Talk:K'naan

Prison?

It says that he was in prison in the Wikipedia article, but the article it references as a source does *not* say that.

The source article seems to imply that he spent time with prison, but later clarifies that he considers people lost to prison and deportation to have been problematic for him, so the more likely correct interpretation is that he had trouble dealing with friends in prison in Canada, not that he spent time there himself.

I don't know whether he spent time there or not, but I know that the Article does not state that conclusively. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.113.69.97 (talk) 06:32, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Fixed the page up

The album page is more detailed and this page now has more on his life. Most of it was found on the allmusic.com page on K'Naan and the link is there citing the info.

The picture is also used for a promotional interview thing for his album and that is clairified

and to the person who said we are all rap artists, sure we all are. But you have to be saying something in your music which most of the mainstream artists don't. K'Naan can also sing pretty good himself --FAH1223 10 September 2006 11:15 (UCT)

Clan affiliation

The article stated that K'naan is from the Hawiye clan. At the same time, this was disputed in the Hawiye article, where someone claimed he is Darod. As there is no attribution for either assertion, I am removing the clan affiliation. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:58, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

K'naan is Habar Gidir Hawiye, but his verses have nothing to do with clan politics so it should probably be left out of the article. Ingoman (talk) 17:53, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

K'naan is Habar Gidir Hawiye, His mom is Marehan Darood —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.254.12.146 (talk) 23:03, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, can you cie a souce for this? -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:15, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

pronunciation

is the pronunciation supposed to be English or Somali? If English, is it like Canaan, or does it rhyme with can or con? Right now the IPA is ambiguous. kwami (talk) 08:08, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay, it said (without a reference) "k'naan" means "traveler" in Somali. Kaynaan means travel, migration, so I assume this is what was meant. Can't give the Somali pronunciation, as Somali vowel letters are ambiguous. It could either be /kæinæːn/ or /kɑɪnɑːn/. kwami (talk) 20:20, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if it was correct, but I heard a radio announcer pronounce it as "kuh-NON". -- Gyrofrog (talk) 20:43, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Black musician

Please stop edit warring over this. Yes, he is Somali. He is also black. We have a reference which makes this explicit. If you disagree, find a reliable source that does so, rather than arguing pointlessly. --Haemo (talk) 00:24, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Link (Above) is dead. Has he self-identified this way? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.183.57.148 (talk) 02:10, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

External links

Per WP:EL, the external links section of an article is supposed to contain only the most primary band-specific websites: for most artists, that means their web page, their myspace page if necessary, and almost nothing else.

Links to interviews in individual media outlets may be cited as references, but as they're not primary websites for the topic, they don't belong under external links. Accordingly, I've removed the following links from the external links section:

• K'naan on colonialism in NOW
• K'naan interview in Socialist Review, July/August 2007.
• K'naan interview with Consequence of Sound, August 2008
• K'naan in SPIN's January '09 Issue
• CBC article
• Interview on NPR Music
• K'naan on Democracy Now!
• Exclaim Magazine cover story

These can be readded to the article as references for individual statements, as appropriate, which is why I'm adding them here so that they're still available for consultation — but external links isn't the place for them. Bearcat (talk) 17:43, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

References

Similarly, references are to be added to the article by enclosing the individual citation in ref tags directly after the statement that's being referenced to it, not by simply adding {{cite web}} links directly to the references section of the article. For the same reason, the following have also been removed from the article for the time being and may be readded in proper format as appropriate:

• K'Naan. "Talking back to the Empire: From Mogadishu to Rexdale and back again". Toronto: Now. Retrieved 2008-05-06. {{cite news}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help) K'Naan's opinion article for the Black History Month 2007 issue of Now.
• Akpata, John (6 October 2005). "Side door celebrity". Ottawa XPress. Retrieved 2008-05-04. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
• "K'naan wins Juno". XXL. 5 April 2006. Retrieved 2008-05-04. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
• Yates, Steve. "K'Naan: The rapper from Africa is harder than 50 Cent". Observer Music Monthly. The Guardian. Retrieved 2008-05-04. {{cite news}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
• C, Scott (27 January 2005). "Philosopher king". Montreal Mirror. Retrieved 2008-05-04. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
• Oppenheim, Leonora (2 August 2006). "K'naan: The Dusty Foot Philosopher at Womad 2006". Cool Hunting. Retrieved 2008-05-04. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
• Cornwell, Jane (19 October 2006). "How hip hop's conscience emerged from the river of blood". London, UK: The Daily Telegraph. Retrieved 2008-05-06. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help) K'Naan's performance and workshop activity in the UK, 2006.

- Bearcat (talk) 17:46, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Exclusive Performances?

I'm not sure about calling his performances exclusively electronic. He was on Democracy Now! on August 6 with an acoustic ensemble. http://www.democracynow.org/2009/8/6/somali_canadian_rapper_knaan_on_journey —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.228.36.245 (talk) 13:31, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Canadian?

A person can only be described as Canadian if they hold citizenship, not merel;y residency. Does evidence exist that K'naan is a Canadian citizen? If not he must only be described as a Somoli. 90.213.102.169 (talk) 19:42, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

The CBC lists him as Canadian in a 2007 article which can be found here: http://www.cbc.ca/arts/music/story/2007/03/31/knaan-bbc-award.html?ref=rss

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that if he and his family have been in Canada since 1991, he's probably a Canadian citizen by now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.161.188.51 (talk) 00:41, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

People don't automatically become citizens here in canada. Some people live for decades as permanent residents or even on renewing temporary work visas. Not saying he's not a citizen or that you have to be a citizen to be "Canadian", just pointing it out. Dan Carkner (talk) 02:31, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Granted, but after 20 years the burden of evidence would be on the no-he's-not-a-citizen claim, not the yes-he-is one. Especially when it's coming from an anonymous IP with no prior or subsequent edit record — and who doesn't know how to spell Somali, either. Bearcat (talk) 08:15, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

In any case, if he has citizenship, wouldn't the best way to describe him be "Somali-born Canadian"; since "Somali-Canadian" would imply he was born in Canada from Somali parents? I'm not sure if it's correct, but that's the usage I've seen. MaGnUs was here! (talk) 01:24, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Question

I've posed this question elsewhere before, without getting a response. But given that they're both from Mogadishu, both moved to Toronto right around the same time, have the same last name and even went to the 2009 Polaris gala together, what if any relation is K'naan to Yasmin Warsame? Brother and sister? Cousins? Just two random unrelated people who have a couple of purely coincidental things in common? And how am I the only Wikipedian ever to ask this? Bearcat (talk) 08:22, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Warsame is a very popular last name. Its akin to Smith. They aren't related. Canada took in a lot of Somali refugees during the early 90s, I'm sure there were many Warsames in the bunch. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.111.179.37 (talk) 23:21, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Somalis don't have last names, their "middle" name is their father's name and their "last" name is their paternal grandfather's name. For instance Maxamed Cabdi Ali's son Axmed would be Axmed Maxamed Cabdi, and Axmed Maxamed Cabdi's son Ali would be Ali Axmed Maxamed. This is further confused by the fact that Somalis will often "go by" a nickname, which is put where their patronymics would go. So if Axmed Maxamed Cabdi has a nickname of say, Dheere (Big) then he would be identified as Axmed Dheere (Big Axmed) in addition to his real name. Then of course westerners will make things even more confusing by thinking their first patronymic is their middle name and omitting it, or address them as "Mr Cabdi" in the case of our hypothetical Axmed Maxamed Cabdi. Ingoman (talk) 01:24, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

My Life Is a Movie not in Discography?

