Talk:List of Philadelphia neighborhoods

Questions

I was just wondering, how do you pronounce "Passyunk"? - 68.199.100.109 , 20:10, 7 August 2005

It's "PASS-shunk". Thunderbunny 06:33, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Rework

I re-worked the list a bit, adding in some places, moving others and renaming some. The information that i used is based on these three links [1], [2], [3], and an ADC map of the city. I didn't include everything listed, and combined other places together, if you see anything out of wack feel free to make the changes as needed. --Boothy443 | comhrÚ 07:22, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

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Gayborhood

I'd like to add the name "Gayborhood" under the name Washington Square West. It's the same place, and everyone in Philly calls it that. What do you think? Eagleapex 02:03, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

No. --CComMack (t•c) 04:18, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Looky here: Official "gayborhood" street signs mentioned in the citypaper blog. I'm looking for another source. But I think Gayborhood should be included. Eagleapex 23:34, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I think it should be included. Someone added it a while back as a redlink (which could have invited entry creation), but it was soon reverted as "vandalism". (History page informs me that it was added on 2007-02-25.) In Philadelphia the identity of a neighborhood is not officially codified, but rather is a purely social construction, and the gayborhood definitely is just as "real" in that respect as any other neighborhood is. Hell, in that respect it's "more real" than, for example, Ivy Hill, which is often not even differentiated from the rest of Cedarbrook. (One thing about the list in Finkel 1995:156-170 is that its earliest known date for a written reference to a name is clearly often much later than when the name probably must have come about. That's a digression, but I guess that my point is that there is no holy written scripture that decides whether a Philadelphia neighborhood entity is "real" or "official" or quote-mark-whatever, but on the social-identity scale, they crop up and fade away over the course of decades, and the gayborhood is definitely currently a "real" neighborhood name.) — Lumbercutter 01:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Re an "Official" List of the Neighborhoods (There isn't one)

The cities official list of neighborhoods can be found here:

http://www.phila.gov/phils/Docs/otherinfo/pname2.htm evrik 20:19, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Market East is not a neighborhood. evrik 20:19, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

That is not a list of official names of official neighborhoods, their is no such list that exists, that is a of neighborhood names, of which more then half are no longer used, that:

"are taken from Philadelphia Almanac and Citizens' Manual which was edited by Kenneth Finkel and published by the Library Company of Philadelphia in 1994 and 1995. It has been augmented by the staff of the Philadelphia City Archives." "The 1994 edition of this book contained 389 different names of various neighborhoods throughout the city of Philadelphia from the earliest days of Swedish occupation to the present. The following year, an additional six names were added to bring the list to 395. This list is being augmented yet again by the Philadelphia City Archives with names of neighborhoods, redevelopment areas, and other place names which have been assigned officially or unofficially to certain areas of the city. It is interesting to see the dynamics of neighborhood naming in over 350 years of occupation of the 129 square miles which comprise Philadelphia by the Native Americans, the Swedes, the English and German pioneers, and later and current Philadelphians."

--Boothy443 | trácht ar 20:34, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Show me a city document that says that Market East is a dsignated neighborhood. evrik 20:41, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

As stated above their is no official list of neighborhoods in the city of Philadelphia, you also must have not read the statement above on how this list of neighbhoods was complied. Also your edits only go on to show that you have an exteremly narrow or little knowledge of Philadelphia, becides the fact you seem to know how to link articles. Their have been other editors that have added to the neighboirhood articles that i woured with to put this list together who have not question the vaibility of this list. A source that marks that area is [4], it is an area makred as dark red, that area is commonly know in the City of Philadelphia as market east, which it name derives from the tran station, fyi the area in pink is known as Penn Center, otherwise the areras are consider part of Center City. Know ould i expect evey perosn from Philly to know that neighborhoos or their names, no, in the say way that i was not totlay familair with all of the neighborhoods on the list. So i asking you to stop, if not i will just keep on reverting every misleading edit ythat you make for as long as you make them. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 21:00, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

I found another 'official' list of neighborhoods from the PCPC.evrik 16:55, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

(http://www.philaplanning.org/data/datamaps.html)

