Talk:Kingdom of Tungning

Article move

This article is in Wade-Giles, shouldn't this article be in Pinyin as the 'Kingdom of Dongning'? Semi-Lobster (talk) 01:06, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Tungning's planned invasions of the Spanish Philippines

• Hung, Ho-fung (Working paper, October 2000). "Maritime Capitalism in Seventeenth-Century China: The Rise and Fall of Koxinga Revisited". IROWS Working Paper # 72 available at irows.ucr.edu/papers/irows72/irows72.htm. University of California-Riverside. Retrieved 22 May 2014. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

The Zheng family's Generals repeatedly suggested and drew up plans for invading the Spanish Philippines and taking it over.

http://irows.ucr.edu/papers/irows72/irows72.htm

Rajmaan (talk) 20:19, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Absolutely, and it shows that while he may have originally been a Ming loyalist, he turned out to be nothing more in the long run than a pirate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.20.195.159 (talk) 09:57, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Predecessor in infobox

Regarding this edit, although Koxingxa professed loyalty to the Southern Ming, the regime he established on Taiwan in 1662 was not a successor to the Southern Ming, who never ruled the place. Kanguole 13:43, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Between Trade and Legitimacy, Maritime and Continent: The Zheng Organization in Seventeenth-Century East Asia

http://escholarship.org/uc/item/133829bz#page-85

Rajmaan (talk) 03:00, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Qing title of Duke granted to the Zhengs

http://books.google.com/books?id=sEYPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA235#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=QkBBAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA65#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=-LQSIvebA-cC&pg=PA596#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=cRXAcZGcpa8C&pg=PA184&dq=haicheng+duke&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0kUGVI3ZD46-ggSO-4DYCw&ved=0CCMQ6wEwAA#v=onepage&q=haicheng%20duke&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ga-5mPOr2-wC&pg=PA27&dq=haicheng+duke&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0kUGVI3ZD46-ggSO-4DYCw&ved=0CC8Q6wEwAg

http://books.google.com/books?id=nEgb15isFZkC&pg=PA94&dq=haicheng+duke&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0kUGVI3ZD46-ggSO-4DYCw&ved=0CDMQ6wEwAw

Page 210

http://books.google.com/books?id=9NFwoBXJC1gC&q=haicheng+duke&dq=haicheng+duke&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6kUGVNzDLpGqggSF24DIAw&ved=0CD0Q6wEwBTgK

Zheng descendants

http://books.google.com/books?id=cRXAcZGcpa8C&pg=PA180#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=GU0cAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA96#v=onepage&q&f=false

Requested move 23 June 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. There seems to be no agreement that the proposed title is the best name and little agreement on other possible titles. The page was moved a little over a year ago in the opposite direction to revert a move in the direction of this request. Since the first stable page name was Kingdom of Tungning, that name should remain until a consensus for one particular title is garnered. (non-admin closure)  Wikipedian Sign Language Paine  07:22, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

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Kingdom of Tungning → Kingdom of Dongning – Not really sure why WP:PINYIN doesn't apply here; this romanization seems quite inconsistent with the articles of major people in this kingdom (Zheng Jing, Zheng Kezang, Zheng Keshuang, Queen Dong etc. are all pinyin romanizations) Ngram seems to prefer Dongning in recent years, [1], although this is complicated by the existence of the city Dongning, Heilongjiang. Timmyshin (talk) 06:36, 23 June 2016 (UTC) --Relisting. Anarchyte (work | talk) 07:17, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

• Support per nom. While varieties of Wade-Giles are used for some Taiwan topics (mainly people who flourished after 1945 — cf. Lien Chan but Lian Heng), this is not one of those cases. —  AjaxSmack  01:09, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

