Talk:Kaine

Primary topic

closing help request user requested an RfC --Ⓩⓟⓟⓘⓧ (talk) 21:05, 12 September 2016 (UTC) - I moved a comic book character named Kaine to Kaine (comic book character) because it did not seem to me that it was the obvious primary. However, 1. kaine continute to direct to the comic book character, and 2. I have failed to write a proper hatnote on the comic book character's page directing readers to this Kaine disambig page.

I also wish to start a discussion here on whether Senator Tim Kaine should be the primary Kaine, but am reluctant to do out of fear that I will mess something else up. with apologies to the ept user who I hope will rescue me here.E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:00, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Request for comment

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Should "Kaine" lead to this disambiguation page? To Senator and Vice-Presidential nominee Tim Kaine? Or to comic book character Kaine?E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:55, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

• (My personal opinion is that Kaine should lead to Tim Kaine. In fact, I thought this so uncontroversial that I am here after redirecting Kaine to Kaine (comic book character), and was reverted.)E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:55, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

  Just figured it needed a consensus first. Also that wouldn't be the proper name title for the fictional character. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 02:18, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

• Make Tim Kaine the primary topic for Kaine. At this time, the VP nominee is clearly the more likely search candidate. To check myself, I googled "Kaine"; the first three pages were all Tim Kaine, except for a link to a metal band named "Kaine" on page 3.--Mojo Hand (talk) 21:21, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

• Clarify support - I continue to support "Kaine" redirecting to Time Kaine; my second choice is "Kaine" redirecting to the disambiguation page. Current status of redirect to the minor comic book character is the worst option, in my opinion.--Mojo Hand (talk) 13:28, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose: Unless Tim Kaine becomes the Vice President of the United States, the top result should link towards Kaine. It is also the reason why Trump does not redirect towards Donald Trump. Yoshiman6464 (talk) 21:50, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

@Yoshiman6464: do you mean that searches on Kaine should like to the comic book character Kaine, or to a disambig page for Kaine? E.M.Gregory (talk) 10:29, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Kaine should remain as Disambiguation page as of now. If Kaine loses, I doubt that people would care to search for him in the future. For example, Palin is a disambiguation page, and not a redirect to 2008 Running Mate Sarah Palin. Yoshiman6464 (talk) 11:43, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

• Support Should lead to Tim Kaine, who is now more notable and most importantly the article most readers are looking for. Of course that could all change after the election or after 4 or 8 years in which case we can revisit the issue. TFD (talk) 21:53, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
• Defer decision until after the election - we're writing an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. No one would argue that Ryan should redirect to Paul Ryan or that Cox should redirect to James M. Cox, a previous vice presidential and presidential candidate, respectively. Promoting the most-important-topic-of-the-week to the prime spot without regard for lasting significance is WP:Recentism. Huon (talk) 22:07, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

  Note however that Cox does not direct to Cox's Orange Pippin; it directs to an disambig page. Note also that it is not 1920. If we decide that Tim Kaine should be primary, we can reconsider that decision in 2112.E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:37, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

• Disambig or Surname. Primary topic is definitely not the rather obscure comic-book character. Either a disambig or a redirect to Tim Kaine would be OK with me. Neutrality^talk 22:16, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

  Note that one option would be a page like Clinton, which is about the surname, but there have been multiple very notable Clintons, the "other" Kaines, less so.E.M.Gregory (talk) 23:40, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

• Comment: I think it's clear that the comic book character is not the primary topic IMO. But I am not sure directing it to a person who has the last name is the best option. Is there anything wrong with it being the disambiguation page title? Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 02:18, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

• comment Nothing "worng" with it, but this is a matter of editorial choice, not a hard and fast rule. Biden directs to Joe Biden, with a hatnote on Joe Biden leading to Biden (disambiguation). Presidents with relatively unique names (Nixon, Eisenhower) seem to follow the Biden pattern. Presidents sharing a surname with other famous people (Roosevelt, Johnson) either follow the Clinton pattern directing to a surname article, or the Kennedy pattern of directing to a disambig article on all thinks called "Kennedy". Note , however, that this question applies far more widely than just to Presidents. Hemingway leads directly directs to Ernest Hemingway, with a hatnote to the disambig page, but Milton leads to the disambig page, not to John Milton. I thought at first that it might be because there are some towns named Milton, (but it's not that simple, because Hemingway, South Carolina). Summing up the question that appears to make Chagall, Cagney, Freud, Travolta, Biden, Wordsworth, Thoreau, Goldwater, Mondale, Abzug direct to the most notable of the notable people of that name, Whereas Milton, Pavlov, Trump, Romney, Dukakis and Clinton go to disambig pages (Pence takes you to Penny,) is a judgment on the part of Wikipedia editors based not on a hard and fast rule, but on our judgment of how well-known the personage is and how notable the other people/things sharing the name are. Biden is probably the closest case, quite a well-known politician, but, as with Kaine, others of this name are few and not nearly as notable.E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:24, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

