Talk:Karapapakhs

Untitled

I'm not sure about article name, but these must be at least redirects:

• Karapapakh, Karapapah, Karapapach, Karapapag
• Qarapapakh, Qarapapah, Qarapapach, Qarapapak, Qarapapag
• Garapapag, Garapapakh, Garapapah, Garapapach, Garapapak,
• Terekeme. --Koryakov Yuri (talk) 11:44, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

INFO

1-Words in Turkey;

-Terekeme (In Turkey's Turkish and Azeri Turkish) is the first possible word.

-Karapapak (In Turkey's Turkish) is the second one.

-Garapapah (In field/village of Turkeys and only in spoken Turkish.Be careful at this point that there can not be garapapak or karapapah, because if the people living in field can't say kara.. but gara.. then he/she can't say last k too because of same single reason.In fields of Turkey nearly/generally every k goes to g classically when it is the first letter of the word in question, and similarly last k goes to h.What I mean is that if there is a problem with k, then this problem is fixed and you are to see it every positions of the word so you can't talk about existence of garapapak nor karapapah) is the third.And cant be used here because it is in spoken.

2-Words in Azerbaycan;

-Qarapapaq (in Azerbaycan) is the fourth and last one.They use letter q in written but they say k in spoken.

Finaly, possible shapes are only three theoretically.And both theoretically and practically is only two (terekeme and qarapapaq) one of which is for Turkey and other is for Azerbaycan as I explain below.

3-Fact;

There can not be two different names for a single one nation.True one is Terekeme.Qarapapaq is the name of Terekemes living and being assimilated in Azerbaycan, they prefer like this.So there is no KARAPAPAK, but the word is Turkey Turkish of newly created QARAPAPAQ.

4-Reasons of the true of word Terekeme;

-Meaning of Terekeme comes from root "turk" as it is seen clearly.Old and central asian form of the word "türk" is török.So from törökoman it is today terekeme.

-In Turkey there can't be assimilation (at least) to any Turkic ethnic (like Terekemes), so the word Terekeme can be thought of as not changed.Even, in Turkey they are known as old-Turks or root-Turks.

-Meaning of Karapapak comes from kara(=black) and papak(=name of a kind of fur cap).You can catch only that it is a pure Turkish word because kara and papak are pure Turkish but you can not catch any ethnic meaning.

-Today in Azerbaycan ethnitisity is a problem and being a terekeme is not good.So a new name would be solution like KARAPAPAK.

-Why for name of carpet or rug is Terekeme being used all over the world?Why there is no any Karapapak carpet as a concept?

-Why name of their folk dance is Terekeme?Why there is no any folklore known as Karapapak?

-Same ethnic peoples living in Iran use TEREKEME only.What is reason they dont use KARAPAPAK?

-In Turkish wiki pages terekeme-karapapak problem is classic but subject is being şii or sunni.This shows/proves that Terekemes living in Azerbaycan are under şii-assimilation (but not Türk-assimilation, because they are Türk and the state is Türk)and this is why they sometimes call the Terekemes living in Turkey as "sunni Karapapaks" :)On the other hand the ones living in Iran are under ethnic-assimilation (everytime's türk-pers problem), so they dont wany to forget their original name and continue being Terekeme. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.174.19.25 (talk) 11:31, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Azerbaycan related?

Redirection of Terekeme to the Karapapak is wrong.İf not wrong, then Karapapak page can not be Azerbaycan related!How Azeries are comic.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.248.121.166 (talk) 08:55, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

The information about the religion of Karapapak(Terekeme) is incorrect. Almost all Terekeme practice the Sunni branch of Islam. As a matter of fact this is the main difference between Terekeme and Azeri groups. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.51.169.145 (talk) 00:03, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

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Merge with Terekeme people?

It seems like those two are single group. Opinions? Beshogur (talk) 15:59, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

@LouisAragon: thoughts on redirecting here? Beshogur (talk) 18:39, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

There is a separate section in the Russian Wikipedia article for Terekemes that discusses the distinction between Karapapakhs and Terekemes. According to my understanding, these two appear to be a single group; however, "Karapapakh" was used to refer to the settled portion of the tribe, while "Terekeme" was used to refer to the nomadic portion. Nonetheless, this distinction can be explained in a single article, so I support merging the articles. — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 16:29, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

@Golden: Islam Ansiklopedisi uses them as synonyms. Beshogur (talk) 16:32, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

@Beshogur: Yeah they can be merged for now. They can always, if needed, be split if future entries/books (such as EI3) publish any new information. - LouisAragon (talk) 20:41, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

sources misused

together used to back a false statement including an illogical statement.

1. Indiana University source says ...A minority of the Kurds in Armenia and Azerbaijan and the Turkic Karapapahk tribe in Azerbaijan belong to the heretical ... (in page 132) -> my comment: source is misused.

2 Armeno-American sources says ...Turkicized Kazakhs (Qazzaqs)... (page 50) -> my comment: illogical, because Kazakhs are Turkic. Somebody have this guys phone number and ask him what he means with “Turkicized Turkic“? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Serkan,Kutluoglu (talk • contribs) 19:26, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

Seems someone difficulties reading and adhering to Wikipedia's policies:

• The cited page of Bennigsen & Wimbush (1986) is 127, quote; "A fourth tribe, more differentiated from the mass of Azeris, is the Karapapakhs (estimated at 39,000 in 1926), of Turkmen origin. Part of the Karapapakhs are to be found in the area of Kirovabad, and part are in the Adjar SSR. A certain number of the Karapapakhs are Ali Ilahis, which somewhat hinders their assimilation by the Azeris."
• "Armeno-American sources" -- what's that even supposed to mean?

