Talk:Kayan people (Myanmar)

Untitled

Kayan has siturated in the sharing borthar of Mandalay division, Kayah State, Karen state and Mainly, Shan state as well.

Remarks

I think this article needs some more citations, because it overturns some popular beliefs about these women and their neck rings. I've always believed that they do lengthen the neck, which seems plausible through stretching of the discs/connective tissue, and I've also heard on numerous occasions that a woman would die if her neck were very elongated and the rings were removed. Of course, I don't have citations either, so I'll defer to the writer since he/she seems knowledgeable on the subject. 208.22.45.148 20:38, 10 August 2007 (UTC)sw

I think that would make changing the rings pretty much impossible. The people I heard that from were feminists, and I suspect they had an agenda. Mad Gouki 22:37, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

[This image] shows an x-ray of woman's neck before and after stretching, although I haven't read the full article of [the site I got it from]. Also, further online researching indicates that ring removal doesn't kill them initially but makes it so they have to lay down for life or else risk neck breaking. I lost these website and don't thus can't reflect back how reliable they were. I first read about ring removal deaths in an issue of Ripley's believe it or not. --Is this fact...? 03:15, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I read a book, "From the Land of Green Ghosts", it's a autobiographical novel from the author Pascal Khoo Thwe, who's a Padaung himself. He tells about his grandma who removes her neckrings, she doesn't need to lie down the rest of her life, the women who remove the rings need some rest to adjust the muscles in their necks so they can support the head on their own again. He also says that only women born on certain days are quallified to wear the rings. 85.147.2.51 (talk) 21:23, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

A new link?

A French link: http://www.djparadisetour.com/MaeHongSon/fsecret.html --84.171.89.162 (talk) 17:04, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Wow!

This is the single worst Wikipedia article I've ever read! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.143.87.39 (talk) 07:36, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

It is correct that the coils give some protection...This statement is used twice in the opening of this article, and is it really possible for the neck-rings to give protections from tigers? And even if so, since it obviously isn't the true purpose of the rings, why is it notable? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.10.117.195 (talk) 14:19, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.181.208.117 (talk) 09:09, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

The grammar on this page is terrible. The facts seem a bit...odd. Almost like it was written by someone with an elementary-level grasp of English. Needs to be rewritten. 128.82.58.211 (talk) 11:17, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Tribe or religion

Just came across this article checking out something for my daughter and was interested to note that it refers to Kayan as a tribe - this conflicts with http://www.hottnez.com/giraffe-women-secret-of-neck-rings/ which suggests Karen and Paudung are tribes but Kayan a religion observed by females in those tribes. This area is not a speciality of mine but FWIW thought I would add this into the melting pot. DaveK@BTC (talk) 12:50, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Moving back to Long-Neck Karen

I moved this page back to Kayan, after it had been moved to Long Neck Karen by user Haabet for the bizarre reason that "Kayan is not English". If there is some rule on wikipedia that says all page titles must be in English, then I have never seen it. Furthermore, I find the title "Long Necked Karen" rather insensitive. I respectfully request that if Haabet or anyone else sees a reason to move the page again then they bring it up on this talk page first. Zainker (talk) 22:53, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

• The official of Kayan is Long Neck Karen (a translation from thai). Karen and Kayan and Kayah and Kayaw is the same word, the name of The first ancestress, in dialect. Many groups is Kayan. Kayan is also a town.Haabet 10:55, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Kayan is the term the tribe refers itself as, and they don't speak Thai nor do they hail from Thailand so an English translation of what appears to be a Thai nickname is fairly inappropriate, especially if the members of the tribe in question are likely to take offense because of it. Zainker (talk) 15:27, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
    • The word "Kayan" is dialect of "Karen", many Karen groups refers itself as Kayan (or Kayaw or Kayah), but they are all Karen or because they all are Karen. There homepage recommend: Long-Neck Karen.Haabet 14:48, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
      • What homepage are you talking about? One page, (the first link under external links) specifically states that "You should not call the Kayan either Padaung (this is a Shan term) or Long-Neck Karen. They refer to themselves as Kayan." (Source). Zainker (talk) 04:45, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Additions January 2009

• This information has been added in consultation with the Kayan people and NGO workers with extensive knowledge of Kayans' experience and primary documents.
• Why you should refer to the Kayan as Kayan only
• Different groups acknowledged
• Citation added for rings physical effects
• Current events added
• Information about Kayan religious practices added

John Blundell (talk) 07:44, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

The X-Ray

The X-Ray cited as showing how the ribs and clavicle are deformed over time by the neck rings would appear to be a photoshop job. Unless the subject had a letter "R" continually floating over her shoulder? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.93.239 (talk) 18:22, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

It's standard practice to put a metal "R" (or "L") near the subject being X-rayed so that later you can tell the right (or left) side of the developed image, because there's no way to tell front/back. It's not photo-shopped. Boneyard90 (talk) 21:53, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Confusing names, in need of expert advice

I've been confused by the grouping and names of the Karen tribes. Is the following anthropological grouping (my best attempt at understanding) correct? Are there scholarly sources supporting alternate views?

• The top level grouping is Karen people (also Kayin [rare alternate spelling: Kayen?]) (of Kayin State).

• Red Karen (also Karenni [rare alternate spelling: Kayenni]) is a subgroup of Karen.

• Kayah (of Kayah State, new name for Karenni State) is a subgroup of Red Karen.

• Kayan (Burma) [rare alternate spelling: Kayun]) is another subgroup of Red Karen.

• Padaung (also Kayan Lahwi) (women with neck coil) is a subgroup of Kayan.

(In official Burmase ethnic classification, Kayin and Kayah are two distinct groups.)