I haven't been following this page, so maybe there is a reason for this, but I was just wondering...

Is there a reason why the 2004 Knaan album My Life Is a Movie is not listed on this page, or in the K'naan discography?

Kid Bugs (talk) 12:57, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

ko's dispute

What exactly is the point of listing this "dispute" with ko's? k'naan by all accounts is about a few billion times more popular than ko's. Shouldn't "disputes" with fellow rappers only be mentioned if they're in the same proverbial league? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.111.179.37 (talk) 07:31, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

There is a section in the article titled "Live Performances", I definitely think his appearance in the FIFA opening ceremony should be added. I have to presume that this reached the largest audience who've ever heard him and in more countries than his other live performances. Perhaps this is more important and influential than his Chicago Public Radio appearance that is mentioned, so I don't see why it wouldn't belong. Alovell83 14:16, 12 June 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alovell83 (talk • contribs)

Edits

I've removed a paragraph on Black History Month, as it's sourced in part to an opinionated blog entry (c.f. WP:VER) and is generally trivia since it catalogues mundance, non-notable things such as a workshop K'naan took part in back in 2006. According to Wikipedia:"In popular culture" content, popular culture sections are also reserved for "subjects with broad cultural impact" and "exclusively contain references to the subject in popular culture". However, as popular a musician as K'naan has become over the past few months, it is debatable whether he has yet made a broad cultural impact outside of the narrow field of the pop music hit parade, and it is certain that none of the material in the paragraph in question is drawn from popular culture. Part of the paragraph also attempts to label K'naan as a "Black" musician. However, K'naan is Somali, and Somalis generally do not identify as such ([1]); they also have quite a distinct biohistory ([2]). It could perhaps be argued that K'naan does identify as such; but then again, he identifies as Arab too, having recently participated in the all-Arab Arabesque ethno-cultural awareness festival, the largest Arab showcase of its kind ever held in the US. There is also no shortage of sources identifying him in this way ([3], [4]). So I think, for the sake of WP:NPOV and especially WP:NOTADVOCATE, that it's best to stay away from confusing, inaccurate and/or constraining ethnic labels; a simple "Somali" will suffice. Middayexpress (talk) 02:29, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

While I respect your efforts to separate Somali people from Black people on wiki, I think the "Black Canadian musicians" category should be restored, especially if he self-identifies as Black. If I can find a proper reference for that, I won't hesitate to restore the category. Blackjays1 (talk) 06:33, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Whatever one might believe about the genetic relationship between Somalis and other Africans in principle, it's important to remember that Somalis living in North America are in a very different context than those living in Somalia — one where the visual cue of skin colour itself plays a much more prominent role in defining how you're going to be seen, where you're going to be perceived as belonging, than it would in Saharan Africa (where the majority of people have the same skin colour, so groups distinguish themselves from each other on the basis of religion and ancestral affiliations instead.)

In the North American context, Somali Canadians and Somali Americans are generally seen and accepted as being part of their respective countries' "Black" communities. Somalis living in Somalia may not consider themselves "black", but those living in North America do — because they're living in a minority context, where no amount of protesting that "Somalis aren't black" is going to change the fact that they're still going to be seen as "black", and they're still going to be treated as "black" in all the same damn ways that North American society still treats "blacks" differently than others. Here we have K'naan's own words on the concept of blackness and Black History Month; here we have him being interviewed by AOL's Black Voices blog. Here we have him, in the context of a discussion about immigration and whether Canada is really an equitable society for all of its citizens, referring to himself as black. Here he gets even blunter: "I'm a Somali. I'm a black Muslim immigrant."

So not only are Somalis generally seen as black in the North American context, but K'naan refers to himself as black. Which, to my mind, completely vitiates any objection one could possibly raise to categorizing him in Category:Black Canadian musicians — you really wanna be the one to tell the guy that he doesn't get to decide what ethnocultural labels apply to him? Because I sure as heck don't.

In a nutshell, you simply can't assume that a Somali living in Canada is going to construct his sense of identity in the same way as a Somali living in Somalia would — they're very different cultural contexts, in which people's senses of themselves and their cultural affiliations are going to be formed under very different sets of social pressures and expectations. Bearcat (talk) 08:58, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

BlackJays. I respectfully disagree that I need to, as you suggest, expend any effort separating Somalis from Black people since the two populations are already mutually distinct ([5]), and this is understood by Somalis in general too. As I've indicated above, it could indeed perhaps be argued that K'naan does identify as such. But then again, he identifies to some extent as Arab too, having recently voluntarily participated in the all-Arab Arabesque ethno-cultural awareness festival, the largest Arab showcase of its kind ever held in the US. There is also no shortage of sources identifying him in this way ([6], [7]). Despite K'naan's ties with Arabs and Blacks, however, most Somalis don't actually consider themselves to be either, which is why I suggested a simple "Somali" would suffice instead of the other two terms.

