Talk:List of Christian devotional literature

Article scope

This is a notable topic and the page certainly deserves to exist. But the treatment is really narrow. The Eastern Orthodox, Catholics, etc. are all but forgotten. The claim about 17th century is certainly a very narrow claim and many examples contradict it. Good topic, but needs seious expansion and broadening. The books selected are cherry picked and no WP:RS sources are offered that they are in any way representative of Christianity as a whole. And at the moment, the article is a short telegram followed by a list. Needs much expansion to do justice to the topic. History2007 (talk) 02:32, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Another issue is that of oral tradition versus written material. Is the article intended as only written material or also an analysis of the devotions and their development? There is no article yet on Christian devotions. The written part would need to follow the structure of the devotions themselves. And again the Eastern Orthodox case where liturgy and devotion often blend together in an ongoing form will provide challenges. Yet another issue is that of art and music, for many devotional themes are often accompanied by images - e.g. Sacred Heart of Jesus, etc. And are prayer books part of this? Prayer songs? History2007 (talk) 08:08, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Hello User:History2007, I would suggest that this article cover only topics related to Christian devotional literature, as this topic is alone a noteworthy one. When one walks into a Christian bookstore, a large section is often called "devotionals" or "devotional literature." This article would help clarify what "devotional literature" or "devotionals" are. I think it might be a good idea if I added this alternate term in the lede. Moreover, there are already articles on the devotional medal and devotional scapular. In addition, from looking at the article, it seems that there already links to the articles for Catholic devotions and Anglican devotions. Nevertheless, it might be helpful to create a separate article for Christian devotions. It seems like the article was recently created by StAnselm (talk · contribs). I think it might be a good idea if I posted a message on his talk page in order to get an idea what he intended when he created the article. In the future, if time allows, I may try to help expand this article. God bless, Anupam^Talk 09:05, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

The impetus in creating the article was the large number of articles linking to the Devotion disambiguation page. Many now point to this article as a result. These are all referring to Christian devotions, and I support the article rename. I notice that Devotion has many incoming links that are meant for Hindu devotional literature or some such article. StAnselm (talk) 10:23, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I think everyone thinks the topic is noteworthy. So let us accept that and move on to the next issue. As a reader I would wonder if this is just about the "literature on devotions" or the "devotions". So that needs to be clarified. As is it is clearly about the literature, but what the devotions are is a question hanging there.

And I think we must accept that there is some vagueness built-into the topic. But the questions a reader would ask would be: "is a prayer book" devotional literature? E.g. is the Raccolta devotional? It is not dogmatic or theological. An what about a book on the Immaculate conception. Is it devotional? But the Immaculate conception is dogmatic. Then what about the books on Immaculate conception before it became a dogma?

Regarding "neither doctrinal nor theological" how about liturgical issues? Catholic devotions are defined as "external practices of piety which are not part of the official liturgy of the Catholic Church but are part of the popular spiritual practices of Catholics". So this should address the question of liturgy somewhere. And again Eastern Orthodox issues will be challenging.

A section on the history and development would be useful. Were the Letters of Paul devotional at the time? Or theological? Augustine's confessions? So the lineage needs to get traced. I guess Aquinas is not applicable here, for he was mostly theological and reading him is not the average person's passtime. Was Teresa of Avila devotional? I guess so... Did Martin Luther ever write anything devotional? Do Lutherans have a large body of devotional literature? And when are devotions marked as heresies?