I've deleted an unsourced edit (equating Karen, Kayan and Padaung) that introduced confusion.--Palaeovia^talk 11:31, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

It seems that anthropologists consider Karenni a subgroup of Karen, while in official Burmese nomenclature, Karen (Kayin) means "all Karen groups, except Karenni." This means that Karen has two distinct meanings in two contexts: anthropological and governmental-statistical. If this is so, it should be made explicit.--Palaeovia^talk 10:56, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Meaningless text deleted

I deleted the following meaningless or ambiguous text:

Padaung is English and scientific name for the same tribes and their language. But by a starting point in densely populated, in low leveled in Shan states. Opposite the political name "Kayan", which come from the little Kayan Lahwi tribe, who living in hilly parts of Kayah state, on the border to Thailand.

It may be restored after its meaning is clarified, sourced and rephrased in correct English.--Palaeovia^talk 23:27, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Kayan=Padaung

Kayan = Padaung. Kayan is Padaung in Burman and English, but originally is word "Kayan" is Karén in Padaung. Kayan/Padaung. Kayaw/Bré in the same way "Kayaw" is Karén in Bré.Haabet 00:35, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

• Does anyone understand Haabet? Please explain in English, and give sources. Please do not insert incomprehensible text in the article.--Palaeovia^talk 04:25, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

I could be off, but I think he's saying Kayan is the Padaung word for the Karen people, not these people. Though I don't speak Padaung, I know that's not right: the word for Karen is Kayin, not Kayan. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 13:53, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Article name

"Giraffe women"?? Seriously? That sounds so disparaging, patronizing, wrong. Surely they do not call themselves "giraffe women", and I can't imagine a serious textbook on history, culture, or anthropology that would use such a term. Let's figure out the best ethnic term for this group, and use it for the article title. Boneyard90 (talk) 21:57, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

I have cleaned up many ungrammatical, unsourced, and derogatory edits by user: Haabet, and proposed restoring the original title of "Kayan people (Burma)." (see next section)--Palaeovia^talk 00:42, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your hard work on this article! Boneyard90 (talk) 09:04, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

For the record, the following message is found on User Talk:Haabet (see here):

Kayan

I would really appreciate if you left Kayan (Burma) and related articles alone. As far as I know, titles not being English is not a valid reason for a move, especially not if the title you are moving it to is as offensive as "Long Neck Karen".Zainker (talk) 23:07, 20 December 2008 (UTC) (Also see the section above on "Long Neck Karen" move)

User:Haabet has a habit of injecting incomprehensible texts into this article.--Palaeovia^talk 23:45, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

Giraffe women (Burma and Thailand) → Kayan people (Burma) – Current title is inappropriate (article is about an ethnic group, not its women only), nonstandard, and derogatory. Propose to move back to original title Palaeovia^talk 01:37, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Support. This needs to be G6-ed, pronto. We can't use a racial insult as the title of an article about the people who are the target of the insult. The title should be Kayan (Burma). Kauffner (talk) 07:28, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Support, in favor of Kayan (Burma). The present title is derogatory, it should be classified as vandalism, and there should be action taken against the editor who made the move. Boneyard90 (talk) 09:12, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Support move, though I wouldn't classify this as vandalism, it's definitely not the right title. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 13:55, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Comment I don't think this requires an RM discussion - you're basically moving it back to a pre-June 2011 title - away from a derogatory, inappropriate one. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 15:34, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree that there should be no objection to the move. I did not find the right way to seek administrator help for a non-controversial technical move that involves replacing an existing page. I ended up raising the issue this way. Please effect the move immediately.--Palaeovia^talk 16:56, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

OK it plainly couldn't stay where it was, so I've moved it to Kayan Lahwi, which is what he moved it from, and redirected Kayan people (Burma) to Kayah Lahwi. Haabet had been a bit sneaky with edited redirects, so it couldn't just be moved back. If you want it anywhere else, you should be able to move it now. Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:47, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

I appreciate your help. Thanks.--Palaeovia^talk 23:20, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

The article is still misnamed. It is about all six of the Burmese Kayan tribes, not only Kayan Lahwi. Kauffner (talk) 23:46, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

User:Haabet moved this article from Kayan (Burma) to Kayan Lahwi (wrong move) at 19:27, September 12, 2010. Would an administrator restore the title to Kayan (Burma) please?

For the record, the following message is found on User Talk:Haabet (see here):

Kayan

I would really appreciate if you left Kayan (Burma) and related articles alone. As far as I know, titles not being English is not a valid reason for a move, especially not if the title you are moving it to is as offensive as "Long Neck Karen".Zainker (talk) 23:07, 20 December 2008 (UTC) (Also see the section above on "Long Neck Karen" move.)

--Palaeovia^talk 00:00, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

The RM template that was put up earlier stipulates a seven-day voting period. I took the template down so I can G6 this over to Kayan (Burma), if that's OK with you. Kauffner (talk) 00:27, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Certainly. Thanks.--Palaeovia^talk 00:41, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

I suggest that user:Haabet be penalized for disruptive editing as he has just now redirected Kayan (Burma) to Padaung, showing his defiance.--Palaeovia^talk 02:46, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

So Haabet beat me to the empty Kayan (Burma) lemma. That was pretty sneaky. We can all complain here. Kauffner (talk) 07:41, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

• I have blocked Haabet indefinitely. He created that redirect twice within a few hours, after an admin had deleted to allow you guys to move the article. You should be able to move the article now if you are agreed on the title. Elen of the Roads (talk) 12:06, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks to the various administrators and editors. The matter is now resolved satisfactorily.--Palaeovia^talk 13:27, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

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