• Other options from the zh WP: Kingdom of Formosa (福爾摩沙王國), Kingdom of Taiwan (台灣王國), Koxinga dynasty (國姓爺王朝). All three obviate the need for pinyin, Wade-Giles, or POJ (for Koxinga's Hokkien), and none of them would encroach on the modern city in Heilongjiang. Hongthay (talk) 01:46, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
  • A couple of those seem a little ORish. Kingdom of Taiwan//Taiwan Kingdom seems to have been used in a few sources. Ditto for Kingdom of Formosa//Formosan Kingdom. Most of the cites for the current title seem to have appeared as a result of Wikipedia's title (i.e. after the mid 2000s). Kingdom of Dongning gets about the same number of hits as the other suggestions you made. Most sources have typically used descriptive phrases rather than a proper state name for the period. After thinking about it, I would suggest/prefer something along the lines of Taiwan under Koxinga dynasty rule (cf. Taiwan under Japanese rule). Chinese Wikipedia uses 明鄭時期 (the "Koxinga Ming Period"?). —  AjaxSmack  02:22, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
    • A number of sources use "Zheng regime" or "Zheng Taiwan", after the family. Kanguole 02:41, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
    • Shorter variation: Taiwan under Zheng rule. Would nicely parallel Taiwan under Qing rule & Taiwan under Japanese rule. If length is an issue, simply Koxinga dynasty. Hongthay (talk) 16:12, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
      • "Zheng" is a bit vague as it is in pinyin (many sources still use "Cheng") and does not match "Koxinga". —  AjaxSmack  14:20, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

• Support. Just "Dongning" would be even better. Dongning Taiwan gets 420 hits on GBooks compared to six for "Kingdom of Dongning" Taiwan. Brother Twisted (talk) 02:35, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
  • I support this per User:Brother Twisted and because the use of "kingdom" in this case is a questionable translation. —  AjaxSmack  14:20, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
    • @Timmyshin and Hongthay: thoughts on this alternative? Jenks24 (talk) 05:01, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
    • Most of the other Wikis are using Tungning...are these following English WP or vice versa? My preference is to keep a legacy form. Move the modern city to Dongning and let this historical entity be, for example, Koxinga dynasty, which calls directly on the original leader, plus it's concise. Dongning can remain in the text of the article and we can put {{about| at the top of Dongning. Hongthay (talk) 05:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Let's try another one...

• 明鄭時期 literally means "Ming's Zheng Period", i.e. the Zheng Period of the Ming Dynasty, which is the most common Chinese name to refer to this kingdom, because the Koxinga's official name of this kingdom was still "Ming", in order to show his loyalty and devotion to the former Ming Dynasty. --Yejianfei (talk) 17:34, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 11 July 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No move. After 16 days, there's no agreement that this is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC over the city. Cúchullain ^t/c 17:53, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

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Kingdom of Tungning → Dongning – and delete the disambiguation page per WP:PINYIN and WP:TWODABS. The city is far less significant. See the above discussion for further details. —  AjaxSmack  14:12, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

