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Talk:List of Israeli inventions and discoveries

Latest comment: 2 days ago by Galdrack in topic 2-adic cycles of elliptic curves / ZK-STARK's
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Merge proposal

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Latest comment: 13 years ago6 comments3 people in discussion

I believe it would be a mistake to merge this article to some other article. As you can see the navigation infobox at the bottom of the article - the English Wikipedia has many more articles which contain detailed lists of inventions and discoveries in many other various countries world wide in addition to having articles that contain only a more general overview of the fields of science and technology in those countries. Why should we make an exception in this case? TheCuriousGnome (talk) 19:55, 19 May 2011 (UTC)Reply

Since no one decided to participate in this merge proposal discussion and/or to answer my above question, if no one would participate in this discussion by tomorrow, I would go ahead and remove the merge template from the article tomorrow. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 00:49, 22 May 2011 (UTC)Reply
  • MergeKeep -- The articles go over the same material. A few things are listed here, that aren't covered in detail on the other page. I suggest we take the things that aren't mentioned on the other page, put them in, expand on them, and be done with it.

Homo Logica (talk) 19:03, 22 May 2011 (UTC)Reply

The article Science and technology in Israel is not supposed to present a long list of inventions and discoveries which originated in Israel. Please check other similar articles on the English Wikipedia and I am sure you would see for yourself that the articles which cover the fields of science and technology in various countries do not contain such lists (see the following articles - Science and technology in Japan, Science and technology in Germany) TheCuriousGnome (talk) 23:59, 22 May 2011 (UTC)Reply
I wasn't suggesting that it be in list format. I was pointing out that the same things were mentioned in the other article, making it virtually redundant. However. I did notice that there are similar lists for other countries, again, despite heavy overlap. As such, I am changing my vote to Keep.
Homo Logica (talk) 01:23, 23 May 2011 (UTC)Reply

Cherry tomatoes

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Latest comment: 12 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

There are countless reliable sources on the web that confirm the claim that the Israeli researchers Nachum Kedar and Haim Rabinowitch from the Agriculture Faculty of the Hebrew University developed the cherry tomatoes. Nevertheless, the article Cherry tomato on the English Wikipedia specifically states that cherry tomatoes were actually cultivated since at least the early 1800s. So what exactly did Kedar and Rabinowitch develop? TheCuriousGnome (talk) 15:27, 1 March 2012 (UTC)Reply

There are many many many examples of cherry tomatoes cultivated before the 70's, which is when Israel claims to have invented them. ([1], [F. Smith, Andrew (1994). The tomato in America: early history, culture, and cookery. ISBN 978-1-57003-000-0.], [2], [3], [4], [5]). Near as I've been able to figure, Kedar and Rabinowitch developed a variety of cherry tomato. The Israeli government has been claiming that the cherry tomato was an Israeli development in an effort to make Israel look better[6]. (I'm not sure how making claims that are easily verified as false is supposed to do that, but there you have it.)--StvFetterly(Edits) 19:58, 11 May 2012 (UTC)Reply

Cherry tomatoes are known from as far back as Aztec Mexico in the 15th century in Mesoamerica. Also in the 19th century CE Greek chroniclers noted Greeks bringing cherry tomato seeds back from the Sinai in Egypt Santorini (tomato). The claims on this Israeli variety, is just that simply one variety of something that has existed again since at least as far back as Aztec Mexico!

Nobel prize for Kahneman and Tversky

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Latest comment: 11 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Somehow, all other Nobel laureates are mentioned, but they don't. Any particular reason ? 122.150.37.211 (talk) 04:44, 15 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

Kahnemann should be mentioned as Nobel laureate. Tversky, however, was already dead, so no Noble prize for him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.6.11.15 (talk) 13:59, 18 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Bamba

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Latest comment: 10 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

According to the Wikipedia Bamba page, it was invented by a German company.Unchartered (talk) 11:00, 15 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Bamba is a corn puff, and corn puffs were invented in the USA in the 1930s. I don't really think substituting peanut flavor for cheese qualifies as an invention, but even if it did you're quite right - that was first done in Germany.--FergusM1970Let's play Freckles 14:39, 12 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Relevant information or not?

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Latest comment: 11 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Hi, I was wondering if it'd be okay to add a new sub-section under "computing" about popular Israeli made/created phone application. I don't know if this type of "inventions" should be included in the article.. Some possible sources I considered using are: 1 2 3 4/5. Any comments? Thanks, Shalom11111 (talk) 19:40, 3 October 2013 (UTC)Reply

  • I would say that Waze is a good candidate to put in such a section (it can also include computer programs such as ICQ, not just phone apps), but be careful to put there only the most prominent programs. Eldar (talk) 01:13, 4 October 2013 (UTC)Reply

Are all these really inventions?