Bearcat: Interesting argument. I agree that context is important. However, what you fail to realize is that Somalis in general do not consider themselves Black, and instead see Black people as distinct (1). This is true of Somalis in the Horn of Africa proper as well as elsewhere in the world, North America included. This is also not something new or that was perhaps brought on by the colonial era; it's how Somalis have always viewed themselves. You indicate that K'naan has referred to himself as "black" a couple of times; this is something I have not denied in my original post. However, I think you misunderstand just what exactly he means by the term "black". K'naan is strictly referring to dark skin color, not to race as a whole (see this for more on the difference between the two), which is what I suspect you are referring to. There are a few Somalis in the diaspora that will refer to themselves as black for the same reason, but they too are more often than not referring to skin color and not to the putative "race". However, as I've pointed out, most Somalis in North America, Europe and elsewhere in the diaspora do not identify in this way either (1). This is actually one major reason why one occasionally hears about racial tensions between Somalis and Blacks on the continent; c.f. 1, 2. Also, Somalis in North America are actually classified in various ways, sometimes by skin color ("black"), sometimes by perceived ethnicity ("Arab"; 1, 2, 3), sometimes by actual ethnicity ("Somali"). Another key point that I don't think you quite understand is just who exactly the Somali people are. To understand this, it's important to first realize that the term "Somali" in an official context refers to both a nationality (a denonym) and an actual ethnic group (an ethnonym; see the People->Nationality & Ethnic groups sections). Contrary to popular belief (which was encouraged by the country's former Socialist regime, but I digress), Somalia is not by any means an ethnically homogeneous nation and never has been; it is multi-ethnic, just like other countries in the Horn region. The country was just named after its dominant ethnic group, the Somalis. So what we have is people that are not actually ethnically Somali often referred to in the media by that term for the simple fact that they also hail from the Somalia region (see, for example, this article on Bantu rappers from Somalia in Baltimore). It's sort of like a citizen of Finland that hails from a minority group in that country being referred to as "Finnish" abroad, when he or she isn't actually ethnically Finnish. This broad usage of the term "Somali" outside of the ethnic group it actually immediately applies to is what has partly led to confusion over just who exactly Somalis are. Another significant factor adding to the confusion is a lack of knowledge (or in some cases, appreciation) for the indigenous Somali clan system. Actual ethnic Somali society is heavily stratified according to occupation and degree of admixture with foreign (read: black) peoples; c.f. 1. So you see, the situation is a lot more complex than most people realize. This is why it's best to just stick with the term "Somali", as that is the most accurate of all. Middayexpress (talk) 01:30, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Interesting read. I agree with Bearcat though, if a man refers to himself as black (and meets the criteria), who are you to tell him that he's not? However, you did bring up a few misconceptions which people in general have about Somalis. Thanks for that. Blackjays1 (talk) 03:25, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

What's the criteria exactly? Please be specific. Middayexpress (talk) 03:33, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

I was referring to racial features (skin color, hair, etc.), but, as you stated, that alone doesn't make someone racially black. Blackjays1 (talk) 13:53, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

I see. However, I did not say anything about racial features. I linked to a book explaining that having dark skin, specifically with regard to Somalis, does not in itself imply any sort of genetic kinship with other dark-skinned people ([8]). I also disagree that K'naan's hair texture is common among Black people; certain mixed-race people, perhaps. The most common type of hair texture found among Black people is closely-cropped, spiraled hair (read this), and K'naan has rather loose curls. From a distance, in certain pictures it sometimes looks like he indeed has kinky hair; but close-up, it's clear he doesn't, neither on his head nor elsewhere ([9]). But let's just say for the sake of argument that he did, due to his facial features and other physical traits, even then he wouldn't more closely resemble the average Black person than, say, a Melanesian would (who aren't actually Black people). So what it really comes down to is how he actually views himself. And that is, as we've seen, manifold and complex. Middayexpress (talk) 22:05, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Somalis typically have loosely curled hair rather than the kinky hair of Black Africans. Personally, I find it surprising that most Somalis don't consider themselves Black. I actually work with a few Somalis, and they'll tell you in a heartbeat that they're Black, but I guess it's just personal preference. Many people wouldn't consider Obama black (because he's mixed), but he has referred to himself as such. You really put things into perspective, thanks again. Blackjays1 (talk) 03:08, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

(break) Aside from the issue of the Black Canadian musician category (which has been asserted by some secondary sources), K'naan has a demonstrably notable association with Black History Month. Instances such as his 2007 article for Now [10], his 2009 feature for MTV are hardly trivial, and various other appearances (the 2006 UK seminar, 2010 Toronto speaking engagement, etc) when taken together indicates that Black History Month is a notable cause of his. There are also some references generally which suggest some Somali participation in Black History Month, thus a willingness in some cases for Somalis to identify with the Black community e.g. Somali films in Toronto, Somali festival in London "in commemoration of the Black History Month". Middayexpress's synthesis therefore is controversial; furthermore, there were no references to a Wikipedia consensus in the matter. Dl2000 (talk) 03:57, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

The conversation has so far been free of any rancor, so let's continue along that vein. That said, I find it odd that you should believe that an article mentioning a Somali film festival in Toronto that perhaps took place during Black History Month in itself means that Somalis to a significant degree identify as black. That, with all due respect, is a bit of a stretch. For one thing, it takes only a few people to organize a film festival, not an ethnic group. No single film festival represents all Somalis, let alone one based in the diaspora (where only a fraction of Somalis actually live). The views associated with that festival are therefore limited to its organizers. Secondly, that blog you linked to indicating that the Somali festival in the UK is associated with Black History Month is unfortunately mistaken. The festival was sponsored by a Somali firm known as Dahabshiil and specifically to promote understanding and cooperation through Somali art and culture exclusively; it's also just one of the many such promotional events that the firm is involved in (1). I also did not deny that there are some Somalis that view themselves as black. In fact, I produced a source explicitly stating that, while there is indeed the odd exception to the rule, most Somalis do not at all identify in this way ([11]). Also, for every Somali event that has anything even tangentially to do with Black History Month or similar events, there are exponentially more associated with the Arab world (Miss Arab World, for instance). So if that's the barometer, it doesn't mean much since Somalis in general don't consider themselves to be Arab either despite their many more and centuries-old ties with the Arab world (c.f. [12]). As for K'naan himself, as I've pointed out before, his self-perception is hardly clear-cut. As you've indicated, he has written an article on Black History Month (which is already cited in the Writings section of this article, by the way), and apparently also participated in a workshop and speech related to the subject (neither of which are by themselves notable events). However, that is not really saying much since, as a national event in many places, Black History Month is also celebrated by many non-blacks, including at events specifically organized for the purpose (c.f. 1, 2). It's true that in a few interviews K'naan has referred to himself as "black", but as I've already indicated, he is only referring to dark skin color, not to the putative "race" that I think you are referring to; c.f. [13]. Most Somalis have dark skin and none that do deny it; they just understand that that by itself doesn't automatically make them or Tamils or other dark-skinned people "Black" in a racial sense ([14]). To claim it does betrays, among other things, a poor understanding of Somali history and clan dynamics, as I explained in an earlier post. K'naan has also voluntarily participated in the Arabesque festival, which is the largest festival of its kind ever held in the States. The festival's sole purpose is to rehabilitate the image of Arab cultures in North America, and K'naan was hand-picked as one of the few artists from the Arab world to take part in it. So it again all comes back to how K'naan views himself, which is, as I said, manifold and complex, whereas the non-controversial and conservative term "Somali" here isn't. Middayexpress (talk) 03:54, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

The only thing that matters here is how K'naan views and identifies and labels himself — and as has already been clearly shown by a ton of valid sources, he views and identifies and labels himself as "Black". How the entire Somali community views its genetic relationship to other African peoples is irrelevant to the question, because K'naan is not the entire Somali community — the only thing relevant in determining whether to label him "Black Canadian" or not is whether he personally chooses to identify himself with that community. The presence of the category on this article does not constitute an assertion about the ethnogenetic relationship between All Somalis and All Other Africans — it doesn't even imply anything more than the fact that within the cultural context in which he actually operates, he personally identifies himself with this particular community, and has both a perfectly legitimate right and a perfectly legitimate reason to do so.

