Talk:László Hudec

Ethnicity

László Hudec was slovak he only studied in Budapest and take name Hugyecz. [1]--Vegetator (talk) 16:21, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

i) According to this reliable, neutral third-party source (Wasserstrom, Jeffrey N. (2009). Global Shanghai, 1850-2010: a history in fragments. Routledge. p. 102. ISBN 0415213282, 9780415213288.) he was ethnic Hungarian, so I dont know why do you think that this article is not neutral. ii) He was born in Hungary, studied in Hungary and spoke Hungarian. iii) His first name -László- is of Hungarian origin. iv)In some sources he is mentioned as Czech-Hungarian architect, because the territory where he was born became a part of Czechoslovakia, thus he received czechoslovak citizenship.--B@xter⁹ 17:54, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

ps: "Laszlo Hudec changed his name after coming to Shanghai; it would also be changed later by people writing about him. His student papers show his signature as Hugyecz, a Hungarian name. Obviously, Hudec is easier to spell and pronounce, and is more commonly understood to be a Slovakian name, so he assumed that name in Shanghai. His first name has always been Laszlo. However, it is often seen written as Ladislaus, which is the German version of the name. Hudec was very proud of his past as a citizen and officer of the Austro-Hungarian empire, seeing in it the glory of Hungary, and never relinquished the link that his first name established with his Hungarian heritage, even though he was compelled to change his last name. His family is adamant that he would always prefer Laszlo, even among the German community in Shanghai of which he was nominally a part through his wife's family." (University of Victoria, Special Collections)

Your arguments are misleading (like He was born in Hungary (false), studied in Hungary (true) and spoke Hungarian (so what), and he was born also in Czechoslovakia and therefore he must be czech-hungarian. Hungarian in all posible ways (: ). So, I do a little recherche (not just about Hudec but about similar problems in wikipedia related to hungarian/slovak topics), this is just another nationality theme i dont want to be a part of. Have a nice day and bless you national souls. (btw. article is still prejudicial) --Vegetator (talk) 11:26, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

"Your arguments are misleading (like He was born in Hungary (false)" Dont you think that your arguments are misleading? "born also in Czechoslovakia" He was born in Hungary, in 1893 and not in Czechoslovakia.--B@xter⁹ 14:18, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

He was born in Kingdom of Hungary, just like other milions of non-hungarians, studied there, just like another milions of non-hungarians and spoke hungarian since it was state language, nothing surprising there. Therefore only thing we can do is relie on third-party sources, however according to Architectural Encounters with Essence and Form in Modern China by Peter G. Rowe and Seng Kuan [2] his full name was Laszlo Edward Hudec and he was of Slovak ethnicity (page 58). Than other sources, as you mentioned, says he was either Hungarian or Czech-Hungarian so what we see is yet another person with disputed ethnicity. Splendid. --EllsworthSK (talk) 23:17, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

That source is good, please ad it.--B@xter⁹ 18:52, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Hungarian names for places before 1867

from another talk page: as the official language of the Kingdom of Hungary was Latin until 1867 [3], using Hungarian names for cities etc. before this date is anachronistic. Since the Latin name that was used at the time can scarcely be found, we should list all the places with their modern names.--Bizovne (talk) 14:32, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Co takto si dostudovat trosku tie "hnusne" uhorske dejiny, pocas ktorych sa Madari odbavovali na utlacani ubohych Slovakov?

You might want to get the facts right first when talking about history. Hungarian was made the official language of Hungarian parts of the Austrian Empire (i.e. Hungary) as early as 1844. In either way, why would anyone bring up such topic in connection with an article that deals with a person who's been born WAY after 1867 (i.e. in 1893)? CoolKoon (talk) 16:16, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

User:Bizovne, I have to warn you because you violate several Wikipedia policies. This time WP:HA. You WILL be blocked.--B@xter⁹ 17:24, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Just for the records, the question of the official language was not settled till 1791-92. In the parliament (diéta) they spoke mainly Latin, in the municipalities, and before the tribunals they spoke Hungarian, (in the supreme courts Latin) and in the cities they used German. I can read records from the XVIIth century written in Hungarian. Then the official language of the Hungarian Kingdom became Latin and Hungarian in 1791: the text of the laws must have been written in these two languages. The Corpus Iuris Hungarici, which collects the the laws of the Hungarian Kingdom since 1000 started to use the Hungarian as well in 1790-91, when it publishes the laws. Please consult the 1791:XVI Law on the usage of Hungarian: http://www.1000ev.hu/index.php?a=3&param=4890

--Ltbuni (talk) 12:59, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was not moved. --BDD (talk) 18:13, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

