Talk:Leslie Feinberg

Gender pronouns

Does Feinberg use these pronouns? If not, such usage is POV. Rick K 07:39, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC)

Here's a relevant quote (from 2003) which may answe[r the question to some extent.

PFLAG - Darn Those New Names and Pronouns

At one point I heard about some new pronouns and thought I would be terribly clever and politically correct using "ze" and "hir" in referring to a transgendered friend mid-transition -- until I was told "No!" Most transgendered people, and perhaps all transsexual persons, identify as one gender or the other; use the pronouns consistent with how they are presenting at the time, or as they prefer. When talking with Leslie Feinberg, noted transgender author, I asked Leslie which pronouns to use. Ze shrugged hir shoulders and said ze didn't care. While these have never been widely used, they ARE handy once in a while.

As I recall, in Trans Liberation: Beyond Pink or Blue., s/he often uses just that - s/he. But I don't have it to hand, so would have to verify that. --David Edgar 08:51, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well, is enough a little visit to hir webpage to know which pronoun Leslie Feinberg likes to use. --Dia^ 22:19, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

While I think it is most accurate to refer to the person as the gender they appear, this article as it is written sounds terrible. I'll not make any changes (yet) but someone should try to come up with something better. If it really comes down to it, we could easily just use male pronouns as they are the closest thing to a nuetral pronoun we have for refering to a person. At very least, the fact that Feinberg identifies as gender neutral should be moved up the article so that it at least provides some reasoning for the format. - Kuzain 19:23, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes

I have actually met Feinburg. From what I remember, s/she uses both neutral and male gendered pronouns to refer to hirself. S/he uses gender neutral pronouns (s/he, hir) in hir novels to identify transgender characters, while any men or women in hir novels are referred to using traditional gender pronouns.

However, I believe although the word is pronounced like "zee", it is written as "s/he". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rglong (talk • contribs) 03:27, 23 January 2007.

The pronoun set ze/hir/hirs (which Feinberg does, in some instances, use) are pronounced zee/hear/hears. But they are written as ze/hir/hir. 76.247.152.99 (talk) 00:07, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Pronouns

Because using standard English pronouns (he and she) are unacceptable to Feinberg apologists and non-standard pronouns (ze, hir) are unacceptable in an encyclopedia, I think this article should try to avoid pronouns in general, as it is now. Just a thought. --75.39.23.117 (talk) 01:14, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Using Feinberg's preferred pronouns is not being an apologist, it's being respectful. But why would ze/hir be any less acceptable than any other set of pronouns? They are nonstandard, yes, but they are grammatically acceptable and socially used. I see no reason to omit pronouns, or to use pronouns other than those Feinberg prefers. 76.247.152.99 (talk) 00:11, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Socially used by whom? And if she is a lesbian how is she transgender?--143.252.80.100 (talk) 22:47, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Leslie used the older definition of transgender: anyone who is gender-nonconforming, including those who transcend or reject gender entirely. It's only relatively recent redefinitions, used primarily by those who are much newer to the LGBT communities, that have excluded butch dykes and drag queens from under the trans umbrella. Looking through articles on WP... you have to go deeper into people's descriptions and sourcing to see what definition they are using. - CorbieV^☊ 21:10, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Pronouns - ze and hir use in article?

There's currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Use_of_non-standard_pronouns_for_trans_people about use of non-standard pronouns in the article. Please join in the discussion there. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 21:45, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

The discussion ended with no clear consensus maybe use gender neutral language? Raquel Baranow (talk) 04:56, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Fuller lede, proper names and dates on books

@Sbilbo5: Why the wholesale revert[1]? The lede right now is too short for WP standards, and I corrected dates as well as clarified some of her positions. What's up? - CorbieV^☊☼ 15:46, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

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Pronouns, in Feinberg's own words