And it also needs to be noted that just yesterday, somebody tried to add him to Category:People of Black African descent. Which is obviously laughable, because completely independently of what you think on the Somali vs. Black question, he's actually from Africa, not just "of African descent" — but it does demonstrate that you can't categorize him on the basis of obscure complexities of history that most people can't be expected to understand. You can only categorize him on the basis of what he says about himself — so if he identifies himself with the Black Canadian community, then his own word on the subject is final and definitive and not up for debate, because it isn't about All Somalis, and it doesn't imply anything about the entire genetic history of the Horn of Africa — it's about how one man named Keinan Abdi Warsame identifies the specific cultural context that he actually spends his actual day-to-day life physically occupying, and nothing more than that.

While it's obviously not wholly independent of "racial" considerations, the fundamental defining characteristic of the category is what specific cultural space the people in question physically inhabit, not what particular strands of DNA they may or may not have wriggling around in the nuclei of their skin cells. And no matter what anybody says about genetics, K'naan is a part of the cultural space known as "Black Canadian", and we cannot pretend that he isn't on the basis of a technicality that's so tangential to the basic core purpose of the category. Bearcat (talk) 22:02, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I understand that is what your argument is and I realize that an IP added that category. I disagree, however, that the Black Canadian musicians category only refers to culture since there are of course many white, East Asian, etc. rappers who haven't been added to the category although they culturally also belong to the Canadian rap scene (e.g. Classified, Chuckie Akenz). As I've already explained, while it's true that in a few interviews K'naan has referred to himself as "black", he is only referring to dark skin color, not to the putative "race" that I think you are referring to. This is why he indicates in this article [15] on colors that: "As a child the colors of this place intrigued me. The sky was sapphire, a leaking sort of blue impregnating the wind, and turning it to a murk of purple hue. Purple is what you get when you mix our exhibitionist blue sky and the fire red earth. The sun was often a beastly yellow, which when sucked down by the dirt produces an orange contrast against the Blackness of our skin. A tangerine moon connived with the thieves in the night..." Most Somalis have dark skin and none that do deny it; they just understand that that by itself doesn't automatically make them or Tamils or other dark-skinned people "Black" in a racial sense [16]. K'naan has also voluntarily participated in the Arabesque festival, which is the largest festival of its kind ever held in the States. The festival's sole purpose is to rehabilitate the image of Arab cultures in North America, and K'naan voluntarily accepted the invitation as one of the few artists from the Arab world to take part in it [17]. So its true that it again all comes back down to how K'naan views himself, which is, as I said, manifold and complex, whereas the non-controversial and conservative term "Somali" of course isn't. Middayexpress (talk) 22:44, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

While there's obviously a fairly high degree of overlap, "culturally belonging to the Canadian rap scene" does not, and never did, equal "culturally belonging to the Black Canadian community". A person can belong to both (e.g. Kardinal Offishall), or "rap but not black" (Classified), or "black but not rap" (Ovid Jackson), or neither (Gordon Lightfoot) — but belonging to "Black Canadian" is a question of skin colour, not a question of hip hop; it's a question of "is this a person who's running the risk of being arrested for DWB if they're driving an expensive car?", not of "does this person have a direct racial-genetic link to the Igbo or the Kpelle or the Xhosa?" We could never force article subjects into DNA testing to verify their genetic makeup without violating WP:NOR anyway.

At its core, it's nothing more than a category for Canadian musicians who are identified, by themselves and others, as Black. It's not a category that requires a DNA sample to be let in the door; the only litmus test required for inclusion is that the person would be physically perceived as being black if they were standing at the corner of King and Yonge in downtown Toronto. How they'd be perceived if they were standing in whatever's left of downtown Mogadishu is irrelevant to the question of where they fit in the Canadian context.

It has nothing to do with red herrings like "there are white rappers too" — the assertion wasn't that he belongs in this category because he makes hip hop. It was that he belongs in this category because he's a dark-skinned person who participates in the cultural community that's defined by the category, is perceived by everyone but a few agenda-driven obsessives as being part of that community, refers to himself as being part of that community, is considered by that community to be one of them, and on and so forth.

he is only referring to dark skin color, not to the putative "race" that I think you are referring to.

You're the one making grand sweeping proclamations about Race here, not me — my whole point has always been that skin colour, more than "race" as such, is the core purpose of the category.

all comes back down to how K'naan views himself, which is, as I said, manifold and complex,

There's nothing particularly complex about it. If he views himself as X, then he belongs in the category for X. I really don't think it could get any simpler or more basic than that. Bearcat (talk) 23:23, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I believe things are getting unnecessarily heated, so let's take a step back and settle down a little. With that said, I don't see where on the Black Canadian musicians category page it is indicated that to be included in it, one must, among other things, "[run] the risk of being arrested for DWB if they're driving an expensive car" or "be physically perceived as being black if they were standing at the corner of King and Yonge in downtown Toronto." By the former statement, you seem to be equating having dark skin with having problems with the law, which is unfortunate, and in my opinion, not particularly relevant to this discussion. But to your larger point that "belonging to "Black Canadian" is a question of skin colour, not a question of hip hop", this is of course not at all the case, since dark skin is hardly exclusive to black people. There are many notable Tamil Canadians with dark skin, for example (Elagu V. Elaguppillai, Manoj David, etc.), but none of them have been added to that category. The category therefore obviously never had anything to do with skin color to begin with, but to the so-called eponymous "race" specifically. Besides skin color, you also suggest that K'naan belongs in this category because he's "in the cultural community that's defined by the category". By this, I take it you mean hip hop, which is precisely why I brought up those many non-black rappers that also participate in the Canadian rap scene i.e. to show that participation in a foreign "black" culture does not necessarily equal being a black person. The same goes for Black History Month, which is a national event in many places and is also celebrated by many non-blacks, including at events specifically organized for the purpose (c.f. 1, 2). You also say that K'naan belongs in this category because he's "perceived by everyone but a few agenda-driven obsessives as being part of that community". This is obviously not the case either since, as I've pointed out before, K'naan is often referred to as "Arab" as well ([18], [19]) and is also viewed as such by many people within that community (such as the organizers of the Arabesque festival that invited him to participate in it). But none of this changes the fact that he is most commonly viewed and labeled as Somali, and that he most immediately views himself as such too. This is why it's best to just stick with that conservative and obvious option rather than controversial labels such as "black" or "Arab". Middayexpress (talk) 02:10, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

If things are getting unnecessarily heated here, it's most likely because you keep beating the same imaginary strawmen over and over again instead of engaging what I'm actually saying.

