2005 (UTC)

If there's a such thing as a mental hernia, you guys are going to give it to me. ALttP, you've mentioned that there is no official record about X being based on Y. HJ, you've said that there is a lot of similarity beteween X and Y. Why don't we just forgo the argument that X is derived from Y and just simply state that X is similar to Y and be done with the whole thing? The Missing Link 21:52, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

As I said, it's a matter of them coming from the same mold, not one coming from the other. - A Link to the Past ;;;(talk) 22:02, September 10, 2005 (UTC)

I'd be willing to that as a compromise, I suppose, but ALttP's arguments in this last section are giving me a mental hernia (two characters are related to two characters who are related to Mario, but also have an awful lot of similarities to each other even if you don't count the Mario connection. But the only connection between them is the Mario thing, and he still seems to believe that everything not related to Mario is a vast coincidence. Yeah, my head definitely hurts.) --HeroicJay 08:16, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Are you wearing glasses, or as usual, are you just ignoring anyone who disagrees?

Link - Each list is based on the same MOLD, not the original character.

Zelda - Read above.

Deku Tree - Read above.

King Zora - Read above.

If you didn't get the hint - no single character is based on one specific character, or any multiple amount of characters. Why should Malon? It's the Mario family mold, not some "Well, we like Marin, so let's recreate her as a different character." - A Link to the Past (talk) 08:40, September 11, 2005 (UTC)

It seems as if we're all talking the same point just in very different terminology. If there are no complaints then, I'll go ahead and make that change? The Missing Link 20:26, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

...And what change would that be? - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:54, September 11, 2005 (UTC)

I'll choose not to respond to the blatent irony and say that I think The Missing Link hit this one square on. --HeroicJay 22:25, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

As you wish, troll. I assume that since it's after my comment, it's in response, so... well, I guess there should not be any questioning of WHICH change is going to made. You have not proven that one is based off of the other. I supplied a realistic theory that cancels out the idea that this should be expressed in the article. Either way, what is "blatantly ironic" about me asking HOW it's going to be made. Look up irony in the dictionary, kid. - A Link to the Past (talk) 23:00, September 11, 2005 (UTC)

The irony was that you said that I ignored everyone who disagreed. I think we're either operating under different definitions of "based on," as The Missing Link said, because your arguments, which I have read, thankyouverymuch, don't make any sense to me; it's not that I disagree, and it's not that I'm ignoring them. It's that I truly do not understand! What do you think would constitute one character being "based on" another? For them to be based on the same "mold," whatever you mean by that (if you think that Marin and Malon are both based on Mario characters and that's the reason they're so similar, which is kinda what one of your earlier arguments implied, I will disagree no matter what because that argument is silly. If that's not what you meant, and I suspect that it's not, then please clarify), that mold would have to exist somewhere. (I don't necessarily mean somewhere tangible.) What mold? Couldn't the "mold" just be the original version of the character? (I suppose that I should let the fact that the Deku Tree in WW is accepted by just about everyone I've ever spoken to as literally the same character as OoT's Deku Sprout slide... ah, dangit.) --HeroicJay 06:25, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

An example of ignoring me. I already DID clarify. Should I clarify "Mario family mold" more? - A Link to the Past (talk) 07:05, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

I didn't ignore you. You must be ignoring the thing where I said I didn't understand what you were talking about. (More irony!) Please, clarify. Because I have not the slightest idea how your "mold" theory differs from, or invalidates, my assertion that Malon is based on Marin. And please don't leave out the part where you define what you mean by "mold." --HeroicJay 08:59, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

It's the epitome of a stock character. Stock characters are those typical characters that could appear in any story. They are those characters that you can take off the shelf and instantly use in any situation whatsoever. They're very generic and two-dimensional, and so they can be embellished upon and added to in order to create the third dimension of their personality. Malon could easily be considered a stock character: a plucky little girl who loves to sing to her hearts content, very fond of animals. Aside from the fact that she works at a ranch and family (which could be attributed to context rather than significance), there's nothing very special about Malon's character. Marin is a different case (since the focal point of the game is around her), but again, her derivative could conceivably come from the same stock character type. That's the "mold" strategem. The Missing Link 12:30, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

No, I don't think so. First sentence: "A stock character is a fictional character that relies heavily on cultural types or stereotypes for its personality, manner of speech, and other characteristics." Just because two characters are similar, that doesn't mean it's due to a stereotype - in fact, Marin/lon fits no major stereotype that I can think of. Stock characters exist in totally different contexts, in films, movies, etc. that aren't even related to each other, and are defined by their stereotypes. Small though her development may be, unless you've played lots and lots of video games and can safely say that "singing redhead who loves animals and has a Mario-like father" is a stereotype outside of The Legend of Zelda, then I don't really think Marin/lon is a "stock character." --HeroicJay 20:11, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