As this has mostly been discussed in the edit summaries, I wanted to make sure it was updated on talk. Pronouns are the most-often changed and reverted aspect of this article. But Feinberg covered this issue pretty thoroughly in the long quote in the article: HERE, specifically about which pronouns she preferred when writing for a general audience. Wikipedia is about as general an audience as you get. Also, Minnie Bruce Pratt, Feinberg's widow, referred to Feinberg with "she/her" pronouns in the official statements released when Feinberg died. Because there are a variety of materials out there, that Feinberg wrote and spoke for differing audiences, it's probably possible to find other materials with other pronouns (such as more informal materials, recorded at smaller events geared for specific audiences). But the quote we've embedded, as well as Pratt's words, seem to be the clearest statements that Feinberg has left us about preferred pronouns, in Feinberg's own words. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 19:31, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

Discussion on how to best prevent edit-warring and unintentional vandalism to prounouns

As there are still edits changing the pronouns I wonder if we should put a hidden HTML comment after the first pronoun, directing people to this. -sche (talk) 21:19, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

If you think it would help. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 01:32, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

I'll try putting that in. It's awkward, but, yeah, it's endless. If it picks up to the degree we're seeing on other articles, this may be another that we'll have to put some degree of protection on. Thanks for keeping a look out. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 21:34, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Two additional approaches: see new section Pronoun usage, which is a legitimate topic of her biography, for which she was a pioneer, and quoted; and also, this edit, which if it garners support, could be used throughout. (Server space is cheap: there is virtually no downside to having 25 occurrences of this template throughout the article.) That should put a stop to it, or nearly. The fact that the wikicode looks a little more squirrely, is actually an advantage here, as it will scare off some drive-by newbies, while making the experienced editors think before they leap. Shall we try it? I see little to be lost by a trial period; we can always revert if it's ineffective. (A global regex edit will change all occurrences at a single stroke.) Mathglot (talk) 09:54, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

And a third approach, which not only locks it up pretty tight, but gives you the option to change *all* the pronouns in the future at a stroke, without touching the article, with a bit o' magic: see this test version (diff) (self-reverted afterward), based on this subpage. Somewhere in all this, there's a solution. Mathglot (talk) 11:03, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Oops, hurrying too much and botched it, most of the pronouns in the reverted test don't work right will have to fix it in the morning. But the principle is there; see WP:SELTRANS for how to do this. Mathglot (talk) 11:12, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

OK, that scary code thing... the one that goes to a subpage.... I'm one of the people here who's allegedly supposed to know how that stuff works, and I found it confusing and a bit overwhelming. (Oh, The thing with "reason" in it is spelled "reaason".) Even though my red pen is starting to glow with the need to fix the spelling, that at least makes more sense. I don't want this vandalized, but I think code that involves a sub-page and learning a new bit of code to edit is not user-friendly enough for what the current definition of WP is (unless we're going to have community consensus to go to things like final versions etc.) This all looks incredibly smart and I really respect the skill that goes into this but... Maybe I'm just old-school here, but I think semi-protection is better than code most editors can't figure out. What do others think? - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 19:19, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Yeah it's scary, but I thought some more aobut it, and actually, I think we shouldn't do the subpage thing, because once it's discovered, it makes it *more* easy to change the pronouns back and forth. (Then again, you could lock down *just* that page, but do we really want to go there? I don't think so...) So I'm leaning more to forgetting the subpage thing (if no one objects, I'll delete it). You didn't comment about the template, though; i.e., this diff. That's live now—just for those two cases&mdsahs;and would be very easy to extend to the entire article, and probably pretty effective. Mathglot (talk) 22:12, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I commented that the "reason" template makes more sense than the subpage, and that it has "reason" misspelled as "reaason" :). Can we fix that typo now or will we bork the function?

As long as we can fix the typo I'm cool with it.

I think we need to avoid any script or function that mass-changes pronouns, as then we could potentially wind up with direct quotes getting altered, along with titles of books and articles, and complex statements like Feinbergs' discussion of variations in pronouns potentially being muddled. Let alone pages where we have direct quotes from people at various points in their lives and we want to respect their words about themselves. We already have enough of a problem with all of this when well-meaning editors charge in with search and replace. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 22:47, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

*If* we went that route (which I’m not recommending) there would be no risk of what you are worrying about. It is not a mass change in that way. Mathglot (talk) 02:48, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Oh I see what you meant, calling it the reason template confused me. Yes we should fix the spelling, and no it won’t break anything or make any difference at all. Mathglot (talk) 03:15, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Spelling fixed. Mathglot (talk) 01:58, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