Firstly: I am not equating blackness with criminal tendencies; I'm simply noting that the phenomenon of police officers sometimes harassing people for Driving While Black does exist, and that Somali drivers are subject to it. A police officer who's engaging in that unfortunate reality is not going to skip past K'naan just because he's Somali rather than Saharan.

Secondly: some Tamil Canadians may have a similar colour of skin to some Africans (but really most of them much more similar in skin colour to other South Asians than to anybody else.) But they aren't perceived as, don't participate in and don't consider themselves to be part of the Black Canadian community. And as I'm about to point out — and not for the first time in this discussion, either — you appear to have a deep misunderstanding of what that community even constitutes in the first place.

Thirdly: as I already pointed out, "the hip hop scene" is not equivalent to "the black community". Of course there are many non-black rappers; there are also many black people who aren't hip hop musicians and/or don't even like the stuff. Which is why I already said that being a hip hop musician has nothing to do with it: he's not part of the black community because he's a rapper, any more than the fact that I went shopping at Target once somehow makes me American. And Category:Canadian rappers is already on the article and not in dispute, so this is just tangential to the discussion anyway. So I'll thank you to stop claiming that I stated that just being a hip hopper automatically makes someone black. The point is, the Black Canadian community (go ahead, click and read) has a complete, thorough and highly developed community and culture and shared experience that encompasses a hell of a lot more than just hip hop music, and K'naan is considered part of that community. He considers himself a part of it, and the larger community considers him to be a part of it. And being a part of the community is not a distinction that gets extended to a non-black person just because he raps.

And finally: when on earth did it become impossible for a person to identify as being more than one thing? When on earth did it become an unresolvable contradiction for a person to identify as "Arab" and "Black"? (A black Muslim? Whoda thunk it, eh?) Identity is a multifaceted thing; a person can identify with several different communities at once. That doesn't mean we avoid identity labels altogether; it means we use all of the ones that are applicable and appropriate. Nobody in this discussion ever said that we can't categorize him as being Arab too; in fact, by virtue of his inclusion in Category:Canadian people of Somali descent, which is a subcategory of Category:Canadian people of Arab descent, he already is categorized that way. So why on earth does it have to be either/or? Why can't he be both?

But the bottom line here, more than anything else, is that your constant repetition of the same inaccurate claims about what I've even said in the first place is beginning to sound very awfully like a broken record, and it's getting tiresome. But have a nice day. Bearcat (talk) 04:53, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I must reiterate at this point that it is possible to disagree without being disagreeable. That said, you are of course welcome to your opinion that Somalis receive the same treatment as blacks from the apparently intolerant police in Canada (which is what you seem to be saying with that allusion to "Driving While Black"). Like I said, though, this is not particularly relevant to this discussion. Moving on, you have repeatedly indicated that this is not about Somalis but about K'naan alone and what he considers himself to be. That's all well and good. However, you then make comments such as Tamils "aren't perceived as, don't participate in and don't consider themselves to be part of the Black Canadian community", which leaves me no choice but to conclude that you are indeed alluding to Somalis as a whole. As I already pointed out in the past though, most Somalis in North America, Europe and elsewhere in the diaspora do not identify in this way either ("[20]"). They are also socially classified in various ways, sometimes by skin color ("black"), sometimes by perceived ethnicity ("Arab"; 1, 2, 3), sometimes by actual ethnicity ("Somali"). Many Tamils also do indeed have skin as dark as most Black Africans (because the term "African" alone encompasses everyone on the continent, not just its black peoples), while not at all being particularly related to the latter. This is precisely why I brought them up in the first place i.e. to show that the Black Canadian category is therefore obviously not just about skin color as you suggested ("belonging to "Black Canadian" is a question of skin colour, not a question of hip hop"), but specifically about race. Many of the people presently included in the category (such as Jarome Iginla) are actually lighter-skinned than many Tamils. But of course, unlike Tamils, these folks have actual Black African ancestry irrespective of their skin color, which is why they've been included in the category in the first place. Like Tamils, though, the dark skin in Somalis is not at all an indication of biological relatedness to black peoples, but rather of evolutionary adaptation to a similar sunny environment ([21]). Furthermore, the only reason why I keep bringing up rap is because you've claimed that K'naan belongs to the Black Canadian community in a cultural context, but you've never really defined what you mean by that. As far as I know, the only real originally "black" culture he participates in with any degree of seriousness is the hip hop one (as do many non-blacks). You link me to the Black Canadian article, but that is filled with histories and cultures that have absolutely nothing to do with K'naan or his background, so I don't see how that makes him culturally Black Canadian. Finally, I never indicated that it was impossible for a person to identify as more than one thing; I've repeatedly indicated that K'naan's self-perception is manifold and complex. Your linking to articles on Omar Epps, Louis Farrakhan, etc. is also out-of-place since those are just Black Muslims (most are converts too), not Muslims that also identify as Arab and have been accepted by that community as such. K'naan's invitation to participate in and involvement with the Arabesque ethno-cultural awareness festival demonstrates the latter, so it's, with all due respect, an inaccurate analogy.

Besides all of this, I've been having a look at the relevant Wikipedia:Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality guideline to see what Wikipedia's actual rulebook has to say about this, and it is quite clear that:

• "neutral terminology is not necessarily the most common term — a term that the person or their cultural group does not accept for themselves is not neutral even if it remains the most widely used term among outsiders. (For example, labels such as "AIDS victim" for an HIV+ person or "Eskimo" for an Inuit are not appropriate terms. When in doubt, err on the side of respect and the right of people to define themselves.)" --Since Somalis generally don't identify as black anyway, this means that one should respect their right to define themselves instead of attempting to impose an extraneous label on them.

• "Categories should not be based on race unless the race has a specific relation to the topic. While a race-specific category could be implemented where race has a specific relation to the topic, the intersection of subcategories of Category:Race are never applied to subcategories of Category:People." --Race has no relation at all to this biographical article on a Somali musician, and, judging by the last phrase, a racial category such as "Black Canadians musicians" probably never should have existed in the first place.

I wish I had consulted the rulebook sooner. It would've saved us both a lot of writing. Middayexpress (talk) 20:01, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I must reiterate at this point that it is possible to disagree without being disagreeable. How right you are. If I find anybody being disagreeable, I'll certainly consider pointing that out to them.