Once again your misinformation just amazes me. Their is nothing on the webs site the designinates any official meighbourhood what so ever.A census track is not a neighbouhood, it is not uncommon to have several tracks in a neighbourhood. An empowerment zone [5] is not an neighborhood,

The Empowerment Zone (EZ) is a federally funded community development and economic revitalization initiative. The EZ designation provides localities with a federal grant and a set of tax and financing incentives to improve public safety, advance human development, create a welcoming environment and invigorate commerce

They are based upon census tracks, and like sensus tracks it is not uncommon for an Empowerment Zone to encompass several neighborhoods, either in whole or in part. Same goes for Enterprise Zones, Wards, Council districts, zip codes, no of which are specific neighborhoods nor do they desiginate official neighborhoods. The only information that is used id the planning distrctis, which are broad areas, which are used in the list to break the areras down. SOi'll stick with my sources, while you try to pull more ut of the air. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 22:26, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Request for Mediation

I requested mediation here: http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal#Philadelphia_County_and_other_Philadelphia_Pages

The problem with this list: Original Research

Okay, I'm going to kick over the anthill and say it: this list relies too heavily on original research. Yes, neighborhoods in Philadelphia are social constructs and not official or legal entities, but in general we should be trying to hold to only listing neighborhoods which have been mentioned elsewhere in reliable sources. Now, the good news is that it shouldn't be too hard to come up with such sources; Philadelphia is a much-written-about city, and there should be at least passing mentions in various printed materials, books, newspapers, maps, etc. But we shouldn't let this list bloat out with unsourced material. It might mean having to find sources for things "everybody knows", but we'll have a better article for it. —CComMack (t–c) 20:26, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

This is a good criticism. I just despair of how big a project it is to introduce refs for every neighborhood name on the page. Of course, with enough years, we will eventually do it. I think that we should not start deleting anything that's already here just for lack of a ref cite; that would just kill the whole page! Probably best to just stet any reasonable name pending a citation. (As for reference style, there are a handful of main refs (for example, Finkel 1995:156-170 and the phila.gov page adapted and expanded from that) that would need to be cited many times, so I think that Harvard referencing would be the appropriate method—using <ref> tags and <references/> would be horrendously ungainly for this particular application.)

I definitely agree that referencing is the right goal—Maybe I'll go through soon and put "(Finkel 1995:NNN)" for each one that is based on Finkel 1995. — Lumbercutter 02:15, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I should clarify what I said about "years". It could of course be done in mere days, but only if someone makes a project of poring over the various sources and collating each name with each source. What I meant was that it will take longer if no one tackles that project all at once. But maybe I or someone else will in fact do that sometime. Also, it would be awesome if you could click a link by each name and have the most-commonly-agreed boundaries of that neighborhood highlighted on a map of the city. These are some brainstorms for possible development. Now I must get back to work! — Lumbercutter 12:48, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I should, in turn clarify my statement: I certainly didn't mean that we should immediately purge all of the uncited entries in the list, but we should make a real push towards citing most of them. Having the sources is a good first step; there's a way to do <ref> tag references that shouldn't be too ungainly (when I have a few hours free, I'll demonstrate; it's really not bad. I've done it before on, e.g., Cincinnati Union Terminal). —CComMack (t–c) 19:53, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Map request

Maps showing the details of individual neighborhoods inside the larger sectors would be very helpful. -- Beland 22:20, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

• However being that their are no official boundaries given to neighborhoods, and some can very widely, any map has the poetential to be extremely subjective. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 23:20, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

fishtown / kensington

Are Fishtown and "Greater Kensington" in the Northeast or North Philly section? Fishtown is listed in both. Greater Kensington is listed in the northeast, but Olde K. and West K. are listed in North Philly. Are they not also part of "Greater Kensington"? My hunch is that they should all be moved to the North Philly section. -- Austin Murphy (talk) 18:50, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

