Talk:List of Hungarian Americans

Ethnicity lists discussion

Please see discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) for current discussion of a potential policy to apply to all ethnicity lists on Wikipedia, including this one. JackO'Lantern 20:40, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

A chaotic list

This list BADLY needs to be cleaned up. There is no order whatsoever here at this time.---Heff01, 4-17-06

Edward Teller and Johnny von Neumann...

Are both quite hungarian. I moved them up from the Other category into the Scientist category. Yes, they aren't cited and should be, but I'm confused as to why those two were removed when none of the other myriad of uncited exampled were left untouched. I put them back. Acornwithwings 05:25, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

who goes on this list?

This list refers to Hungarian Americans, which in turn mentions Hungarians. The latter article discusses Hungarians as members of the Magyar ethnic group. Is this list supposed to be limited to Magyars or is it to encompass American people and their descendants who were born in the territory of the country called Hungary, regardless of ethnic group? Hmains 21:42, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Elie Wiesel?

Can someone please explain how Elie Wiesel is Hungarian? He is not an ethnic Hungarian, he spoke Yiddish at home with his family, the town where he was born was part of the Kingdom of Romania at the time. If you have read his book "Night" he makes a clear distinction in that he refers to the Hungarian gendarmerie who deport him and his family to the ghettoes as "the Hungarians." If he were Hungarian himself he would not refer to a group of people of the same ethnicity in that way, would he? His only connection to being Hungarian is speaking the language, well, he also speaks German, French, Hebrew, and Romanian, why not list him as German-American, French-American, Hebrew-American and Romanian-American as well? --67.149.150.252 (talk) 04:40, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Massive blanking

Please do not engage in massive blanking; thank you for this courtesy. Badagnani (talk) 19:09, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

• No more filibustering. Been discussed for years (quite). Bulldog 20:10, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Please source this article. Unsourced entries should be removed. Resolute 20:54, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

It is well sourced. Individuals who don't have a source listed generally have their Hungarian ethnicity discussed in their own WP articles. Badagnani (talk) 21:17, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

You can't source wikipedia with wikipedia. Bulldog123 19:23, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Blanking of Mark Knopfler

Blanking of Mark Knopfler here (despite the fact that the Mark Knopfler article states that he is of Hungarian ancestry). Badagnani (talk) 23:57, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

But what makes him in any way an American and whom has ever referred to him in a source as a "Hungarian American" ? Peripitus (Talk) 00:09, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I checked again and he seems to be British. I've been following his music since the early 1980s and had always thought he lived in the U.S. If he isn't a naturalized U.S. citizen, as his article indicates, I agree that he should not be included in this article. Thanks for weeding this one out. Badagnani (talk) 00:18, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

You THOUGHT he was a naturalised (spelled with an S, since the subject is British) American, even though there is nothing in the article that says it? You say you have been following his music since the early 80's, and you didn't know he was British...? Did you not read the article, where no catergory states he is a US citizen, and see that he lives in Chelsea, London? Lastly, even if Mark Knopfler did naturalise, what is the basis of including his brother? You need to seriously check your facts before editing anything else into this article. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:08, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

removal of uncited material with no wp article

On all such articles I remove names that have no citation and no wp article. They do not meet the long stated inclusion criteria for the article. Editor who adds them need to follow the rules. Hmains (talk) 05:31, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

What rules? Your rules? Are you kidding? Viriditas (talk) 09:34, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Redlinks are not mandated to be removed from WP articles, but may in fact be beneficial in that they spur the creation of articles on truly notable individuals. Blanking those names first rather than discussing them first, so we can improve the article, isn't helpful. Badagnani (talk) 05:33, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Steve Erdody is probably notable (Grammy winner), but otherwise I agree with the removals, that wasn't a mindless mass blanking. Squash Racket (talk) 07:16, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it was a mindless mass blanking, and there is no better description of the edit. That's exactly what it was. None of the information was challenged, none of it was controversial, and none of it was verified or checked by the removing editors. Viriditas (talk) 09:36, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

It's eminently reasonable to ask for due deliberation, in the form of discussion here, prior to large deletions. Badagnani (talk) 07:21, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

You are right, he should mention this on the talk page before deleting anything. Squash Racket (talk) 07:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

User:Hmains, please undo [1] and discuss here. Thank you for this consideration. Badagnani (talk) 19:45, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't see how undo would be a good idea. The integrity of these lists depends on the people being of the nationality indicated and being notable. If they have a WP article and the article gives their nationality, that is OK; otherwise, if citations showing nationality and notability, that is OK; both is OK also. If this is not done, then that opens this list and all others like it open to mindless attacks by those who want to get rid of these lists altogether. This came up in previous deletion attempt discussions. The lists must be properly maintained to save them. Hmains (talk) 22:19, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

That argument can be made about anything and everyone. Red links should not be removed from lists and articles without good reason. And there is no hurry to edit war your chosen version into the article. Essentially, you are engaging in Ben Tre logic, and that doesn't hold water. Viriditas (talk) 00:44, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