Since Somalis generally don't identify as black anyway, this means that one should respect their right to define themselves instead of attempting to impose an extraneous label on them. How right you are. But since K'naan himself does identify himself as "black", that trumps any other consideration in this matter. This article isn't about all people of Somali heritage on earth; it's about one particular person who does accept and encourage and associate that label for himself, which is the only thing that matters here. And incidentally, that part of the guideline has nothing to do with this matter, because this isn't a question about the neutrality or non-neutrality of a group terminology. That rule is about how categories are named in general, and has nothing to do with a question about whether one particular person fits into a category that is already at its correctly neutral name.

Race has no relation at all to this biographical article on a Somali musician, and, judging by the last phrase, a racial category such as "Black Canadians musicians" probably never should have existed in the first place. For the record, the portion of the WP:CATGRS guideline that's actually applicable here is special subcategories: to wit,

“ For example, LGBT writers are a well-studied biographical category with secondary sources discussing the personal experiences of LGBT writers as a class, unique publishing houses, awards, censorship, a distinctive literary contribution (LGBT literature), and other professional concerns, and therefore Category:LGBT writers is valid. However, gay people in linguistics do not represent a particularly distinct or unique class within their field, so Category:Gay linguists should not be created. For similar reasons, Category:African American musicians is valid, but Category:African American economists should not exist. ”

Oh, and by the way, citing WP:CATGRS at me as a reason against a certain category is a monumentally silly thing to do — I wrote the vast majority of it in the first place, so I'm intimately familiar with what it was meant to allow and what it was meant to disallow. And for the record, I have absolutely no idea what "the intersection of subcategories of Category:Race are never applied to subcategories of Category:People" is supposed to mean (or who added it or when); it bears no relation whatsoever to the way the validity or invalidity of race-based categories is, or ever has been, determined on Wikipedia. The section I cited above is the one that's always been Wikipedia's practice in these matters, and I have never seen even the gestation of a consensus for a different approach than that. I do thank you for citing that, however, because I didn't know that non-consensus change had been made to the guideline's wording. It won't be there much longer, trust me. Bearcat (talk) 09:56, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

As has been repeatedly indicated above, K'naan views himself as many things, not just "black"; and when he uses the term "black", he is referring to color ([22]), not the "race" that the "Black Canadian musicians" category specifically pertains to. But this is all academic anyway since Wikipedia policy is very clear on this issue, as I've already pointed out. The special subcategories sub-section that you linked to above of the relevant Wikipedia:Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality guideline is not the relevant section for this discussion, the latter of which specifically pertains to race. The portions of that sub-section that you have quoted above say nothing about race; they pertain to sexuality and ethnicity (African American ethnicity, specifically: [23]). The Black Canadian musicians category is necessarily a racial category (not a sexuality category or one on ethnicity) because there is no such ethnic group as "Blacks". The latter term pertains to race. which is why it is subsumed under the larger Race category. This is the "intersection of sub-categories of Category:Race" (i.e. "Black") that should "never [be] applied to subcategories of Category:People" (i.e. Musicians or Category:Music people, a sub-category of the People category) that the actually relevant Race sub-section of the policy in question talks about:

"Categories should not be based on race unless the race has a specific relation to the topic. While a race-specific category could be implemented where race has a specific relation to the topic, the intersection of subcategories of Category:Race are never applied to subcategories of Category:People." --Race indeed has no relation at all to this biographical article on a Somali musician, and, judging by the last phrase, a racial category such as "Black Canadians musicians" probably never should have existed in the first place.

The above is what the policy quite clearly stated; that is, until you removed parts of it earlier today. This is unacceptable. You cannot modify actual policy to suit your own arguments in disputes you are presently involved in. I have therefore restored the actual policy on this issue. Middayexpress (talk) 20:33, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

How convenient it must be to decide that "African American" is an ethnicity, and therefore permitted, but "Black Canadian", which is the exact same thing as "African American" except for being located in a Canadian cultural context instead of a U.S. one, is suddenly a "race" instead, and therefore disallowed. That's entirely inconsistent with the purpose and point of WP:CATGRS — which, again, I wrote most of in the first place, so nobody gets to tell me that they know what it means better than I do.

Oh, and incidentally: the Huffington Post piece that you keep pointing to as proof of your assertion that K'naan means "black skin" rather than "racially related to the Saharan African peoples" when he calls himself "black" doesn't assert anything of the sort. It talks about the colour of the sky, the colour of the sun, the colour of the moon, the colour of daylight, the colour of almost everything imaginable except anybody's skin (least of all his own). It says nothing whatsoever about how he identifies himself culturally. It does not say "I have the same skin colour as black people but I'm not a part of the Black Canadian cultural community" — it doesn't touch on the subject of his skin colour or his cultural affiliations at all. So it has no bearing on this discussion, and I don't understand why you keep citing it as if it were some kind of gospel proof of your claim that he doesn't participate in or identify with the Black Canadian community. Bearcat (talk) 02:44, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

I never said anything racial or otherwise about any "Saharan African peoples" (??). I said that while it's true that in a few interviews K'naan has referred to himself as "black", he is only referring to dark skin color, not to any putative "race". This is why he indicates in that article specifically on colors (including his own) that [24]: "As a child the colors of this place intrigued me. The sky was sapphire, a leaking sort of blue impregnating the wind, and turning it to a murk of purple hue. Purple is what you get when you mix our exhibitionist blue sky and the fire red earth. The sun was often a beastly yellow, which when sucked down by the dirt produces an orange contrast against the Blackness of our skin. A tangerine moon connived with the thieves in the night..." You are, however, correct in noting that he says absolutely nothing about belonging to any "Black Canadian" cultural community. But this doesn't really matter anyway since the Black Canadian musicians category is a racial category (not a cultural one), as has already been noted. If it were first and foremost a cultural category, then it wouldn't only include "Blacks" since obviously anyone can participate in a culture; it's the racial (not ethnic) term "Black" that specifically makes it an exclusive race-based category. Furthermore, the actual counterpart to "Black Canadian" is the antiquated term "Black American", not the incumbent term "African American". This is because the latter term refers to one particular ethnicity with no racial terminology attached, while the former, like "Black Canadian", does the opposite. In fact, the entire purpose of changing the name from "Black American" to "African American" was so that African Americans would not be singled out for their race, whereas other American communities (such as Mexican Americans and Irish Americans) were identified by their respective ethnicities; refer to [25]. Besides, if "Black Canadian" were, as you suggest, the exact same thing as "African American", then this conversation never should have taken place to begin with since K'naan, of course, is not the descendant of people who were forcibly brought to North America a couple of centuries ago from West Africa and/or the Mozambique area (like actual African Americans & other New World blacks are). He is a first generation immigrant from Somalia (which is located all the way on the other side of the continent in the Horn region), and from a completely different cultural and biohistorical background to boot. Let's keep things in perspective here. Middayexpress (talk) 20:44, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