You're thinking WAY too literally about it. Stock characters are, in their simplest form, basically character prototypes that can be easily reused. Or, as another website would say, "stock characters are types of character which have become conventional in particular genres through repeated use." In the realm of CRPGs, the singing little girl who loves nature... quite the norm. The Missing Link 23:23, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I suppose I'll grant you that much despite not being able to think of many other examples off the top of my head, but Marin and Malon share similarities beyond the stock character stereotypes. --HeroicJay 04:38, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

The change that states that Malon shares many similarities with Marin, however no formal association between the two has ever been officially declared. The Missing Link 07:07, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Category confusion

• Rv category changes-Pagra
• Do not revert. Category:Legend of Zelda characters is a sub-category of Category:Lists of fictional characters. The Deku tree is a plant character, the category is applicable) -tyciol
• You recently re-reverted your category changes at The Legend of Zelda series characters, saying that Category:Legend of Zelda characters is a sub-category of Category:Lists of fictional characters, but this is not the case, nor should it be. For example, Princess Zelda falls in the category of Legend of Zelda characters, but is not a list of fictional characters.
• You also said that the LOZ series characters article should be placed under the Plant characters category. I don't believe it is typical to place an article in a category when only a small portion of that article deals with the category. We cannot place pieces of an article in a category; categories are for whole articles. Is "The Legend of Zelda series characters" a plant character? Also, even if you do place the article in that category, alphabetizing it under D is very counter-intuitive. Take a look at Category:Plant characters and you will see just how strange this is. Pagrashtak 01:55, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for re-reverting, I should have started a discussion here the second there was dispute. I agree that the Category:Plant characters seems strange when applying it to a page where only a couple characters are plant characters. The Zelda articles listed there are also confusing, as you mentioned. I am at a loss though, as I would like to have them included in this list. The only way I can think of doing this is to move the Deku tree and other plant races to separate articles, rather than having them redirect here. I couldn't find all the redirects that way though. I wish there was a better way of categorization... Tyciol 02:08, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

wing fish egg

in the gameboy game wing fish egg isn't the girl in it called Malon and the her dads talion i think thats how you spell it

No, you are thinking of OoT. In Link's Awakening (the game you are aluding to), they are named Marin and Tarin. - A Link to the Past (talk) 02:49, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

"The Theories of the Origins of Majora's Mask"

Surely this is just speculation and Original Reseach, with little, if any, content appropriate for Wikipædia? I propose that we delete the entire section. Setokaiba^✌_≝ 21:24, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Should the uncle stay?

He's a character that only appeared once, and if people really wanna look at him, they can always open the article on Link and read the section on his confirmed family, right? --200.44.7.245 22:15, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that bit about Twilight Princess's Link being explicitly an orphan and someone mentioning his parents is true at all. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.122.208.51 (talk) 17:10, 7 March 2007 (UTC).

Right. Could someone prove that?

15:59, 19 March 2007 (UTC)~

Is Navi supposed to be here?

The article starts off by saying that it only covers characters that have appeared in more than one game, and Navi has clearly only appeared in one game. Plus, all the info on Navi is in her subtitle in the Ocarina of Time Characters article, including the info appearing here. Why is Navi in this article, at all? ---200.44.7.21 05:55, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Rauru and the Owl

Under the Owl's section it states that some fans have come to the conclusion that the Owl and Rauru may be the same. Well, after rewatching Ocarina of Time, is it not true that Rauru reveals himself to Link after Link draws up the Master Sword and explains to Link that he has been watching Link as the Owl?---CaptainJade9

I don't remember Rauru ever mentioning Owl or Kaepora Gaebora. I think he is someone else. Remember from the credits how all the sages go to Death Mountain to watch the sun rise? Rauru and Zelda aren't there. Jaxad0127 09:13, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

The Owl

Many people have criticized the owl for many reasons.

1. He shows up to give often unwanted advice, encouragement, tips, or instructions.

2. His appearance causes cutscenes that are always unskipable and sometimes long.

3. Because of the length of the cutscenes, many people have often accidentaly selected "yes" when asked if they want to hear the owl's message again.

Because of all this, many gamers have disliked the owl. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.188.172.165 (talk • contribs)

Source? The bulk of his text can usually be skipped. And it's not hard to select the correct option. Jaxad0127 14:42, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I'd suggest browsing the Nintendo forums. Many fans despise Kaepora Gaebora for these same reasons. One person was talking about him being in Super Smash Bros., claiming his special would be talking people to death. The quotes are in the forums, you just have to look. Commander Regulus 00:55, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

http://forums.nintendo.com/nintendo/board/message?board.id=zelda&message.id=348082&query.id=14163#M348082

http://forums.nintendo.com/nintendo/board/message?board.id=zelda&message.id=1043685&query.id=14163#M1043685

http://forums.nintendo.com/nintendo/board/message?board.id=zelda&message.id=397250&query.id=14272#M397250

I think the Nintendo online forums would be the best place to go to find genuine Zelda fan opinion, which this assertion is based on. I don't see why it can't stay. Commander Regulus 01:06, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Jabu-Jabu

Although Jabun's name in Japanese is originally Jabuu, it's only speculation that he actually -is- Jabu-Jabu. The in-game figurine doesn't say he is, nor does the King of Red Lions, that part is inaccurate and ought to be removed by someone who isn't at work right now. I seriously doubt they're the same anyway, since one doesn't talk.