Since I just saw this (sadly, as a result of someone changing around the HTML comment), I will mention that another possible approach is the one used on Denali, where the name (in key places) is broken up with HTML comments: so, "sh<!-- SEE TALK PAGE -->e". (Are HTML comments visible when using the Visual Editor?) Denali also has a big scary red edit-window banner saying not to change the name, but that might be over-much here. -sche (talk) 23:35, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

If you want to go that route, don’t break it with an html comment, break it as designed in {{typo}}. Mathglot (talk) 02:43, 6 June 2019 (UTC)|

Actually and edit filter with a big scary message is probably a great way to go. Mathglot (talk) 03:26, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Another thing to consider is a FAQ; might help a bit, but the people you really want to reach won’t read it. Mathglot (talk) 04:17, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

@CorbieVreccan and -sche:, I think this edit should stop it for good. At least, the inadvertent ones. Any further occurrences from this point on, would be from someone who can't claim they didn't know, so would merit a {{uw-vandalism1}} warning on their user talk page. If you notice any more, please ping me here. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 09:25, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Stronger measures may be needed. Am thinking of using html-escapes with unicode code points to see if that makes any difference. Mathglot (talk) 01:14, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Amazing, still getting edits, after the Edit filter is in place. I've left messages at two IP talk pages, to see if they'll give feedback on what they are trying to do. It's just not clear to me if this is vandalism, cluelessness, or WP:RGW. I suspect, the latter. If that's the case, the HTML escapes *might* stop it, but I removed them as being too squirrely, as it makes the Wikicode look pretty bizarre locally. However, if that's the only thing that will work, maybe we should consider it. That, or page protection. Mathglot (talk) 09:11, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

I suspect the edits at this point may just be trolls responding to this discussion. However, it would be worth looking at what percent of IP/non-autoconfirmed edits in the last month or two were vandalism vs good, and consider requesting semi-protection for the duration of Pride month. -sche (talk) 20:25, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

What you say makes sense. I left AGF messages for two IPs that changed pronouns after the filter was up, politely asking what they had in mind, but got no response. Maybe we should ask for 3 months of semi-protection? Mathglot (talk) 22:33, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

HTML Escapes

I added HTML escapes in this edit. This clearly makes it harder to edit the article, at least with respect to pronouns and possibly surrounding material, and I won't object to a revert on policy grounds; but it does attempt to address a consensus decision at this article to prevent continuing disruption. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 02:22, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Following the addition of the Filter (see next subsection), the use of escapes no longer seems necessary; so I backed it out. Mathglot (talk) 04:18, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Edit notice

I added an Edit filter edit notice that will appear when an editor clicks the Edit button, to warn editors to use the Talk page first, before attempting to change any pronouns in the article.

Please add your comments about the use of an edit filter notice here. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 02:24, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

I'm still coming up to speed on this myself, and plan to change it to a warn setting, per advice at WP:EF. I'm going to study the use of conditional triggers, to see if it should only be put up when an editor attempts to change a pronoun, and if that's even possible. Will report back here. Mathglot (talk) 02:28, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Warn level isn't warranted, until some number of 'catches' have been logged. Studying conditions now; and in case an admin or Edit filter manager happens to wander by here, I am an expert in Regexes, including positive- and negative lookaround. Mathglot (talk) 02:33, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

• Listed at Wikipedia talk:Edit filter. Mathglot (talk) 22:24, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

@CorbieVreccan and -sche:, interested in your feedback. Have you seen the filter notice, yet? (If not, just click the Edit tab.) Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 22:33, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

• Hi @Mathglot:, just to keep terminology correct, your update is an edit notice not an edit filter. It does display when people edit the page, as opposed to filters that act when someone tries to save something. Edit notices can be useful on single pages, edit filters are rarely deployed for a single page issue. — xaosflux ^Talk 22:38, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

  @Xaosflux:; so my listing notice is in the wrong place! Thanks for letting me know. Mathglot (talk) 22:43, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Since the few pronoun changes that have occurred since it's been up could easily be trolls, I don't know if we can judge whether or not it's working (which would be the main criterion for whether or not to keep it). Glancing at the edit history, it seems like not many edits (excluding edits by the three of us) do anything other than mess with pronouns, which makes the garishness of it seem OK rather than excessive. It might still be a good idea to semi-protect at least until the end of the month, if not for some longer period of time. (Some problem articles, like Paula Denyer, have had to be indefinitely semi-protected.) -sche (talk) 22:45, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