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Latest comment: 8 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

A lot of the items listed here are only inventions by the most generous criteria imaginable, especially in the defence section. For example the Tavor, Uzi and Python are all undeniably Israeli-designed weapons, but Israel did not invent the assault rifle, submachinegun or air to air missile. I'd say these are new designs rather than inventions. --FergusM1970Let's play Freckles 01:15, 10 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Agree with this entry, there's an awful lot of entries on this page that are barely unique inventions/discoveries and quite a few erroneous claims. Galdrack (talk) 12:40, 22 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

what about Israeli espionage/theft, etc?

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Latest comment: 9 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

e.g.

http://original.antiwar.com/giraldi/2010/01/27/stealing-success-tel-aviv-style/

seems like it warrants a mention, no?

50.252.249.155 (talk)mpk40 — Preceding undated comment added 19:48, 3 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

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Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Cannabis research

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Latest comment: 11 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Israel is a pioneer in Cannabis research. I think that should be there in the list :) 96.54.228.6 (talk) 15:01, 17 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Unclear Scope and objective of page

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Latest comment: 4 days ago6 comments2 people in discussion

This page has quite a lot of innaccurate entries and claims, a big problem stems from the opening text "inventions and discoveries by Israeli scientists and researchers, working locally or overseas.". Including Israeli's living overseas is very misleading given the title and is not very representative. On similar pages this is not the case as the inventions/discoveries are generally attributed by the country itself or previous versions of that country (Eg different French republics).

Also a lot of entries are patents of a specific variant rather than an Invention or Discovery. Galdrack (talk) 13:59, 22 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

Agree - this feels like a list of products tenuously linked to Israel -- eg Wissotzky Tea, a company founded in Moscow in the 19th century, is headquartered in Tel Aviv. This doesn't make it an Israeli invention or discovery. Or Safed Cheese, produced since 1840 in Safed, which means it was invented more than 100 years before the founding of the state of Israel), plus some actual innovations and inventions that are directly from Israel. Is Israeli Whist an invention worthy of a mention, rather than just being a mention in the variants section of the Whist page?
GenericUsername2702 (talk) 21:22, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Exactly, the opening bold statement is also extremely broadly applied " inventions and discoveries by Israeli scientists and researchers, working locally or overseas" is a stretch in especially given how citizenship works in the modern age.
It should be updated to only inventions from Israel post founding and even then the vast majority of what gets added to this page are actually patents for companies and not actual inventions or discoveries, most of the worst I've removed but there's stll plenty of poor ones (I don't think the Uzi is an invention) that should be removed but users keep spamming them in here. Galdrack (talk) 10:56, 24 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Just so you know I actually reverted all the recent changes as they added dozens of entires most of which were companies, patents or incorrect assertations.
I also removed some foods that did not originate in Israel, I'll fix the additions you made though as I think they're more sincere tbh. Galdrack (talk) 12:11, 24 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thanks, I am not well versed in the "how" of Wikipedia editing beyond picking up a few basics so am liable to make some whoppers of mistakes without realising. GenericUsername2702 (talk) 22:33, 16 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
@GenericUsername2702 very much in the same boat but the amount of vandalism on this page was too much for me to ignore it tbh and it's mostly ignored which means it's really just me editing it currently apart from either spammers adding news articles or people sincerely adding stuff often from the hebrew version here. Galdrack (talk) 09:39, 18 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Gaga

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Latest comment: 4 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I've just come across List of Israeli inventions and discoveries: Difference between revisions dated 21 May when Eldar you deleted Gaga. Apart from Gaga (dance vocabulary) which has existed since October 2009 see https://www.gagapeople.com/en/, https://www.jacobspillow.org/picks/the-school/what-is-gaga/, https://www.danceinisrael.com/2008/11/going-gaga-my-intro-to-gaga-dance/ and many other sites including YouTube. Mcljlm (talk) 21:30, 31 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

2-adic cycles of elliptic curves / ZK-STARK's

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Latest comment: 2 days ago5 comments2 people in discussion

"The additional info is nice but doesn't change the fact this isn't an invention or discovery but a branding/patent. It's like saying "Volkswagen invented the Volkswagen Golf" which isn't accurate as they designed, developed, manufactured, patented and branded it but they didn't "invent" it because it's just a type of car"

No, this is not correct. ZK-STARK's are not a brand or patent - there are numerous independent companies working on building particular variations of ZK-STARK schemes, there is only one Volkswagen.

ZK-STARK's have a standard definition in academic literature, and a large depth of research into various schemes.

The chief invention here is the MNT4/MNT6 elliptic curve parameters, which were discovered through running an extensive computer search across a cluster (612,000 compute hours). They are a unique mathematical object in of themselves, which demonstrate non-trivial properties, worthy of note in the same way the n'th "xyz" prime is worthy of note.