- LouisAragon (talk) 22:12, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

For the record: so far you have made 4 article edits on Wikipedia. All of them were to change[1]-[2]-[3] and remove[4] sourced content at the Karapapakh page. - LouisAragon (talk) 22:12, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Ok thank you very much for this good citation. But WHY are you mixing these two sources? Do you understand now? Is this so difficult to understand this simple little thing? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Serkan,Kutluoglu (talk • contribs) 00:28, 22 April 2022 (UTC) I suspect you are trying to evade the matter. What is this ANI? Can I complain there? If you would be interested in honest editing you would have corrected the origins of this person; I don't even care his origin. But I think you are lying because you want to keep your "disruptingness" concering the sourcemistreatment. So, tell me, where can I find this ANI?--Serkan,Kutluoglu (talk) 00:29, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm not seeing how the sources are being mistreated here. Bournoutian, whose heritage is of no concern here, does refer to Karapapakhs as "Turkicized Kazakhs (Qazzaqs)" on page 50 of The Khanate of Erevan Under Qajar Rule, 1795-1828 (see here) and as stated above Bennigsen & Wimbush do say they are of Turkmen origin. So there is some ambiguity there, but that is reflective of the sources. - LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 13:01, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, my fault, I didn’t see that the sources were already separated from each other. So take this my point as obsolete.16:25, 22 April 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Serkan,Kutluoglu (talk • contribs)

About the Karapapakh Language

Are you sure there's enough sources to clarify the existence of this language? Because I searched that language on google and can't find information about that language. I was planning to create an article on that language, but couldn't find sources (especially ISO code for this language).

Could anyone help me to find more reliable sources of that language? - 𓆩♡𓆪𝘚𝘦𝘭𝘭𝘦𝘯𝘢𓆩♡𓆪 ・ ︶꒦꒷ 💬・✏️ ꒷꒦︶ 10:48, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

According to Encyclopedia of Language and Linguistics: "The dialect of the Karapapakh 'Black Caps' was spoken between the upper Kura and Arpachay Rivers...". According to Islamic Peoples Of The Soviet Union: "Their language is a dialect of Azerbaidzhani, but even in 1926 hardly any of the Soviet Karapapakhs spoke it." Mellk (talk) 10:52, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Okay then. What's the ISO-639 code of the Karapapakh Language? I may need to know before planning to create the article 𓆩♡𓆪𝘚𝘦𝘭𝘭𝘦𝘯𝘢𓆩♡𓆪 ・ ︶꒦꒷ 💬・✏️ ꒷꒦︶ 10:53, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I do not think there is one. Mellk (talk) 10:56, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Well, I'll be putting "mis" to the language Infobox of the article once I made it, then - 𓆩♡𓆪𝘚𝘦𝘭𝘭𝘦𝘯𝘢𓆩♡𓆪 ・ ︶꒦꒷ 💬・✏️ ꒷꒦︶ 10:58, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Glottolog is kara1470. Mellk (talk) 10:59, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Well, including that. Link is here, but maybe SIL recognizes it as a dialect of Azeri rather than a separate language. - 𓆩♡𓆪𝘚𝘦𝘭𝘭𝘦𝘯𝘢𓆩♡𓆪 ・ ︶꒦꒷ 💬・✏️ ꒷꒦︶ 11:03, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Also, according to the 1926 census, there were only 5 people who declared it as their mother tongue (from what I read on Islamic Peoples Of The Soviet Union). Mellk (talk) 10:58, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I think it already got extinct since the last speakers of that language died (Just like Ubykh in 1992). Maybe It is an extinct language - 𓆩♡𓆪𝘚𝘦𝘭𝘭𝘦𝘯𝘢𓆩♡𓆪 ・ ︶꒦꒷ 💬・✏️ ꒷꒦︶ 11:01, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Maybe Ethnologue mentions something about this in the Azerbaijan report, but I do not have access to this at the moment. Mellk (talk) 11:07, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Ethnologue redirects that to South Azeri (ISO 639:azb) - 𓆩♡𓆪𝘚𝘦𝘭𝘭𝘦𝘯𝘢𓆩♡𓆪 ・ ︶꒦꒷ 💬・✏️ ꒷꒦︶ 11:09, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I see. There is also this but I do not have access to this. There is this where it is mentioned as a dialect (on an archived version of the page). Mellk (talk) 11:13, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Now we can clarify, that the Karapapakh is a dialect of Azeri (Not to be confused with Karakalpak, (ISO 639:kaa)) 𓆩♡𓆪𝘚𝘦𝘭𝘭𝘦𝘯𝘢𓆩♡𓆪 ・ ︶꒦꒷ 💬・✏️ ꒷꒦︶ 11:17, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

There are definitely enough sources for an article. If you wish, I can help you with this article. Mellk (talk) 11:22, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Sure - 𓆩♡𓆪𝘚𝘦𝘭𝘭𝘦𝘯𝘢𓆩♡𓆪 ・ ︶꒦꒷ 💬・✏️ ꒷꒦︶ 12:00, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Articles from other projects may be useful, for example ru:Карапапахский диалект. Mellk (talk) 11:23, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Well, I have to also translate with the corresponding article in Russian, just like what I'm doing with the KTK (Kazakhstan) Article 𓆩♡𓆪𝘚𝘦𝘭𝘭𝘦𝘯𝘢𓆩♡𓆪 ・ ︶꒦꒷ 💬・✏️ ꒷꒦︶ 12:00, 4 November 2024 (UTC)