Talk:Li Na (daughter of Mao Zedong)

Still Alive?

Text states death in 2012, the infobox on the right does not mention death.

One of them must be wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.110.163.209 (talk) 14:14, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Li Na or Li Ne

I have requested speedy deletion for this page so that I can move the following similarly titled page which I created

Li Na (Daughter of Mao Zedong)

as the word 'daughter' ought not to be capitalised.

Once this page is deleted I will move the Daughter page to daughter in place of this one. Quelcrime (talk) 01:00, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

• Move. The only pinyin of 讷 is Ne, not Na. Please refer to Any Chinese dictionary, e.g., Kingsoft's online dictionary for 讷. --Neo-Jay (talk) 07:22, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

The following opinion was left at Talk:Li Ne and I moved here. --Neo-Jay (talk) 08:03, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

This character has alternate pronunciations of Nè and Nà. The former may be more common and a basic dictionary may only show that pronunciation. Both are shown on the Wiktionary page, and in more thorough dictionaries. In this case the correct pronunciation is Nà, not Nè.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E8%A8%A5

"訥 (simplified 讷, pinyin nà (na4), nè (ne4), Wade-Giles na4, *4)"

Please do not revert again. Quelcrime (talk) 18:22, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Please don't rely on Wiktionary, which is obviously not a reliable source. see Wikipedia:Reliable source. Please look up a Chinese dictionary. If you find any Chinese dictionary in which 讷 is pronounced as Ne, please present it here.--Neo-Jay (talk) 08:03, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

My physical dictionary seems to confirm what you're saying, but mandarintools.com and unicode.org list both romanisations. And more importantly, this government-owned source does call her "Li Na". Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 08:22, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

The mandarintools.com is a personal website and is not reliable. As for the unicode.org and CRI article, I think they are apparently wrong. I can also find an article by Xinhua News Agency in which 李讷 was called Li Ne. The most reliable source is Chinese dictionary. No published dictionary lists Na as a pronunciation of 讷. Its only pronunciation is Ne. If 讷 is also pronounced as Na, then what its meaning is when it is pronounced so? Why should the pronunciation Na (if it really exists) apply to 李讷? The names of Mao Zedong's two daughters, Li Min (李敏) and Li Ne (李讷), are from Analects Part 4: "君子欲讷于言而敏于行" ("The superior man wishes to be slow in his speech and earnest in his conduct"). Every dictionary, e.g., Kingsoft's 讷, says 讷 is pronounced as Ne when it means "slow in speech".--Neo-Jay (talk) 09:19, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

It seems that anything that gives the alternate readings is 'unreliable' to NeoJay. The Kingsoft dictionary he keeps citing is not a thorough dictionary. Any thorough dictionary will give alternate readings. The correct pronunciation, as spoken by Ms Li herself, and as confirmed by any thorough dictionary,or gloss on the analects, is 'Na'.JaneGrey 19:30, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Here's another - http://www.zdic.net/ "讷 拼音:nà　nè　繁体字:訥" but of course to NeoJay this will also be 'apparently wrong'JaneGrey 19:39, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Why not read the introduction of Zdic at its About page? It's a personal website and not a reliable source. I highly suggest you read Wikipedia:Reliable sources and Wikipedia:Verifiability carefully before you edit. --Neo-Jay 20:06, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Certain characters when used as Chinese names have different pronunciations to how they are normally pronounced: see, e.g. Qin Hui (Song Dynasty). It is WP:OR to back-form the "proper" pronunciation of 讷 from the Confucian analects. Sources, both reliable and unreliable, say that 李讷 is pronounced "Li Na". A simple Google search on "Chairman Mao's daughters" or "Mao Zedong's daughters" should confirm this.

A person's name is pronounced as it is pronounced in actual usage: M'Naghten is pronounced as "MacNaughten" because that is how everyone pronounces it; it is not pronounced as m-nah-ten. I think almost every adult Chinese person would know that 李讷 is pronounced "Li Na". This consistent and universal usage should be decisive. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 22:19, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Hey, I am relying on the modern Chinese dictionary. I really cannot understand why you think it's an original research (WP:OR). If you read the edit history of Qin Hui (Song Dynasty), you would know that it is I that moved Qin Kuai to Qin Hui (Song Dynasty). And I have given clear source of Chinese dictionary that 桧 is pronounced as Hui (see Talk:Qin Hui (Song Dynasty)). However, Na is not a dictionary pronunciation of 讷 at all! I don't know whether you are a adult Chinese person, but I am. I clearly know that 李讷 is pronounced "Li Ne", not "Li Na". Just see the article Liu Shan (刘禅), son of Liu Bei. There was also a debate whether his name is Liu Chan or Liu Shan (see Talk:Liu Shan). I believe that many adult Chinese persons also mis-pronounce 刘禅 as Liu Chan. But this pronunciation is wrong. Wikipedia finally corrected the title.