I'll have to return tomorrow for part 2 of this. Liamzebedee (talk) 15:13, 7 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, no rush on the full explainer mind I'll be reading through both this and next week on it and might not get back before then. Galdrack (talk) 18:07, 7 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Liamzebedee have you had the chance to compose part two?
From the post so far my opinion hasn't changed as what you're saying here "there are numerous independent companies working on building particular variations of ZK-STARK schemes" reads the same as "there are numerous independent companies working on building particular variations of cars", they're variations on an invention not inventions themselves and slight differences wouldn't count as inventions either.
"MNT4/MNT6 elliptic curve parameters" they are just parameters or specs then? Like that's not the same as the concept of the X-Y-Z dimension chart which is itself a way of framing physical reality via math and would fall into the "discovery" category under a mathematical proof rather than an invention, also importantly from reading the source you provide that company didn't define MNT4/MNT6 it was two other people right? I think computer science and math can often be confusing around what qualifies as an "invention" since they're all about approaching math problems in different ways but unless they don't fundamentally alter that approach it isn't a discovery or invention.
This might sound needlessly strict but the issue here is that company's constantly promote new Patents or software as an "invention" when in reality it's more akin to a patent.
Thanks for the patience though I was very busy in the last week or so. Galdrack (talk) 09:37, 18 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Haha sorry, I completely forgot.
On further research, I don't think ZK-STARK's are fully an Israeli invention.
Re: the MNT4/MNT6 curve. I think I understand what you're saying and perhaps my language has been inaccurate here. The invention is in discovery of a PCD-friendly (proof-carrying-data, the parent category to ZK-STARK cryptography) cycle of curves. To elaborate from the original paper which introduced MNT4/MNT6 [1]:
> Main technique: PCD-friendly cycles of elliptic curves
> We observe that if this field F′ is the same as the aforementioned native field F of the zk-SNARK’s statement, then recursive composition can be orders of magnitude more efficient than otherwise
> For example, a PCD-friendly 2-cycle consists of two curves such that the (prime) size of the base field of one curve equals the group order of the other curve, and vice versa. Our implementation uses a PCD-friendly cycle of elliptic curves (found at a great computational expense) to attain zk-SNARKs that are tailored for recursive proof composition
So within the classification of an invention, (MNT4,MNT6) is the first PCD-friendly 2-cycle of curves (a 2 cycle requiring 2 curves). The MNT refers to Miyaji--Nakabayashi--Takano, which is a separate category invented by those researchers. So the MNT4/MNT6 refer to an instance of an MNT curve with particular parameters that were discovered by the authors in [1] using computational methods at great expense. (MNT4,MNT6) were searched for as a pair, since their utility comes from a property of their relationship that was defined in advance (outlined in previous paragraph).
What do you think? I think something here qualifies as an invention. The curve parameters no, the curves themselves no, the pair of (MNT4,MNT6) together potentially, the discovery of "a PCD-friendly cycle of elliptic curves" yes. However, the issue with the last point is that it is basically nonsense without context - the only use case for this curve cycle is in establishing a scalable ZK-SNARK scheme, which was first described or pioneered/invented in [1]. Perhaps you could offer what you think would be a good approach here.
[1] https://eprint.iacr.org/2014/595.pdf Liamzebedee (talk) 13:15, 18 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Liamzebedee no worries for forgetting I was away for ages too sure. First of all thanks for writing it out, secondly this stuff is very interesting and impressive and I'm saying that now for framing cause I'm not being dismissive but I'm rather clinical when it comes to defining the terms for these.
So I don't think this is either an invention or discovery at all but it seems like one, if I'm right in understanding effectively a ZK-STARK is used in blockchains as a proof specifically a Zero Knowledge Proof and blockchains themselves are effectively a Cryptogram. In this instance they've created an alternate method that will (ideally they state) make the Cryptogram more efficiently, what you're saying here "the only use case for this curve cycle is in establishing a scalable ZK-SNARK scheme" is correct because that's how a Cryptogram will work by design. I can see the issue with my earlier comparison it would probably be better to compare this to say a different model of key or say a different model of safe being constructed that uses a new method for the locks to function that make it harder to break into or whatever.
See it's hard to explain here how it's not a new invention/discovery because it fits a lot of the descriptions but still misses the core aim of an invention/discovery is to create/find something that either does something new or wasn't known before. In the case of cryptography and safemaking the entire point is to make it in a way no one has before but you're essentially still doing the same thing, instead it's the user who has to do something different, or well hacker/safe cracker.
The biggest issue with including it is that cryptography especially is infinite in nature and as such including entries like this could lead to the page essentially becoming only cryptograph methods and currently the page already has more than it should imo but usually it's some measure of a reference. I think there should be a completely different article made for them tbh but I don't want to like "erase" them or anything. I also feel the same way about this one too, by the looks of it blockchains will become a fairly big thing in Israel given it's Cryptography usage so a page on these could be something worthwhile in future.
I dunno how much of this specific work was done in Israel itself like you mention but that's a discussion for later I guess.
That make sense? Galdrack (talk) 21:09, 19 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
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