I like it. It's big and scary. I wish it were this simple for some of the others that we're going to have to semi-indef this month. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 22:48, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @-sche: :: I think there might be some statistics somewhere that track people who backed out after viewing the edit notice; if I can figure that out, I'll post how to view those figures. Mathglot (talk) 22:50, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

While I'm looking into that: one thing one can do without any special reports, is look at the pageviews of the Edit notice per some time interval (week, month, whatever) and compare it to the number of edit versions in the history for the article. The first number minus the second is roughly the number of abandoned edits, i.e., the number of times someone decided not to publish a page while editing. (Not sure how multiple page previews before saving affects that.) Otoh, we don't know why they abandoned the edit, so it's still not clear whether the edit notice is responsible for it, although an experiment could be devised to determine whether the content of the edit notice was the reaosn (a blank edit notice). Mathglot (talk) 08:55, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

CorbieVreccan, you've been around this article longer than I have; is it just my imagination, or have things quieted since we installed the edit notice? Or, is everybody just away at pronoun-change summer camp and it will heat up again later? Mathglot (talk) 10:30, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

It seems to be working really well. These things do go in cycles but pronoun patrol tasks are way down. How many articles is this on now? (And I'm intrigued by this summer camp...) - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 18:47, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

CorbieVreccan, Only just this one. Do you think it would be helpful elsewhere? If you can enumerate some articles, I could take alook. But maybe not here, as other articles would be o/t. Either at my Talk page, or perhaps better, at WT:LGBT, linking this discussion; that way the community could have a say.

About camp (since you asked): it's great to see the diversity, with all the kids running around, having a good time. Of course, there are individual differences: some of the kids are very demonstrative, some of them (shockingly) don't agree with their director, Auntie Seedent, some seem quite possessive, or are quite personal and stick to themselves. Others seem very indefinite about what they want, while others ask whestions. But on visiting day, when the Relatives show up, everybody is happy. Mathglot (talk) 23:46, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Maybe most really are at camp, then, as it hasn't been too bad. I think I'll drop by (goes to get multilingual rainbow floats). There are periodic surges at the nonbinary crew's pages. Uh... Rain Dove sometimes, and Indya Moore come to mind, but not lately. We could probably use a list at the project, but I don't think there's any rush. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 00:30, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Corbie and -sche, things seem to have calmed down quite a bit, so either the edit notice has been working, or else people have stopped trying to change pronouns for some other reason. Pageviews have not changed much since the edit notice was added, but I'm not sure if there's a way to see how many times the edit notice was viewed, which would be useful information. Should we try removing the edit notice, or alter it in some way, smaller font, shorter, calmer? Edit notices provide for automatic expiration if you fill out the expiry param, but it's blank, now. Should we add an expiration date? Mathglot (talk) 22:37, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

While I was mulling this over, an IP tried to change the pronouns. I think the data shows that this is an article that just doesn't get a lot of traffic. I think the notice has helped stop the majority of people who would have otherwise changed the pronouns, so I don't think we should remove it. There will always be people who ignore the notices, but it doesn't hurt to try.

I haven't seen much recent pronoun disruption on the other articles I watch. What about you? Are we needing any sort of similar notice for articles that get similar drivebys? If so, I would probably consider smaller/calmer if we're going to be making a new one. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 21:20, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

Cause of death

Should this page address at all that there is good scientific evidence that the stated cause of death for Feinberg, chronic Lyme disease, is not a real disease, therefore the actual nature of Feinberg's illness and death are unknown? 146.115.176.45 (talk) 02:58, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. As it's currently written, it sounds as though hir death was due to a Lyme disease infection going back to the 1970s, when this does not align with modern medical science. Feinberg has been quoted talking about receiving "ILADS care" which likely was in the form of long term antibiotics administration and other dangerous treatments which very well could have been hir actual cause of death. 2601:197:800:8090:E4B6:2C8B:6189:BC4F (talk) 01:54, 11 July 2023 (UTC)