SFU concert

curiouser and curiouser: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/arts/music/charity-chief-apologizes-for-verbal-attack-on-knaan-staffer/article1725145/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Worldgirl111 (talk • contribs) 03:54, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

I've added a bit of info about the no show last night, which has led to a twitter war, and some media coverage. I didn't know how to do the notation correctly - so please feel free to correct if you do. I added this earlier today, but it seemed to have disappeared without a trace, so I've re-added it. A few sources (SFU, the Peak) have committed to investigating so there should be more information within a week. It probably won't be indefinitely a notable event, but right now, it certainly is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.82.249.99 (talk) 01:32, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Someone has deleted this section three times in the last day and a half - with no explanation. Please Stop it! If you want to have a discussion - this is the place to do it. Constantly deleting paragraphs is vandalism. Worldgirl111 (talk) 13:35, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I removed it based on Wikipedia policy (WP:NOTNEWS) and Wikipedia:Notability (events). Do we really need to document that a concert was canceled? Will this still be relevant, say, a month from now? I think WP:BLP also applies, and may in fact trump all other concerns. (Meanwhile you may wish to review what is not vandalism.) Thank you, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:02, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

P.S. here's the specific wording from the WP:NOT policy. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:14, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

News reports. Wikipedia considers the enduring notability of persons and events. While news coverage can be useful source material for encyclopedic topics, most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion. For example, routine news reporting on things like announcements, sports, or celebrities is not a sufficient basis for inclusion in the encyclopedia. While including information on recent developments is sometimes appropriate, breaking news should not be emphasized or otherwise treated differently from other information. Timely news subjects not suitable for Wikipedia may be suitable for our sister project Wikinews. See also: Wikipedia:Notability (events)

Added news references. This seems to be becoming more notable, with personal threats, more media coverage. Here it is being taken as notable, particularly since his actions appear to contravene his message - so far no alternative story has been offered by K'naan, though he has been tweeting pretty angrily. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Worldgirl111 (talk • contribs) 20:25, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Now in the Globe and Mail, with much more info: After the Wavin’ Flag comes the wagging fingers for K'naan Marsha Lederman Vancouver— From Friday's Globe and Mail Published Thursday, Sep. 23, 2010 9:42PM EDT Last updated Thursday, Sep. 23, 2010 11:22PM EDT 10 comments Email Print/License Decrease text size Increase text size The Somali-Canadian musician who rose to prominence rapping about the troubles in his African homeland and then superstardom this year with his South Africa World Cup hit Wavin’ Flag is being attacked after pulling out of a fundraising concert to benefit Africa at a Vancouver-area university.

More related to this storyK'naan's song goes global Canadian rapper has official World Cup song Students share stage with rock legend Roger Waters Students organized the concert to mark World Peace Day and raise funds to help girls in Ghana get an education. But the student organizers say they – not K’naan – are to blame for the outcome of Tuesday’s concert.

Simon Fraser University’s I Vision One World (IVOW) club held a day-long series of fundraisers. An evening performance by K’naan was to be the highlight of the day, with the proceeds designated for the charity Direct Assistance Network, which works to fight poverty in Africa.

But after negotiations a couple of hours before K’naan and his band were to take the stage, his management pulled the plug.

The huge success of Wavin’ Flag, has made K’naan, who is based in Toronto, an international sensation. The World Cup hoopla inspired Kayode Fatoba, president of IVOW, and a second-year health sciences student, to ask K’naan to play its show. To Mr. Fatoba’s surprise, K’naan agreed.

Tickets were going for $30 each. But sales fell short of expectations. When K’naan’s management, who had received a down payment, asked for the rest of the agreed-upon fee before the show on Tuesday night, organizers weren’t able to pay.

“We tried to plead, to come to an agreement and maybe renegotiate something,” said Mr. Fatoba, 19. He spoke with K’naan’s tour manager at the concert site, and his manager, Sol Guy, by phone.

After the cancellation, the organizers who announced that the superstar would not appear told the audience they were $5,000 short of K’naan’s $40,000 fee. But on Thursday, they backed away from those figures.

K’naan’s management said that the amount owing was far more substantial: “in excess of 50 per cent short of the financial agreement.”

An SFU spokesperson says the university tried to help that night, offering an undisclosed amount. Concert organizers said K’naan’s management turned down the offer.

Mr. Guy said there was more to it than money. “It wasn’t just the financial issues. There were production issues,” he said, noting there were concerns at the sound check. He said this is the first time in K’naan’s seven-year career that he has pulled out of a performance for such a reason.

“I think [the organizers] really lacked experience. You can’t say just because you’re a charity that you can do no wrong. You have to be professional.”

The second-year students who organized the event say they blame themselves. “It’s our fault,” said Mr. Fatoba. “I don’t blame [K’naan] because at the end of the day, we said we were going to do something and we weren’t able to do it, so that’s the repercussion.

“We should have had some sort of contingency plan,” he continued. “There are a lot of lessons we’ve learned.”

K’naan did not want to speak about the matter on Thursday, according to Mr. Guy. “He’s disappointed. He didn’t want to let people down. But my job is to protect him from a bad environment.”

Mr. Fatoba said he feels no anger toward K’naan. “We were unable to meet the agreement, so no money, no show.”

But the vitriol that has resulted from the cancellation has been intense.

After Mr. Fatoba made the announcement on-stage, Clement Apaak, an SFU alumnus who runs the Direct Assistance Network, took the microphone and gave an angry speech targeting K’naan’s tour manager.

“The truth must be told,” he said to the crowd estimated to be between 700 and 1,000 people. “These guys did a great thing organizing everything and some blond-haired manager thought that she had the right to prevent us from getting to hear K’naan tonight.”

Mr. Guy said the content of the speech was disappointing. “What does the colour of her hair have to do with anything?”

Another speaker urged people to turn up to K’naan’s Vancouver concert this Saturday to voice their displeasure. “I’m gonna be there not as a ticket holder, but as a protester.”

Meanwhile anger against K’naan was exploding on social media sites. “Thanks for screwing over SFU! hope u enjoy the cash” was one message sent on Twitter to K’naan, who responded to the outpouring of anger with several Tweets, including, “The student union, whom I trust meant well ... have been taken for a ride by a charitable sub group. In response, the students are angry.”

Mr. Guy said the rapper is questioning whether taking his anger to Twitter was the right thing to do. “K’naan wears his heart fully on his sleeve. He doesn’t hold his tongue. ... He felt attacked and wanted to defend himself.”

The student organizers are offering refunds to ticket-holders. They say the impact on the fundraising effort is minimal because the money raised from the concert was primarily intended to pay K’naan.

