Talk:List of Milanese consorts

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Requested move 13 July 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus as to whether a move is desirable. Within the discussion, multiple participants suggested the alternate title List of consorts of Milanese rulers; while this title received more support than the original proposal, there was also a notable body of commenters who preferred the existing title as the most WP:CONCISE option, with the ultimate result that no consensus emerged. (closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 15:15, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

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List of Milanese consorts → List of ladies and duchesses consort of Milan – Recent discussions led to the conclusion that "consort" just means "spouse" and that a title like List of Milanese consorts implies "People married to Milan" and that a category like Consorts of Bosnia implies "People married to Bosnia". To make clear we are talking about women married to the Lords and Dukes of Milan, not women who were somehow "married to the country", a renaming is in order. Follow-up to Category:Bosnian queens being Renamed to Category:Queens consort of Bosnia. See also Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Royalty and Nobility/Archive 10#"royal" consorts, the "Rulers of Milan" CfR (still ongoing!), and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Bosnia and Herzegovina#Merger proposal lists of dukes of Bosnia for related discussions. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 08:14, 13 July 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. {{replyto|SilverLocust}} (talk) 09:02, 20 July 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 17:07, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support, the current name is quite unnatural and the proposed name accurately describes what it is about.

Marcocapelle (talk) 16:27, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Oppose - the current name is sufficiently meets the WP:CRITERIA. The proposed name is far from WP:CONCISE. I wouldn't be opposed to List of consorts of Milanese rulers (which lines up with List of rulers of Milan, but that is also quite long and I think it's best to leave this as is. estar8806 (talk) ★ 19:54, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

The proposed title is rather wordy. I used to hate the "consorts" titles for the same reason (they weren't married to Milan!), but we sometimes use the names of places as stand-ins for full titles and thus for the people who bear them. See Lancaster's chevauchée of 1346 and the way Shakespeare uses "Lennox" and "Ross" in Macbeth. "List of ladies and duchesses of Milan" without the "consort" would do as well. I have no strong opinion because I am not sure if the average reader is confused by the current title or finds it odd. If s/he is, then we should move it. Srnec (talk) 16:28, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

The reason to add "consort" is the same reason why we

• renamed Category:Bosnian queens to Category:Queens consort of Bosnia;
• renamed Category:Japanese empresses to Category:Japanese empresses consort;
• created Category:Duchesses regnant;
• created Category:Countesses regnant;
• etc.

Namely, to prevent confusion between women who reigned in their own right over country X, and women who merely were the consort of whomever reigned over country X. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:43, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Comment The proposed name is rather too long. I also think List of consorts of Milanese rulers would be a better alternative, and more consistent with List of rulers of Milan in terms of wording structure. Keivan.f^Talk 07:01, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Relisting for a clearer consensus about the suggested alternative title (as there does not appear to be consensus for the proposed title). {{replyto|SilverLocust}} (talk) 09:02, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

• Suggestion. I agree that the suggested title can be a bit long. I would propose 'List of royal consorts of Milan' instead. Dawkin Verbier (talk) 09:19, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

  The problem with that is that they weren't "royal". That word is for people married to a king or queen. Dukes and lords are much lower in the nobility hierarchy. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:34, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

  Noble consorts? Dawkin Verbier (talk) 02:47, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:CONCISE. There is no risk of ambiguity. There are gazillions of "List of x consorts" pages Lists of women#Politics. There is nothing special about Milan. Proposal is just making the title longer and more awkward needlessly. Walrasiad (talk) 15:56, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

  At Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Royalty and Nobility/Archive 10#"royal" consorts there is a consensus that just saying "consorts" is incorrect. Just because there are gazillions of "List of x consorts" pages doesn't mean it's correct. I also thought that, but I was wrong. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:36, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Hm. That discussion is mostly just you talking to yourself, and causing confusion to yourself.

I disagree. It is sufficiently correct. Doesn't seem like a problem at all. Walrasiad (talk) 15:48, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Haha well I was confused at first, but everyone else eventually convinced me that queens consort of Bosnia was the correct phrasing. That is the consensus we established there, and also at the CfR. List of Milanese consorts consorts was one of the main examples we discussed that should be renamed next. This RM is simply meant to be implementing that consensus. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:13, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Two people chimed in during your massive cascade of posts to clarify a couple of minor points in which you were confusing yourself. I wouldn't call that a "consensus", but just an impenetrable discussion with yourself nobody else could follow, and stayed away. Definitely should not be implemented. It is fine the way it is here, and all other pages with this title structure. There are "list of rulers" and there are "list of consorts". Readers understand it perfectly well, leave it alone. Walrasiad (talk) 00:47, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

You do not have to belittle me just because you disagree with my proposal. I know when I was confused and when I was not, thank you very much. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:59, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.