• Support. I count eight post-2000 GBook hits for Taiwan "Kingdom of Tungning" compared to 215 for Taiwan Dongning. Brother Twisted (talk) 02:35, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose I counted more Gbook results for Dongning + Heilongjiang (621) than Dongning + Taiwan (410), which tells me the kingdom isn't primary. Timmyshin (talk) 04:16, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
  • The kingdom gets 120 views a day compared to three for the town.[2] If you still think the town is primary, you can put an RM on that page. It's peripheral to the issues in this RM. Brother Twisted (talk) 04:50, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
    • That's even more telling that the kingdom isn't the primary topic for "Dongning". Maybe for Tungning it is. Timmyshin (talk) 08:41, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
      • Huh? The page view stats suggest that 40 times more readers are interested in the kingdom than in the town. If you google Dongning -Wikipedia, nothing about either the town or the kingdom comes up. Gulangyu (talk) 09:48, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
      • Wikipedia views are not helpful in a move request. Of course the views are going to skew towards the name where the article is right now. Google hits is also not a good gauge (WP:GHITS), and we really should be comparing what the relevant sources use. _dk (talk) 08:49, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
        • We seem to have gotten off on a tangent. Does everyone realize that the town of Dongning, Heilongjiang will stay where it is regardless of the outcome of this RM? If you want to make the town primary, that's not something we can do here. It has a population of 205,016, according to the article. In China, anything under 1 million is considered a small town. Whether you like it or not, "Wikipedia article traffic statistics" is a standard way to determine primary topic, according to our guideline. Gulangyu (talk) 09:48, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
          • In China, cities and towns are completely different concepts, whether you like it or not, and Dongning is a city administering 6 towns and 4 townships. GBooks results are not suggesting that the city is primary, but rather that the kingdom is not primary for Dongning, which means Dongning should be a dab page like it is now. Page views are useless when the two articles don't even share a same word in their titles. Tokio is a dab page even though the city Tokyo receives 50 times more traffic than the other "Tokios" combined. Timmyshin (talk) 21:35, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
            • This way of looking at the issue misses the point of titling. The title tells the reader the name of the subject. It follows logically that we should try to move articles to titles that reflect the name of their subject as accurately as possible. If no one has any interest in making the town primary, the proposed move can be made without interfering with any other article.
            • I was looking through the GBook hits. A lot of them are company addresses found in various directories. What's more, I have to wonder if this Lonely Plant hit supports the idea that the town is notable: "This obscure town near the southernmost corner of Heilongjiang is notable for only one thing - a bus connection that can get you to Vladivostok in Siberia."[3]
            • Do you really think page views are likely to change by a factor of 40 if the article is moved? I guarantee you that won't happened. Gulangyu (talk) 03:28, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose per Timmyshin. The kingdom is not primary over the Chinese city, and no evidence has been presented that it is. Furthermore, since there wasn't even a consensus above to move to "Kingdom of Dongning", and that gets precisely six hits on Google, I'm not sure why it would be moved to a variant of that title at all. The current title seems fine.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:21, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Southern Ming and Tungning

I have reverted edits describing Zhu Shugui as ruler of Tungning, and the kingdom as part of the Southern Ming (which most sources describe as ending with the death of the Yongli Emperor in 1662). As these are part of edits across several articles, I have opened a discussion at Talk:Ming dynasty#Southern Ming and Tungning. Kanguole 14:50, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

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Kingdom of Tywan

The references supplied do not support the phrase "Kingdom of Tywan". Indeed one of them (Kang, p. 347) even says:

Although the contemporary Europeans called Zheng Jing the king of Formosa or Tywan (Taiwan), oddly, no books favor the term "Kingdom of Formosa" or "Kingdom of Taiwan" at all.

Earlier in the same article (p. 345), he says that the term "kingdom" came to be applied to the Zheng regime from the mid-2000s. Kanguole 10:18, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Show me that Zheng Jing was defeated by Qing-Dutch in 1664

I cannot find a single link that make such claims. Zheng Jing lasted until 1681 and the Kingdom of Tungning lasted until 1684. This sentence " Zheng Jing's navy defeated a combined Qing-Dutch fleet commanded by Han Banner general Ma Degong in 1664 and Ma was killed in the battle."was way back in 2019. Are you telling me the article had been wrongly added on all this time?.82.36.220.78 (talk) 23:57, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Suspicious flag

No source for the flag is mentioned in the article, and the flag is only mentioned in the infobox. In page for the image file, there is a link to a blog post. The blog post isn't even about the flag in particular, it's about the Presidential Office in Taipei, and the supposed flag is on some sort of information plaque about the historic flags in Taiwan. In any case, not reliable evidence.

A flag with "Zheng" written on it was almost certainly used at some point, but by putting it in the infobox, that's implying that only that design with a red circle on it was used, which we have no reliable evidence for. Mucube (talk • contribs) 01:12, 14 December 2023 (UTC)