Mr. Guy says he is contractually entitled to ask for all of the money owed, but will not. He hasn’t decided whether to return the down payment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Worldgirl111 (talk • contribs) 06:48, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Arabic rendering of name

The Arabic rendering is put as Kin‘ān (or كنعان) but the Somali alphabet is not the same as English, "Keynaan" in Arabic is Keynān (or قينان).

If it was supposed to be Kin‘ān it would be spelled Kencaan in Somali (ʿayn is spelled with a "c" in Somali). Kin‘ān is the correct Arabic rendering of Kanaan, but his name isn't Kanaan it's Keynaan, which is a Somali word it means Traveller. Ingoman (talk) 01:51, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Case of name

This should be K'NAAN, not K'naan, based on all of the major sources for this artist. I thought K'naan was correct, but after seeing K'NAAN on Last.fm, have checked his name elsewhere and it turns out that it's supposed to be block capitals. See the Google results for his name for evidence of this. Esteffect (talk) 01:36, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Per MOS:TM we're supposed to go by what most reliable sources say, and if there's disagreement then we use standard English formatting. You've linked to a Google search, but for reliable published sources it's really best to use Google News. If you do that, you'll see that all major Canadian newspapers write it as K'naan. I see the Vancouver Sun, The Globe and Mail, the Toronto Star, even The New York Times, all rendering it with lowercase letters. Billboard is a bit of an exception, writing it with a capital K and N followed by lowercase letters subsequently. Paul Erik ^{(talk)(contribs)} 05:22, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Dispute

Should a sentence or two be added about the music issue with Mitt Romney? Milesgilbert (talk) 00:02, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Philanthropy

K'naan is not an anti-piracy advocate as implied by the header "activism". He is a musician who has merely commented a few times in the past on piracy in the Indian Ocean, a transient phenomenon which is pretty much over as made clear on the piracy main page. That material is therefore both undue weight and off-topic. He has, however, supported philanthropic activities that Bono and other people have started. "Philanthropy" is thus the most neutral and accurate header. The old, low-key musical feud between him and another artist should also not be overstated in the header; "musical feuds" is sufficient. Middayexpress (talk) 17:29, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

There is some confusion between use of the term "activism" and "philanthropy". While both are similar, and both may apply to K'naan, philanthropy often implies engaging in charity (alongside promoting a cause), whereas activism generally implies promoting a cause alone. Furthermore, a majority of wikipedia articles seem to prefer the term "activism" over 'philanthropy' in this regard. Your concern that K'naan merely made a statement on piracy, does not offset the fact that the section is (was) called "Activism and views". That was his view on piracy in his homeland. This is why changing it to "philanthropy" deliberately narrows the scope and subject of the section. It seems to be an act of whitewashing to remove any controversial views that the subject (K'naan) may have. This is exactly why "Activism and views" should remain in place of "Philanthropy", because philanthropy insinuates positive connotations whereas activism more neutral/varying connotations; Wikipedia encourages NPOV.

Furthermore, you have made an edit removing the disambiguation header which linked to the Knaanic language page. Any reason for this? Users searching for the above language may indeed accidentally end up on the artist's page (given that "Knaan" redirects here), having the disambig header is relevant and necessary. DA1 (talk) 02:38, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Is there a reason why you removed "Hip Hop" as one of the categories, but kept "alternative hip hop"? As the second's name implies, it is a subset of "hip hop", hence, no reason to delete the former. And please provide some summaries explaining your edits; it is hard for us to make sense without it. I have also reinstated the title of the section "Feud with k-os" which you renamed "Musical disputes"; musical dispute implies creative differences, the section specifically refers to feud ("rap feud" is a common topic on wikipedia articles on rappers). Since there's only one feud (so far), no reason to label the section with a plural and nondescriptive header. DA1 (talk) 02:46, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

I reinstated your removal of the line which mentioned his family's moving to Rexdale. It is cited in multiple references, so I see no reason why you deleted it. You also edited the Personal info section to state that they moved to New York City to "re-join their dad", when the citation says his father had already moved to Toronto by then, and so did your own following line. DA1 (talk) 04:41, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

"Activism and views" seems like a good header. If the subject consistently comments on a topic, we should consider if it is important enough to his image/life to include in the article. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 12:25, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

The Knaanic language hatnote deletion was an error, and has been preserved. That said, the torontolife link indicates that K'naan, his mother and siblings rejoined his father in Toronto; it doesn't specify that the father initially moved to Rexdale, so it shouldn't be implied that that's where they immediately rejoined him. The fact that K'naan lived in Rexdale was nonetheless mentioned. Regarding the piracy material, it is both off-topic and undue. This is a page on a musician, not an anti-piracy activist much less piracy as the header implied. The main quote of that piracy passage is also misattributed to an Al-Jazeera story, which doesn't mention K'naan [26]. Another is a youtube link. The attempts to discuss the dead Indian Ocean piracy phenomenon in the present tense as though it were still a major concern is also highly misleading. Activism likewise denotes actual pro-active actions such as starting/running an NGO, political campaigning, boycotts, rallies, street marches, strikes and sit-ins. K'naan has done none of the above. All he has actually done is support philanthropic initiatives that Bono and other people have launched, so his support for these charities should not be overstated. Further, I renamed the "Feud with k-os" header to "Musical feuds" (not "Musical disputes", as wrongly implied above) since a musical feud is exactly what it is, and an old, low-key feud at that. "Alternative hip hop" is a sub-genre of "hip hop", so linking the two as though they are distinct genres is redundant; the former more immediately describes K'naan's style in that particular genre. Additionally, you replaced K'naan's dad's relocation to New York with a link that doesn't mention that journey. You also erroneously indicated that a young K'naan and his friends narrowly escaped death when playing with a grenade which they had mistaken for a potato, when the link actually states that he alone simply found a grenade that he mistook for a potato in the dirt at his school which he then threw away before it detonated. Lastly, the restructuring of the personal life section was neither neutral nor chronologically accurate. It mentioned the civil war even before his own family and clan background and his idyllic life prior to the start of the conflict. I've fixed that as well accordingly. Middayexpress (talk) 23:01, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

In Osmanya

For the hell of it, here is Keynaan Cabdi Warsame in the Osmanya alphabet: 𐒏𐒗𐒕𐒒𐒛𐒒 𐒋𐒖𐒁𐒆𐒘 𐒓𐒖𐒇𐒈𐒖𐒑𐒗

Cool. Middayexpress (talk) 17:29, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

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Extrapolations (TV series)

Is K'naan the same K'naan who is listed in the credits of Extrapolations (TV series) as the Consulting Producer? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 01:17, 6 August 2023 (UTC)