Let me summarize the case of 李讷: if we rely upon a valid Chinese dictionary, Ne is the only pronunciation of 讷; if we rely upon Internet web search, both Li Na and Li Ne are used (I have provided a Xinhua News Agency article in which 李讷 was called Li Ne). Then why must we use Li Na, not Li Ne, as the title? Please give us a reliable source to prove almost every adult Chinese person know that she is pronounced "Li Na".--Neo-Jay (talk) 06:38, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Neo-Jay - not that I think you're necessarily wrong, but it's a little strange that you can summarily dismiss other sources that romanises it as "Na". Here are a few other dictionaries that offer both "Na" and "Ne" - [1][2][3]. How do you know that you are not actually wrong? And what makes Kingsoft such a trustworthy dictionary? After all, this is the same dictionary that translates "深啡色" as "nigger brown".[4] Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 08:25, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately all the three sources your provided are from personal websites, and are not reliable sources. Most importantly, all the three sources do not provide the difference of meanings between the two pronunciations. Even if Na is also a pronunciation of 讷, then why should this pronunciation apply to 李讷. Why not the other pronunciation Ne? Please refer to a Chinese dictionary, not just English personal websites that only provided pronunciations. If you like to read more reliable sources, please see, e.g., Yahoo! online Chinese dictionary at 讷, Baidu's dictionary at 讷, HttpCN online dictionary 讷, Teachercn online dictionary at 讷, Dr. eye dictionary at its homepage, Guoxue.com dictionary at 訥, etc... Enough? You can also look it up in every printed Chinese dictionary. I bet that all of them only list Ne as the pronunciation for 讷. --Neo-Jay (talk) 08:54, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I have no opinion on this one but I would point out by way of comaprison that most print dictionaries don't give the pronunciation of the third character of the Chinese name of Vladivostok (崴) as wǎi but as wēi. — AjaxSmack 04:27, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

We can still find the pronunciation of wǎi for 崴 at Kingsoft's dictionary at 崴 and Teachercn's dictionary at 崴. And the point is: if some Wikipedians want to use a pronunciation different from the dictionary to be the article's name, they must present substantial reliable sources to justify it. Up to now, they have not done so. --Neo-Jay (talk) 06:20, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

My point was that when it comes to people's names, reliabel sources about actual usage is more important than reliable sources about the pronunciation of characters in abstract. There are plenty of sources about her that romanise it as "Li Na" - as I said, any google search will confirm this. I've never heard (in real life) anyone refer to her as "Li Ne", and the majority of sources about her (as opposed to character dictionaries, which are sources about the character rather than about her) use "Li Ne". If Mr Teatime is called "ti-a-ti-meh", who is to argue that "Teatime" is pronounced "tea time"? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 06:44, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

You have not provided any reliable source to prove that majority of sources about her refer to her as Li Na, not Li Ne. It's of course not a reliable source that you've never heard (in real life) anyone refer to her as "Li Ne". How old are you? How often do you talk about 李讷 with other persons in your real life? Please do some serious research before your leave opinions here. And what will any google search confirm? You have not given any result of Google search. Let me give it for you. Search in Google: "Mao Zedong" + "Li Na" = 1,990 results; "Mao Zedong" + "Li Ne" = 1,180 results (please don't forget to add quotation marks when searching). If we omit many unreliable sources in them, the reliable sources pages for each pronunciation are less then 1,000. The difference between the two usages cannot be interpreted as significant. Please only rely on reliable sources when we discuss the actual usage. Xinhua News Agency also refer to 李讷 as Li Ne. At least we can say that, 1st, Li Ne is the right pronunciation according to Chinese dictionary, 2nd, Li Na and Li Ne are both used in actual usage and Li Na is not used much more widely than Li Ne. Then why should we still use Li Na, not Li Ne? Just like why should we use Liu Chan, not Liu Shan, for 刘禅, the son of Liu Bei? --Neo-Jay (talk) 07:23, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but patronising others on the basis of personal characteristics is really low.

