Talk:Limusaurus/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: FunkMonk (talk · contribs) 11:48, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

• Alright, since all I've done on this article is to add a few images, I think I'm sufficiently uninvolved to offer a review. So first some initial thoughts. FunkMonk (talk) 11:48, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
• You say that it is "traditionally considered as the basal member of the group Ceratosauria", but does the source really say "traditionally"? I'm not sure how a hypothesis that has existed for less than ten years can be considered a "tradition". If the source doesn't say it, something like "generally" or "originally" would probably be more appropriate.

Done, changed to "originally". Lythronaxargestes (talk) 17:29, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

• I think it should be mentioned in the intro that the digit-homology issue was relevant to bird evolution in the intro, that's at least why there was so much fuzz about it back then.

Added, but it feels a little awkward. Will revise further. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 17:29, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

• I think specimen numbers can be unbolded, bold should not be used in the prose outside the intro (apart from in cladograms). I know it is seen in some other articles, but I think it's only one user who does this, and it is not used in promoted articles.

Done. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 17:29, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

• The image style guide says that depicted subjects should preferably face the text[1], so for example the image under Paleobiology should probably be moved to the right. Then it won't clash with the headers either. And well, it just looks better...

Done. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 17:29, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

• I've thought a bit about whether the Headden skeletal should be swapped with the photo in the taxobox, but I'm not sure. The photo is a bit unclear, but of course, it shows the actual holotype (which should probably be noted in the caption). There is also a lighter photo of the slab on Commons[2], but it is in lower res, so I'm not sure which is best.
• There is a diagram explaining the frame-shift hypothesis on Commons[3], but I'm not sure if it would be too supportive of the largely discredited (I think?) theory to include it here.

I don't think the diagram is meant to represent the frameshift hypothesis at all... it seems more like BDR, or a version of lateral shift. Either way, perhaps it could be added in the context of the discussion about BDR? Lythronaxargestes (talk) 17:29, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Might as well shove a to-do list for issues about images under here. Limusaurus has three phalanges on III, yet the diagram under Paleobiology only shows two. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 17:39, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Hmmm, do you want to take a stab at modifying it, or should I? What would be a good reference image? Too bad this dinosaur wasn't published on in a CC license, kind of scant on good images... FunkMonk (talk) 18:36, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

I could take a crack at it. Guinard's teratology paper has a good diagram of the forelimb in fig. 3. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 18:49, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

What would be the correct way to do the attribution for the modified version on Commons? Still not quite clear on how the system works. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 18:57, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

You can just add "modified by" after Conty's name in the author field (but I rarely even do that when I modify images). Might also be a good idea to add a citation for what the final image is based on... FunkMonk (talk) 19:04, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Should I also mark it as public domain? Since the paper I referenced is paywalled, after all.... Lythronaxargestes (talk) 19:11, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

If you modify the Commons image, it should stay the same license. If you make a new one from scratch, you can decide for yourself, but the image can't be identical to the one in the paper, because then there would be a copyright issue. FunkMonk (talk) 19:50, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Updated forelimb diagram

Thanks for the guidance, FunkMonk; hope this is sufficient. I don't know of any good figures of the pectoral girdle, nor measurements to verify proportions. Not sure about articulation either, but I think it's clear that the old image had a broken elbow.... Lythronaxargestes (talk) 19:54, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Looks good, if the proportions fit the published diagrams, but isn't the lower arm flexing slightly in the wrong direction? Compared with for example this skeletal:[4] FunkMonk (talk) 20:00, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Hm, good point. Perhaps this is because the humerus is not in lateral view. The diagram does not specify. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 20:07, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Modified to use humerus from ontogeny paper skeletal. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 20:27, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Looks better! By the way, you don't have to upload as a new file every time you modify, you can just upload a new version on top of the old image ("Upload a new version of this file" at the bottom of the file page). FunkMonk (talk) 20:35, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Oops, TIL! I'll add it to the article promptly, then. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 20:36, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Since other image comments are going here ... I've been remaking the size comparison. I'll upload the current one here (shows the adult size), but I was wondering if I should include juvenile sizes too? IJReid ^discuss 19:46, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Why not, but aren't several juveniles of different sizes known? How would we decide what size to show? FunkMonk (talk) 19:53, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

There's a skeletal what is presumably a stage I juvenile provided in the paper alongside the adult. Probably the best source for the juvenile. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 20:02, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