I do not have answers for all of these questions, and work on this article is not on my path now, so I will leave it to you guys to do. But as a reader, I would like to see more history clarification and WP:RS references. History2007 (talk) 11:45, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I thought it would be best for me not to watch this page for a while else I will type too much. I will leave the questions for you guys to address. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 13:13, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

For anyone interested in turning this into a 'real' article, rather than a list, it's worthy to note that the mid to late 19th century saw a huge increase in Catholic devotional literature, particularly in America. Some of the more notable devotional authors were Fr. Faber, Fr. Michael Müller, Fr. John Morris, Francis Libermann, and St. Peter Julian Eymard. Their works were all printed in America (and translated, obviously). With the canonization of Alphonsus Liguori in the 1800's, his works were translated into English into 20 volumes and were very popular. The 19th century also saw the establishment of many Catholic book clubs and mailing lists, which added to the popularity of not just theological tracts, but also devotional books. As for the cultural or political aspect of this popularity, it's related in part to the immigration of Catholics from European countries, and in part to the many restrictions on Catholic printing and publishing houses in early 19th century America which were lifted in the mid-late 1800's.

That's just an idea for a section if a 'real' article is made. In the meantime I'll expand the list and include some of the more obvious and typical devotional Catholic works.

I like your questions History2007. I've considered them myself. In most Catholic book book stores, a book of prayers such the Breviary and a spiritual work such as The Imitation of Christ would be in separate categories. The Breviary would be in the 'Liturgical' category and The Imitation would be in 'Spiritual/Devotional' category. However, a non-liturgical book of prayers such as the Raccolta will usually be found in the same parent category with The Imitation, but would eventually be placed into it's own sub-category of 'Prayer' since it's not considered literature in the strict sense. However, the same can't always be said for some Protestants. For some Protestants, their hymn books, prayer books, and liturgical books (if they believe in liturgies) are their devotional "literature". Many denominations either a) have not been around long enough to produce their own devotional literature, or b) don't have any or much devotional literature (or at least not of the same type as Catholics) since they view the spiritual life very differently from Catholics, Orthodox, Anglo-Catholics, etc.

Regarding a book on the Immaculate Conception or some similar book, that would have to be judged on a case-by-case basis. Usually works clarify whether they are dogmatic, polemical, devotional, etc. St. Teresa of Avila is most certainly devotional. St. Paul's letter's were read in the churches, as were other books. They were probably considered devotional for then, but certainly wouldn't be considered devotional now. For St. Augustine's Confessions, I think it's the opposite of St. Paul. --ChristianHistory (talk) 00:32, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

By the way, the intro is laughable. Hate to break it to Karl Holl, but Christian devotional literature was "fully developed" long before the Pietists were around. And there is no such thing as a Christian devotional work that is "neither doctrinal nor theological". While devotional works may not be works of theology (such as a dogmatic treatise) they are still intrinsically doctrinal and theological. --ChristianHistory (talk) 01:44, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Ok, so let's have a consensus on who thinks this should be turned into a 'real' article, and who thinks it should just be a giant list. It makes no difference to me, except that regardless of what happens that intro needs to be changed.

Let me add this in case it will influence anyone's decision: I will gladly take the time to add a thousand works to the list if need be, and will also make sections for it into Catholic, Orthodox, and various types of Protestants. But if it's decided to turn it into a real article, I'm not up to writing it, except to maybe add something on the 19th century later on. --ChristianHistory (talk) 09:35, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Selection criteria

The WP:Stand-alone lists guideline says that lists should have clear selection criteria. When I came across this article, the list was basically indiscriminate. In cleaning up, I've followed the following provisional selection criteria:

1. Fits the definition: intended intended or suitable for normal people to read in order to improve their faith life
2. Only works that are notable enough to have their own article, with an exception for works by notable historical figures from the Middle Ages or earlier
3. One work per author

Especially #2 might be too strict, and other criteria should perhaps be added, but this is what I've used. Kind regards from PJvanMill (talk) 21:43, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

Potential references to find literature that should be included

These are sources from the Devotional literature article on GAMEO. I removed a statement that had this article as its only source, because it misrepresented what the article says and because using a tertiary source is dubious to begin with, certainly for this particular statement. But I noticed there was a list of sources in the article that could be used to determine what literature is important and should be listed in this article, so I thought I would put those sources here. Kind regards from PJvanMill (talk) 22:46, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

That one was listed as an "external link". Kind regards from PJvanMill (talk) 10:06, 9 April 2020 (UTC)