Great Deku Tree

The OoT Great Deku Tree and the WW Deku Tree (his official name according to the figurines) are clearly not the same character, but are talked about as if they are in this article. That should be changed. I am not doing it myself because I cannot figure out how to do it without causing damage to the two of them, but someone else could figure out how.128.211.177.240 19:57, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I've took out the WW Deku mentions, becaues there is a WW character page, therefore the WW Deku shouldn't exist on this page, if there is a OOT page, then I'll delete the Deku section altogether, also, please fix the see also link, just below the Deku section, I don't know how to do it so it links directly to the Deku section on the WW character page. Thanks. Ashnard _talk 21:56, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

The Bat

I was looking for some information on the bat that appears in LttP (It 'Halves' your MM ;P) and LA (increases bombs, arrows, and powder). He might appear in other games, I don't remember. Any chance that there is enough detail that he should be added to this article? - Halfrush

link's parents in TP

I don't remember them being mentioned. Could someone clear that up for me. I can't find anywhere else. On other sites, anything... Please? I really apreciate it...23:49, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Majora section

I the Majora section there is a statment that says: "Note that in Twilight princess, Midna is a descendant of a tribe that control dark magic and the eye on the Midna's mask has the same shape as the one on Majora's mask." This is simply speculation and there is no proof. Could someone please change it so noone gets confused or the wrong information. Thank you. 23:24, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Just been done, thanks for the heads up, although you could have just done it yourself. Thanks. Ashnard _talk 09:39, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

hm, no I couldn't. I'm creativly deprived. 15:16, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any change... 72.134.69.228 15:18, 4 April 2007 (UTC) ok. nevermind72.134.69.228 15:20, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

It's definitley changed - look at he history if you don't believe me. Ashnard _talk 19:54, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

No, I do. I had just looked after I read and noone had changed it. Then I reloaded it, and it was changed. Thecolourrose

Wow you have a User name now, well done. Ashnard _talk 09:10, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I know. Yay!! Thecolourrose

cucco

I don't think they're a charecter...And Rusl doesn't own the golden cucoo. He borrowed it to help Link.Thecolourrose

This is the best article to place them though - they were originally at "Enemies". Gurko 21:52, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, that's true. I don't know where else they would go. But that thing about Rusl owning one still needs to go. Thecolourrose

cucco part is completely gone, I didnt do it. Oo 67.189.192.245 00:30, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

magic armor

does anyone think that the magic armor in wind waker looks like din's fire/naryu's love/faroe's wind daimonds?

really, look: http://www.zeldaelements.net/games_main/9/items/magicarmor.jpg

it is a black ball in a diamond, does anyone think that is is like naryu's love? Spidermn 01:04, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Edit wars?

Oh no, I can see a potential edit war arising here over the three goddessess. Sort your arguments for and against here — connstant reverting and adding is counterproductive. Thank you. Ashnard _talk 05:55, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Move to Recurring characters in The Legend of Zelda series

Does anyone else think this page should be moved to Recurring characters in The Legend of Zelda series? It fits the contents of this page much better, but there's already a page there, so someone needs to make a request for the move. I'd do it now, but I'm at school, and requesting a move takes a while to sort everything out, so if no one's done it by the time I get home I'll do it myself. Takuthehedgehog 17:36, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree, we just need to make sure there are no character entries about a character from just one game. I can't see any reason why not so go for it.I'm going to school now so I'm a bit time tied.Ashnard _Talk 06:44, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Done, I ended up not being able to do it yesterday, but I got it done today in tech class. Takuthehedgehog 16:58, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Characters in The Legend of Zelda series → Recurring characters in The Legend of Zelda series — The page is currently titled Characters in The Legend of Zelda series, but the page only covers characters that appear in multiple Zelda games, with characters from only one game in the series appearing on their apropriate lists, such as Characters in The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. The current title is misleading, thus the reason for the request. Takuthehedgehog 16:57, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Add  * '''Support'''  or  * '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this is not a vote; comments must include reasons to carry weight.

• Support: This will disambiguate the meaning of the article and save people from incorrectly adding entries for game-specific characters as some do not read the lead paragraph. The current title is misleading and does not give an appropriate description of the article. Ashnard _Talk 22:17, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
• Support to avoid being misleading. Consider renaming to List of recurring characters in The Legend of Zelda series to conform with the other lists in Category:Lists of video game characters. –Pomte 07:11, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

• Actually all of the other Zelda character pages don't have "List of" in the title, so I didn't put list in the requested title. Takuthehedgehog 16:42, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

This article has been renamed from Characters in The Legend of Zelda series to List of recurring characters in The Legend of Zelda series as the result of a move request. Adding "list of" is warranted when the page is avowedly a list, as this is; contact me if you need help moving the others to titles starting with "list of". --Stemonitis 07:22, 7 May 2007 (UTC)