I don't deny that the "proper" pronunciation of 讷 is "ne".

However, a dictionary is not a source about the person. I searched 'chairman mao's daughter "Li Na"' on Google and found 738 results. 'chairman mao's daughter "Li Ne" finds only 303 results.

I say again, the pronunciation of a person's name should be whatever is the most common usage. There is no "correct" way to pronounce a name. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 20:53, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree dictionaries are not the best way to determine a person's name's romanisation. But neither is Google hits a reliable test either. I think so far we've found that Xinhua romanised her name as "Li Ne"[5] and China Radio International romanised her name as "Li Na".[6] Now both of these sources are government-owned. What source should we trust over the other, and are there other reliable sources on how her name is romanised? Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 21:07, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

First let me say that at this point I am neutral to the article move. Having said that, however, I seem to be able to find more sources that romanise her name as "Li Na".

• Image at Xinhua's website captions her name as "Li Na" (government-owned source)
• PLA Daily calls her "Li Na" (government-owned source)
• TIME magazine calls her "Li Na"
• The New York Times va Associated Press calls her "Li Na"
• Article by Nicholas D. Kristof (well known China journalist) calls her "Li Na"

Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 21:43, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

• Concede Dear friends, I concede. I found a video interview, in which 李讷 called herself Li Na, and clearly referred to the Analects Part 4 "君子欲讷于言而敏于行" as "na yu yan and min yu xing". Well, although her pronunciation is different from the proper dictionary pronunciation, considering the fact that this is the way she calls herself, I think it's OK to keep the article name as Li Na, not Li Ne. The information on the spelling and pronunciation of her name should be added to the article.--Neo-Jay (talk) 09:03, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

If you already conceded why are you still reverting corrections?JaneGrey 19:32, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I concede not because Na is a valid pronunciation of the Chinese dictionary. On the contrary, Ne is still the only pronunciation in any published Chinese dictionary. I concede only because Na is the way 李讷 calls herself. Thank you for your understanding. --Neo-Jay 19:39, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

A person's pronunciation of their own name is authoritative. Qin Hui is Qin Hui is Qin Hui, no matter how many times you tell him he's wrong and his name is Qin Gui.

The old reading of 讷 is "Na". The modern reading is "Ne". (ref added to article) One really should respect how a historical personality pronounces her own name. Otherwise, you might as well call "Worcestershire sauce" "worse-sest-er-shy-er sauce". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 12:10, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh, it's I that moved Qin Kuai to Qin Hui (Song Dynasty) on 27 October 2007. I know how to pronounce it. And the pronunciation "Hui" is supported by Chinese dictionaries, not just this person's own preference. Does Cihai say 讷 is pronounced Na? If so, please provide its page number. Thanks. --Neo-Jay (talk) 12:16, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

It says the old pronunciation is "Na", and the modern pronunciation is "Ne", or to be exact: （旧读na）. So if you want "dictionary recognition", I would submit that this suffices. But again - a dictionary really has only the most tangential bearing on how a person's name is pronounced - a person's name is pronounced the way they pronounce it. Mao Zedong is pronounced Máo Zédōng]] even if a billion people across the Anglophone world pronounces it as "Mao Zeedong" --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 12:26, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your information. Could you please provide Cihai's page number? Thank you. I want to add the page number to the reference. I agree that the title of the biography article can use the pronunciation pronounced by the subject himself or herself. But it does not follow that we should not provide just an alternative pronunciation in the text. As for Mao Zedong, oh, ironically, Mao cannot speak Mandarin and can only speak Hunan dialect, which is indeed just Mao Zeedong or something like Mao Zeidong. But, you see, the article still is titled under Standard Mandarin. Should we move Mao Zedong to Mao Zeidong per Mao's own pronunciation? --Neo-Jay (talk) 12:47, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

• Since you have agreed to accept "Li Ne" being recorded in this article, I re-added Li Ne as an alternative spelling for this person. Thanks.--Neo-Jay (talk) 08:40, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

• I think the correct pinyin in Putonghua do is Li Ne, but Mao Zedong(then herself) may call her Li Na, coz in Xiangtan dialect we say 讷(Na), for example 木讷 muna. And, another person 贾平凹（Jia Pingwa vs Jia Ping'ao）--刻意 04:50, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

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A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

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Last paragraph / lost in translation?

The last paragraph of the article doesnt make any sense - it mentions 3 different people, all are "he/his". 84.245.121.115 (talk) 12:45, 3 December 2023 (UTC)