New chart looks nice, but maybe the silhouettes shouldn't overlap? Seems a bit like the guy is about to be castrated! FunkMonk (talk) 20:26, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

I noticed that, thought it looked funny XD. I guess I can shift it over a bit to give him some breathing room. (Juvenile silhouette has been added) IJReid ^discuss 21:10, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

I fixed it now, how does it look Lythronaxargestes? IJReid ^discuss 21:22, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Looks good to me at least, I had the same issue with Nemegtomaia yesterday, so I just "flipped the bird"... FunkMonk (talk) 21:23, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Also looks good to me, except the adult could perhaps be shifted a little further right so that the premaxilla doesn't come into contact with the hand..... Lythronaxargestes (talk) 21:25, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

One bird is now flipped. I left the other facing the original way though. (PS: In GIMP you can make the grids easily, but for some reason this grid is rendering oddly, should I make the lines thicker?) IJReid ^discuss 21:35, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Hm, perhaps thicker lines would be a good idea. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 21:38, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

All done. Any more comments on it? IJReid ^discuss 22:43, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

None from me. Thanks for helping out! Lythronaxargestes (talk) 22:53, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

• I think it would maybe make more sense to explain the hypothesis that Limusaurus and Guanlong were trapped in sauropod footprints in a marsh under the section about taphonomic implications?

I agree. Moved. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 17:29, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

• More to come as I read the article.
• The discussion of gastroliths under groewth belongs somewhere in the paleobiology section, it is not descriptive of the animal's morphology.

The entire section beginning with "Adult specimens are characterized by..."? Either way, moved to the "feeding ecology" section; moved histology out since it didn't quite feel so relevant. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 17:43, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

Further comments

• "a hitherto unknown feature in non-coelurosaurian theropods" Since hitherto means until now, this statement is wrong (due to Chilesaurus), so should say something like "until the discovery of Limusaurus" or something.

Fixed. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 17:43, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

• Fenestrae, morphology, and type species should be linked.

Linked the first occurence of each term in the article. Please let me know if more links are needed. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 17:43, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

• You mention the loss of teeth twice in the description, should perhaps be restricted to the growth section.

Only found one occurrence, removed it. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 17:43, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

• You may want to explain "articulated", I have been asked during FACs.

Done. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 17:43, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

• "Like the holotype and paratype" You have not mentioned there is a paratype prior to this. I guess it is the other specimen in the original block? If so, this could also be mentioned in the taxobox photo caption (holotype and paratype).

Hm, since it is not explicitly named as the paratype anywhere in the lit either, I changed it to "second specimen". Lythronaxargestes (talk) 17:43, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

Ok, still think holotype should be mentioned in the taxobox caption. FunkMonk (talk) 16:03, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

• "however, recent research places" Words like "recent" and "presently" should be avoided; this article may stand for decades from now.

Would "more recent" be a viable alternative? Lythronaxargestes (talk) 17:43, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

That is the same problem. I think it is better to just write exact dates for different studies. "Recent" will mean nothing down the line. FunkMonk (talk) 16:03, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Ok, specified/reworded to remove references to "recent". Lythronaxargestes (talk) 17:59, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Replaced with "more recent" and "subsequent". Lythronaxargestes (talk) 17:45, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

• "most similar to that of Jeholornis." Say what kind of animal that is.

Went with "avialan". Would "bird" be preferable? Lythronaxargestes (talk) 17:43, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

I think it's fine. FunkMonk (talk) 16:03, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

• "of the available specimens of Limusaurus specimens" Repetitive.

Oops. Corrected. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 17:43, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

• Reading through the digit homology section, I see no mention of the controversy about bird origins that this was thought to have implications of and was pretty controversial at the time, and how those implications are moot now that Limusaurus appears to have been a dead end. This needs to be explained, especially now that it is mentioned in the intro.

Added discussion. Does it need to be more extensive or will this suffice? Lythronaxargestes (talk) 17:59, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

I think it's fine, but if any of the sources say so, perhaps state clearly that Limusaurus' hands now seem to be irrelevant to bird evolution? I would personally also mention names of the researchers involved and dates of publications for context (especially when it comes to controversies), but I don't think it is necessarily required. FunkMonk (talk) 18:22, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

The former: it is more-or-less stated in the Precedings paper, though I'm unsure where it should be placed. The latter: added a few. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 19:06, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Added. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 21:14, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

• Words like basal and plesiomorphic also need explanation.