• Disambig or Surname - Kaine should direct to either a disambiguation page, or to a page describing the surname. Neither the comic book character nor the vice-presidential candidate are primary; the latter particularly not so for international (non-US) readers. - Ryk72 ^'c.s.n.s.' 05:13, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
• Disambig - The comic book character is very obscure. Unlike Obama, I think few people are likely to type "Kaine" when looking for Tim Kaine. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:18, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
• Kaine should be the disambiguation page; Kaine (disambiguation) should redirect to it. There is no primary topic, per WP:RECENTISM, WP:NOTNEWS, and WP:WORLDWIDE. — Gorthian (talk) 07:01, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
  • I have gone ahead and edited the page so that it conforms to MOS:DAB. — Gorthian (talk) 07:27, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
• Comment - Summoned by bot. Support Kaine redirect to Tim Kaine for the time being. Not only is Tim Kaine the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, but the overwhelming majority of readers searching "Kaine" are wanting to read about the VP nominee. This can be changed after the election if need be. Meatsgains (talk) 14:50, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
• Disambig – Acknowledging Tim Kaine's recent popularity due to presidential campaign, however noting that his name is a partial title match so by policy should not even be included in the disambig page… (like John Kerry is not mentioned on the Kerry dab page). In terms of WP:PTOPIC guidelines, the politician matches the "most wanted" criterion but that's only WP:RECENTism; the comics character still dominates according to the long-term significance criterion. Therefore there is no primary topic for the term "Kaine". — JFG ^talk 09:15, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
  • I was sorely tempted to take him off the dab page (he's properly listed on Kaine (surname)), but that would have just flown in the face of this whole RFC, so my better self prevailed. — Gorthian (talk) 01:09, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
• Disambig - This one seems pretty obvious to me. Directing to Tim Kaine seems like it would be an act of WP:RECENTISM. NickCT (talk) 21:43, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
• Disambig or Surname - Seems the fairest and best option. Me-123567-Me (talk) 16:48, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
• Disambiguation is the clearly the only reasonable outcome when there are about 12 articles which use the word. Primary topic has nothing to do with this, plus, primary topics usually change over time. You wouldn't redirect Thatcher to Margaret Thatcher, for instance. Best, FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 14:14, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
• Disambig – As FoCuS said there are about 12 articles, in such a case the primary topic has nothing to do with, and primary may change with time. Anyway the primary topic is not so well-known. For instance, let us consider Obama, in this case too the disambiguation page has more than about 10 pages, but Obama was redirected to Barack Obama directly, because he is a very well known figure and most of the searches are intended for him. Such are not the conditions here, for example, I myself don't know about the comic character. You need not consider my opinion, but searches are not so concentrated to the comic book character. Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk • mail) 07:59, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
• DAB for all the reasons already given. The surname page would also be ok, but it seems to duplicate the information. Argento Surfer (talk) 12:49, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
• Disambiguation I highly doubt people are looking for the comic book character when they search for "Kaine."--Guiletheme (talk) 02:21, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 13 October 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved (to Kaine Parker). (non-admin closure) Red Slash 17:01, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

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• Kaine (disambiguation) → Kaine
• Kaine → Kaine (comics)

– Per the RFC above, there is no primary topic for this dab page, therefore the dab page should reside at Kaine, and Kaine (disambiguation) should be a redirect to it. (This is according to WP:MULTIDABS: "where no topic is primary, the disambiguation page is placed at the base name.") The article on the comic-book character (currently at Kaine) was once named Kaine (comic book character) but, according to established naming conventions, the title disambiguator should be (comics), so the article for the character should be Kaine (comics). — Gorthian (talk) 02:05, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

• Support. I think the comics character should go to Kaine Parker, however. Nohomersryan (talk) 02:23, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
• Support: Reasons mentioned above. I think it would be be better to have Kaine Parker as a redirect, because "Kaine" is his most widespread name and Wiki readers searching for information on Marvel's Kaine might not realise that that is who Kaine Parker is. Similar to how we have Elektra (comics) over Elektra Natchios. DarkKnight2149 02:44, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
• Support Kaine (comics) In ictu oculi (talk) 08:22, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
• Support: both moves appear sensible. PamD 08:54, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
• Support moving the dab page to the base name and the comics character to Kaine Parker. — JFG ^talk 16:12, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
• Support - Logical extension of the RfC above; with no WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, the DAB should reside at the name Kaine. Ambivalent on Kaine (comics) or Kaine Parker. - Ryk72 ^'c.s.n.s.' 00:40, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.