WP:V is very clear. If the information cannot be verified, it may be removed. The burden of evidence is then upon anyone who wants to restore the material to provide proper references to verify the content. --Ronz (talk) 03:26, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

How about sourcing

Folks, how about first deciding on the criteria, then sourcing to show that people meet the criteria. If the linked article is sourced then doing this is a simple task, if not then either find one or remove them.....simple. This silly warring is just going to result in grief, stupid responses, blocking and pointless drama - Peripitus (Talk) 10:27, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I do notice at first glance some odd entries: Louis C.K. whose only Hungarian relative appears to be his paternal grandfather and I can see nowhere in the press referred to as "Hungarian-American" - is this an acceptable entry ?. Jesse Ventura whose ancestors seem to come from Slovakia and Germany...not Hungary. Mark Singel, Keith Jarrett and Joseph M. Gaydos—no references and they have articles without a single mention of Hungary or Hungarian descent. - Peripitus (Talk) 10:27, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree, before we even begin to deal with the details we should first decide on the criteria. But I guess that debate belongs somewhere else, for example Category talk:Lists of American people by ethnic or national origin, so that we can notify all noticeboards and everybody can join the discussion. Squash Racket (talk) 10:44, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I'd quote a very interesting comment from an earlier — unsuccessful — nomination for deletion of the page though:

List of Hungarian American is not a random "ethnicity-nationality-occupation intersection", as claimed in the nomination, but a list of notable Americans falling within the established United States Census Bureau ancestry category "Hungarian Americans"; USCB defines ancestry as "a person’s ethnic origin, heritage, descent, or 'roots,' which may reflect their place of birth, place of birth of parents or ancestors, and ethnic identities that have evolved within the United States."[2] This official definition is applicable to List of Hungarian American as well; the statement, "these people hardly qualify as Hungarians by any definition...they may have been born in Hungarian-territory, which would make some refer to them mistakenly as Hungarians" is therefore pointless and irrelevant. Pia 01:11, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Hope that clarifies a few things. Squash Racket (talk) 13:13, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

It is great to see that content is being discussed here at "Discussion." Regarding Keith Jarrett, he has stated in interviews "I'm Hungarian."[3] There are other sources as well. If there is doubt about any of the other individuals in this list, let's work on them here and do the same thing. Badagnani (talk) 14:40, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Good catch. Thanks for placing the source in as well.

As for inclusion criteria, my concerns are that it is clear, manageable, and consistent with any related or similar GA articles. --Ronz (talk) 17:13, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

User:Squash Racket needs to understand that just because someone like Drew Barrymore has Hungarian background, it doesn't automatically make her a Hungarian.... as he would like to think. Until that misconception is cleared up, this list is doomed. Bulldog 19:36, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

But it makes her a Hungarian American. User:Bulldog123 needs to understand that I quoted a comment that cited the definition of the United States Census Bureau while I can't see any serious source on which he bases his own statements. Squash Racket (talk) 04:59, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

According to Hungarian American, "Hungarian Americans are American citizens of Hungarian descent." That's the definition, and, if sourced, they're eligible to be included in this list. Badagnani (talk) 19:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

First of all, read WP:SYNTH. Secondly, you can't source wikipedia with wikipedia. Bulldog123 19:22, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Blanking without prior careful, thoughtful, and deliberate discussion

is unhelpful to our article and project (as this editor has been requested dozens of times). See [4]. It's best if we take a different tack and accord serious discussion prior to engaging such large, insistent, and repeated deletions. Doing so will bring us closer to the ethos of our founders, as a maximally collaborative and collegial project. Badagnani (talk) 15:10, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

No. WP:V is clear, as are WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF, WP:TALK, WP:BRD. Please join the other editors here in respecting Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Thanks! --Ronz (talk) 17:07, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, blanking without prior careful, thoughtful, and deliberate discussion really is unhelpful, and often destructive, not only to our content, but to our project's fundamentally collaborative spirit. Badagnani (talk) 17:32, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Great. So anytime you're willing to actually try following those policies and guidelines, please do so. --Ronz (talk) 17:46, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Confusion is complete