Added explanations. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 17:59, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

• "gastroliths, and feeding ecology" Gastroliths are part of feeding, so I'm not sure they need mention in the title?

Oh, that's true. Removed. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 17:59, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

• You should state specifically when this animal lived and how approximately long ago this was under the Paleoecology.

Added in the first paragraph under Paleoecology. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 17:59, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

• Why do you write full binomials under paleoecology, when the rest of the article mainly uses genus names?

I was following the source, in which the list of tetrapods is at the species level. Either way, removed specific names for now. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 17:59, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

• Has it been suggested exactly what kind of plant matter it fed on?

None of the papers mention any specific sort of foliage. However, there is lots of information available about the Shishugou's flora. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 17:59, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

I mentioned flora in for example the Baryonyx paleoecology section myself (where I also dumped the taphonomic info), so it can certainly be done, especially since it is even more relevant to an article about a herbivorous animal? Nice to have a description of the environment in any case. FunkMonk (talk) 18:22, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Ok, added flora & further climate details. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 19:06, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Very nice, perhaps specify which kind of plants? For example say "Araucaria trees", etc. FunkMonk (talk) 19:14, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Oops, missed this. I've done it. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 03:36, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

• Citations are not needed in the intro, which is only supposed to be a summary of the article body, where the citations are found.

Removed. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 17:59, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

• Words like "notably" and "remarkable" are too hyperbolic, should be avoided. Words like "significant" etc are more appropriate.

Removed/reworded occurrences of these words. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 17:59, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

• When these issues are fixed, I'm ready to pass the article. Perhaps IJReid has some further comments, now he's here? FunkMonk (talk) 17:57, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

• Since its been suggested, I'll add a few comments. Mainly, there are a few sections that could have more information, the Discovery, and Classification. The Discovery section should include things like the history of classification and basically anything that is moderately outdated. The Classification could go more in depth into the features that support the classifications. Basically just a bit more information in these sections should be good.

Hm, alright. Will do. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 19:09, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Though, not entirely sure if "history of classification" fits under the "discovery and naming" banner..... FunkMonk, what do you think? Lythronaxargestes (talk) 19:15, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

The sections should definitely be kept separate, but if more details about excavations and what makes it recognisable as a ceratosaur/abelisaur etc. could be added, that might be nice. I personally only put classification info in history sections if it is very general outdated stuff ("this dinosaur was first thought to be a crocodile", etc.), or what species that were at one point classified in the genus, but when it comes to more nitty gritty stuff ("this has been considered either a basal ceratosaur or a more derived one"), I'd say it goes in the classification section. See for example Stegoceras. FunkMonk (talk) 19:20, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Added both excavation info and ceratosaurian synapomorphies. Quite unsure on the latter due to abundance of jargon and length. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 20:59, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

I usually just mention the most important, and least technical features, while noting these are just some of them, by saying "such as". So you can cut it down if you want. FunkMonk (talk) 21:04, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Cut down accordingly. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 21:14, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

• Only other point, I think you confused the Deltopectoral crest with the Humeral head in the arm diagram. The Humerus should be articulating with the scapulacoracoidat the very end of the shaft, and not at that expansion. IJReid ^discuss 18:45, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Drat, I've unfortunately lost the original file.... this one may have to take some Photoshop wizardry, which is beyond my skill set..... Lythronaxargestes (talk) 19:09, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

You think you might be able to fix it, IJReid? FunkMonk (talk) 19:14, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Oh yeah sure. I'll get it done now. IJReid ^discuss 19:26, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Should be fixed now, just need an OK from Lythronaxargestes as per guidelines for these things. IJReid ^discuss 19:52, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Looks splendid. Many thanks. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 20:26, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

• Ok, I think this is passes GA now. Nice work! For FAC, you might want to read through the entire article again and see how you can make the text more understandable for lay-readers, perhaps simplify some things, and maybe explain more things. But the most obvious issues have been dealt with during this review. Some jargon is unavoidable in an article like this, but it's fine as long as it is properly "translated" and explained for layreaders. FunkMonk (talk) 21:04, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to review the article! This was a very informative experience. Lythronaxargestes (talk) 21:14, 1 January 2017 (UTC)