====

My feeling is that anything east of Front St. and south of Pennypack is in the lower northeast and everything north of Pennypack is the far northeast. The PCPC separates it from North Philly along Front/Frankford/Tacony Creek and lists Fishtown, Bridesburg and Port Richmond as an area distinct from North Philly and the Northeast. The way I look at it is that the area east of Front St./Kensington Ave. is on a different grid with a different numbering system and has streets with the "east" designation. I wouldn't call it North Philly. 68.81.71.129 (talk) 15:48, 8 May 2008 (UTC) JR

Finkel / Library Co. list

This list that is cited everywhere is really the pits. It seems to be highly inaccurate. It gets really specific on dates and borders, but the ones I feel comfortable judging seem way off. Like Grays Ferry having been invented in the 1970's when the actual ferry is from the revolution era. I suggest being very careful with this list and not taking it as anything close to authoritative. -- Austin Murphy (talk) 20:48, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

You are completely right in that a lot of those dates strike one as being much later than the name in question seems likely to have been around. I have pondered that very issue myself. Each date is simply the earliest written mention that Finkel et al could find in the written sources that they consulted. That leaves at least two possibilities: (1) that their sample of source material was smaller than one could ideally hope for (and if so, I'm sure that they themselves wished that they could sample more sources); and (2) that there were many decades of a name being used orally before anyone needed to write it down in a document that would still survive today and that Finkel et al might have seen. One example off the top of my head is Ivy Hill. The date given at http://www.phila.gov/phils/Docs/otherinfo/pname1.htm is 1980. But Ivy Hill Cemetery has been there since 1867. Now, I would bet money on 3 things: (1) That the name of the cemetery was thought up by the developers for its pleasant, pastoral final-resting-place connotations; (2) that the neighborhood got its name from the cemetery, not vice versa (the area was rural when the cemetery was established); and (3) that local people have been calling the neighborhood "Ivy Hill" since many decades before 1980. I could be wrong, but those things seem likely. I don't think that makes Finkel et al grossly wrong about all their names and boundaries; it's just that you have to take their list for what it is, which is one team's compilation based on a certain sampling of source material. And you have to take the dates for what they are—only the earliest written attestation that anyone has documented so far. It's only one version of things, but I have to say that I'm glad they bothered to make the list, because it's more than we'd have otherwise. Anyway, here's a toast to digging up earlier attestations, and citing them here at Wikipedia's list! — ¾-10 03:44, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

West Philly

Resolved

- Mdsummermsw (talk) 16:03, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

The picture of "Rowhouses in Cedar Park" is mislabeled. The houses are semi-detached and thus "twins" not "rowhouses". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.81.71.129 (talk) 15:24, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Naming conventions

Since the article for the city is located at Philadelphia, and not Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, is there any reason as to why the neighborhood articles follow a Neighborhood, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania format instead of a Neighborhood, Philadelphia format? Eco84 | Talk 18:09, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