This whole thing started with User:Bulldog123 removing content of this article to try to conform to his goal of making the article ONLY contain first generation Hungarian Americans and NOT ANY other generations. He even renamed the article to match this re-purposing goal after all his deletions--a rename which I asked and obtained reversal on. Now with a bunch of comments by other editors, few of whom seem to have actually read the history of this article but just read other editor's comments, the editors who did not want these mass deletions and article re-purposing of Bulldog123 to happen are the ones being accused of doing what Bulldog123 actually did! Incredible. Such as waste of words and time. What is the point of all this other than have the opportunity to write bad words about other editors and pursue old grudges? The discussion has little to do with this article, as such. This article is just like all the other fooian-American lists: it contains both first and other generations of Hungarian Americans, referencing the Hungarian American article which discusses all generations--just like the other fooian American articles. Can editors discuss this without anger and outrage and just stick to the article(s)? Hmains (talk) 02:47, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I find what's incredible is that after over a year of explaining to Hmains how to correctly source a List of X-Americans, he still thinks my goal was to make the article contain only first-generation Hungarians. I don't care how many generations they are, but a source saying "his mom was Hungarian" does not make the person a second-generation Hungarian-American. Learn already. And no, the whole thing did not start with me, people have been battling these lists for half a decade. Bulldog123 19:03, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, we can, should, and must. Badagnani (talk) 02:50, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok, any chance Andor Szentivanyi is going to be added back into the article? Viriditas (talk) 09:07, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Is he notable enough for the list? I see he doesn't have his own wiki article, should that matter and should red link entries be ok? Can you provide citations that verify he is of Hungarian descent? Lots of questions I know, sorry :) --Tom (talk) 13:09, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

ps, sorry, just read article page where it says person must have their own article, was that added recently and is that the consensus? I would probably favor that so folks could click on the article and read more, anyways, --Tom (talk) 13:11, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't say that. It says they should have an article or references, but that was something Hmains added, I believe. I don't really care one way or another. All I know, is that Andor Szentivanyi, one of the most notable Hungarian Americans in medicine, was removed from this list. I'm sorry that you aren't familiar with him, but he meets and exceeds all the requirements. Sources aren't the problem. If someone had merely requested them to begin with, which is normal procedure, they would have been provided. We don't delete content merely because it lacks sources. That has never been the sole criterion for removal. Viriditas (talk) 13:24, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Right now, the article page says the person "must" have a Wiki article, again, I don't agree or disagree with that, just noting it. If this person is notable, a page should be created with citations it seems. Anyways, I don't feel that strongly about this either way, good luck. --Tom (talk) 14:45, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Again, it doesn't say that. Please read the entire paragraph. :) Viriditas (talk) 21:52, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I apologize, I stand corrected. They must have an article OR must have references showing they are Hungarian American AND are notable. Good luck on the last point :) Anyways, no biggie. Sorry again, --Tom (talk) 22:38, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

No problem. As I mentioned above, Andor Szentivanyi's notability has already been established and references proving he is Hungarian American are easy to find. My point was, we don't delete list entries merely because they don't have sources or an article. The process is to tag the information if there is a problem or to use the talk page, none of which seems to have been done by the people hounding Badagnani's contribution list and blanket reverting his edits. Those people are the same editors who simultaneously started an RFC against him and tried to provoke him into edit warring and incivility. Viriditas (talk) 04:35, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

(outdent)ok. You seem to be making sense to me. I don't know about the history about blanking and hounding, ect, ect., and I probably don't want to :) I know I sometimes remove/blank material if it is unsourced rather than tagging it. I chaulk that up to being bold. If somebody then disagrees, then it should be tagged and taken to the talk page, per WP:BRD, no harm there it seems. Anyways, --Tom (talk) 12:47, 25 March 2009 (UTC) The University of Manitoba has a website dedicated to Szentivanyi and the URL is in Wikipedia pasted under Neuroendocrinology/pioneers of Neuroendocrinology that prooves Szentivanyi's ethnicity. I profusly appologize for not being able to cut and paste the link to this page.

WP:Lists

A number of the editors here seem unfamiliar with the basic guideline for lists, WP:LIST. Obviously, we're having a disagreement on the basic inclusion criteria. My own concerns are that whatever criteria is decided, this list can be maintained. Again, I think it would be helpful to determine if there are any GA lists similar to this that we can follow. --Ronz (talk) 17:56, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

You can't make up your own criteria though. You can only have a criteria that's reflective of the title. e.g., List of people of Hungarian descent - which people confuse for this list all the time. Bulldog123 19:19, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Discussion removed

Discussion removed here. Badagnani (talk) 22:41, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Another mass AfD "without-the-regulars" might be the only solution

Clearly nobody gets it (which is amazing after all this time). But since nobody here, as far as I can tell, is illiterate, it must be that they pretend not to get it. Otherwise, I don't get it. These lists are in a perpetual unencyclopedic hell - where new users will continually re-add people without the correct references, or correct justifications of notability. There have already been a few mass Afds for List of X-Americans, most that ended in no-consensus and a few that have been deleted but then overturned - again through a 'no consensus.'

I'm suggesting a more definitive gauge of opinion by opening another AfD that would exclude anyone who participated in these discussions. Meaning me, Hmains, Ronz, etc... Bulldog123 19:16, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Phoenix family

Is there any sensible reason to include Joaquin and River Phoenix, but not their sisters Liberty, Rain & Summer, and their mother Arlyn? Liberty seems not to have an article, but the others do. 82.141.94.123 (talk) 03:56, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Now Liberty has also an article... 212.50.203.198 (talk) 18:01, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

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