László Hudec → Ladislaus Hudec – Most frequent english form - Google Books ~122[4] vs ~97 "Laszlo Hudec" [5] Wladthemlat (talk) 13:49, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Oppose. First, I mention that just counting search hits can be misleading and it should be backed up by some arguments, too. In this case, if we simply use Google Search, we get ""ladislaus hudec" shanghai" [6] (2,530 English hits) vs. ""laszlo hudec" shanghai" [7] (11,900 English hits), which results show a quite different usage than GB does. In addition to this, i.e., that we should be careful when arguing based on particular search results, I oppose the move since: (1) The difference in the presented Google Books hits are not that significant/overwhelming to justify the move (especially, if we take into account the normal Google Search results). (2) "Lálszó" was his official / birth name (and "Ladislaus" is just its Germanized variant); and even some of those sources which use "Ladislaus" mention that "Lálszó" is the correct form of his name [8]. (3) He himself preferred the version "Lálszó", e.g., "His family is adamant that he would always prefer Laszlo, even among the German community in Shanghai of which he was nominally a part through his wife's family." [9]. Hence, the article should not be moved. Cheers, KœrteFa {ταλκ} 17:23, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Note Google search is unreliable, full of self-published unreliable sources (just tlike the second one you cite [10]), sources that use Wikipedia as a source or just plain mirrors of Wikipedia. Google Books provides more relevant a picture, and I wouldn't call 25% difference in frequency insignificant.

The first source[11] that references his "correct name" not only disputes something we have a direct quote for, it alone also does not determine the predominant English use, which should be the determining factor in article naming. Wladthemlat (talk) 17:56, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

My last source, which you called self-published and unreliable, was made for the Hudec Archive of the University of Victoria, Canada. I think that this makes it a reliable source, not "just" a website. (It was cited earlier on this Talk Page.) I did not get your problem with the first source I have cited. Could you elaborate? Moreover, the predominant English use is just one principle article names should be based on (see WP:TITLE). And, unfortunately, we do not have a predominant English use in this case (based on your GB searches). Also, I doubt that all 11,900 Google Search hits are just unreliable self-published websites. Some of them probably are, but there are likely self-published works among those 2,530 hits which use the name "Ladislaus". Finally, 25% diffrence would be significant, if there were thousands of GB hits, but the difference in absolute numbers is just 25, which could well-be a bias in the GB database (i.e., Google has digitized only a tiny fraction of books written in English, so the sample may not be representative). KœrteFa {ταλκ} 21:10, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Your first source disputes his Slovak origin, which we have a quote for, so i'd take the rest with a grain of salt, that's all. But anyway - we have only limited means of determining prevalent English use, google books being the most reliable one. Simple google search is utterly unreliable, none of us can really tell what the composition of the hits really is, so I would take it with a ton of salt and would not make decisions on it.

Yes, I agree with you that we should not make decision based only on Google searches (but they can provide side information about usage), and I also agree that, in general, Google Books searches are more reliable. However, I think that they are not conclusive in this case. I do not think that [12] tries to deny his Slovak roots, it only claims Laszlo Hudec would rather call himself Hungarian. I am not sure whether it is true, since he himself said that he felt that he was both (Slovak and Hungarian), as "he could not cut himself into half". KœrteFa {ταλκ} 11:57, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Oppose, the difference between the two totals is not so relevant to rename this article. Certainly the next result will be completely different. --Norden1990 (talk) 19:40, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Comment I am pretty unsure. He was half Slovak, half Hungarian (!He stated that he was both!). "Ladislaus" sounds too Slavic to me. However "Laszlo" is a Hungarian name. What if we changed his name to "Leslie Hudec"? Fakirbakir (talk) 12:03, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

If you have the sources to support it, I'm fine with "Chewie". If not, I'd go with what we do have the sources for (Ladislaus) and you should pick your bone with English authors. Also, Ladislaus is the germanized form (i.e. most neutral anyway) and what it sounds to you I wouldn't respectfully call relevant in this debate. Wladthemlat (talk) 12:16, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Ladislaus does not simply sound Slavic but is a Slavic name, it is not my personal opinion. The most neutral choice would be the English form "Leslie". Fakirbakir (talk) 12:47, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

I am afraid that would be original research, unless there were scholarly sources using that name. "Ladislaus" is indeed a German version, the Slav (e.g., Slovak, Polish) variant would be "Ladislav". However, since (i) his official (birth) name was "Laszlo", (ii) he preferred to use this name, and (iii) there are many English sources which use this name => I do not see any reason to change it. And, of course, using the first name "Laszlo" does not deny that he was also ethnic Slovak (on his father's side). KœrteFa {ταλκ} 13:06, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

"Ladislaus" is the German variant of the Slav "Ladislav". It has Slav roots at least. Another thing, we have a note in the article. Originally "Juraj Hudec" is it true or not? If his birth name was Laszlo we will have to remove or correct that note immediately. I am against the name change if his birth name was "Laszlo".Fakirbakir (talk) 13:24, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

"Juraj" was the birth name of his *father*, but later he changed his name to "György". KœrteFa {ταλκ} 13:31, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Oh, thank you. I see. Fakirbakir (talk) 13:40, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Oppose. His name on the birth certificate was "Laszlo". Fakirbakir (talk) 13:41, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

WP:ENGLISH Wladthemlat (talk) 13:47, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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