It is true that there are various defensible conventions that could be followed. However, it is best to keep the current consensus, for reasons that I will mention. The basic recurring question is: How much context should you specify in your naming conventions? The answer to that question depends on your audience. Remember that the English Wikipedia's audience is thoroughly global, and Wikipedia style tends (very rightly) to root out provincialistic thought limitations—even mild provincialism that seemed invisible or harmless in the pre-global era. At the extreme silly end, we can all agree that it is perfectly logical, but also unnecessary, to name the article on Philadelphia as "Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA, North America, Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy". Even "Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA" is generally agreed to be logical, but unnecessary. The debate heats up when you compare "Philadelphia" with "Philadelphia, Pennsylvania". There have been several thoroughly thought-out discussions of this topic at Talk:Philadelphia. As of this writing, they are at Talk:Philadelphia#Page Name, Talk:Philadelphia/Redirect talk page, and Talk:Philadelphia/Archive 3#Requested move. See also Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (settlements)/U.S. convention change (August 2006) and similar pages. Leaving that argument aside as perennially unsettlable (although, for the record, I vote for "Philadelphia, Pennsylvania", with "Philadelphia" redirecting to that, and other uses being listed at "Philadelphia (disambiguation)"), the question of naming the neighborhood articles is easier to have stronger consensus on. There are so many neighborhood articles about neighborhoods all over the USA that follow the convention "Neighborhood, City, State" that it would be a very bad idea to start changing some of them on the idea that "we can make an exception to the convention for some but not others." Hope this answer and the linked discussion pages show how much thought can go into answering such a short question. PhilaRegion1062 (talk) 00:15, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. It is just plain silly to reference the state. "Our" Philadelphia is the original and most significant by far and needs no further qualification. To pretend that this is "provincialistic" is intellectually dishonest. As such, I agree that the ", Pennsylvania" ought to be dropped from the page names of the neighborhoods. --Austin Murphy (talk) 05:37, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Philadelphia, PA is not "the original Philadelphia" by any stretch of the imagination. In any event, I don't really see the name as being a structural necessity. "Philadelphia, Pennsylvania" is, IMO, good because there is more than one Philadelphia. "Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, United State of America" is not good because there is only one Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. I don't particularly care, but I don't see a need to make the names more specific than "Cedarbrook" or "Northern Liberties" or whatever unless/until we have more than one article in competition for the name. Right now Northern Liberties redirects to Northern Liberties, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. I'd be fine with the reverse being true. On the other hand, Chinatown is one of dozens of places using that name. Chinatown directs to a List of Chinatowns, with Chinatown, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania being one option. That said, Chinatown, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania is redundant. Chinatown, Philadelphia would do the job (right now it's a redirect). Long story short, I'd keep the names as short as possible without leading to ambiguous situations. Longer than needed names should redirect or be ignored. - SummerPhD (talk) 16:40, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Border between South Phila and Center City

Hi, the border between South Philadelphia and Center City is Lombard Street. It is an urban legend, easily perpetrated, that South Street is this border but it is not. Consult historical records and you'll see that Lombard is the border. If you want a source you can easily see yourself, see the Queen Village and Society Hill informational sign in person at Headhouse Square at the corner of 2nd and Lombard in Phila, across from the TD Bank.

Thanks

--Ajsphila (talk) 01:48, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I have restored most of the South Street designations, all with citations to [[WP:RS|reliable sources]. It is uncontestable that "The Center City Planning Analysis Section extends from South Street...", as cited, because it is specifically cited to the Philadelphia City Planning Commission, authors of the Center City Planning Analysis. For most of the others, I have cited convenient sources (neighborhood associations and town watches), primarily because the CPC tends to show maps, often without street names. While parks and such on these maps make the boundry streets' identities clear, citing them would be a bit unconventional. If needed, I will pull text cites from the CPC. (Contrary to the CPC, two neighborhood associations designate their neighborhoods as beginning with Lombard. I have used Lombard in these cases.) - SummerPhD (talk) 14:07, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

File:PhilaCnty1854.png

I think that it would be useful to put the map of Philadelphia County municipalities prior to consolidation for historical reference. Seeing that there is no space to put this in the article, I'll leave a link to it here until expansion of this article warrants its inclusion: File:PhilaCnty1854.png. --Apollo1758 (talk) 17:21, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Major revision needed: Planning Analysis Sections replaced by Planning Districts

Right now, this article relies on the old "Planning Analysis Sections" used by the Philadelphia City Planning Commission during the Street administration to sort out where the various neighborhoods are located.

The current Planning Commission has discarded those in favor of new "Planning Districts." These were used for the new "Philadelphia2035" comprehensive city plan adopted in 2010 and the district plans being drawn up under it.

There are some major changes with the new districts. The Central planning district, for instance, encompasses not only Center City but also the adjacent North and South Philadelphia neighborhoods that have undergone significant redevelopment ("gentrification") since the 1990s; that district's boundaries now stretch from roughly Girard Avenue on the north to Washington Avenue on the south, and the Center City District also uses these boundaries when publishing data on "greater Center City". The River Wards have been broken out into their own section, and Northeast, North, Northwest, West, Southwest and South Philadelphia have all been divided into sections.

Given how recent these changes are, I realize some may disagree with my call here, but I think the new districts do provide some more clarity of definition than the old ones did, especially when it comes to the River Wards, which had been subsumed into "Kensington" in the Planning Analysis Sections. What say you all? Marketstel (talk) 14:42, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

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