Talk:Kabul, Israel
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I removed stuff sourced to syt.co.il, as it looks not RS ([1] [2] [3] ). Also, if someone has access to the book "Legends of Palestine": please check that Vilnay isn´t just based on Isaac Chelo? Cheers, Huldra (talk) 17:39, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
- Robinson, 1856, p.88 quotes the discredited Carmoly Itinéraires, + a Asher´s Benjamin of Tudela, as sources. See also this, Huldra (talk) 20:16, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
- Found it! The itinerary of Rabbi Benjamin of Tudela. Translated and edited by A. Asher , vol II, p. 428 ("Apparently a photographic reproduction of the 1840-41 edition")
- From this, we see that it is not from Rabbi Benjamin of Tudela, it is in fact an article by a dr Zunz, "On the Geography of Palestine, from Jewish sources". And the Kabul-reference is based on Jichus (59), see p. 429.
- Here is the original, from 1841, The Itinerary of Rabbi Benjamin of Tudela, vol 2, p. 428, which is the page Robinson refers to. Still have not found what "Jichus" refers to. Huldra (talk) 21:36, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
Also, from Vilnay we have "it was a place for Jewish pilgrimage for containing the tombs of the Jewish scholars and philosophers Abraham ibn Ezra, Judah Halevi, and Solomon ibn Gabirol"...but nothing indicate that Solomon ibn Gabirol ever left Spain. Huldra (talk) 21:53, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
- It is Jichus ha-Abot by Uri ben Simeon, 16th century. Camoly's French version of this (p. 453) says "Khabul. Là est enseveli Rabbi Abraham, fils d'Esra, Rabbi lehouda, ha-Lévi Rabbi Salomon ha-Katon, avec qui soit la paix." (The last phrase is just something like "peace be with them".) In footnote 167 on p483, Carmoly identifies Salomon ha-Katon as Solomon ibn Gabirol but cites three different works as saying that he actually died in Valencia. Zerotalk 02:51, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
- I see in some other places that the author of Jichus ha-Abot is unknown. Zerotalk 02:56, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks, in what year (and under what name) was Camoly's French version of this published? Huldra (talk) 22:04, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, it is Carmoly not Camoly. Itinéraires de La Terre Sainte (1847). This is a problem because it is the same book in which his apparently-fake itinerary of Chelo appeared. Röhricht's catalogue lists a 1575 Hebrew edition and a 1659 Latin edition as well as Carmoly, so it least this work really exists. Because of the odor around Carmoly it would be best to find another source, but I don't know any. Still, since it is Carmoly's edition that everyone cites (including Guerin, Robinson, SWP, Clermont-Ganneau and van de Velde) the fact that Carmoly himself doubts the inclusion of Solomon ibn Gabirol means we should leave him out. Incidentally Carmoly says the author was anonymous; I got "Uri ben Simeon" from Röhricht and don't know if that is solid. Zerotalk 00:03, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
- The 1841 dr Zunz article must be based on an earlier Jichus-version than Carmoly's 1847 version, possibly the 1575 Hebrew edition or the 1659 Latin edition.
- I´ll take out the Solomon ibn Gabirol ..that sounds fishy. And *everybody* quoted Carmoly in the 19th century it seems; that does not mean it is correct. But I´ll leave the rest in for the time being. Note that (according to Hütteroth and Abdulfattah) Kabul had a sizeable Jewish population in 1596. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 19:16, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, it is Carmoly not Camoly. Itinéraires de La Terre Sainte (1847). This is a problem because it is the same book in which his apparently-fake itinerary of Chelo appeared. Röhricht's catalogue lists a 1575 Hebrew edition and a 1659 Latin edition as well as Carmoly, so it least this work really exists. Because of the odor around Carmoly it would be best to find another source, but I don't know any. Still, since it is Carmoly's edition that everyone cites (including Guerin, Robinson, SWP, Clermont-Ganneau and van de Velde) the fact that Carmoly himself doubts the inclusion of Solomon ibn Gabirol means we should leave him out. Incidentally Carmoly says the author was anonymous; I got "Uri ben Simeon" from Röhricht and don't know if that is solid. Zerotalk 00:03, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks, in what year (and under what name) was Camoly's French version of this published? Huldra (talk) 22:04, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
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