Talk:Justice for Khojaly

Heavily Biased

This article appears heavily biased towards an Azeri view, and the language is quite strongly suggesting that the conflict leading to this massacre was completely perpetrated by the Armenian side. Further, I find it ridiculous that there are Azeris advocating for this to be called a genocide when they will not recognize the much more extensive genocide of Armenians by the Ottomans in World War I. Therefore, I am putting up a neutrality tag. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.159.55.144 (talk) 17:07, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi 75.159.55.144, please check the sources one by one, you can see that the references are in more than 10 different languages, they are mainly from non-Azerbaijani sources, almost all of them are verifiable. Best, Konullu (talk) 21:42, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Verifiable according to whose standards? Anyone can make a Facebook event and invite 1,000 people. This doesn't make it a reliable source. Neither do Letter to Editors or Blogs. The layout of the article needs a makeover as well. There are 196 countries in the world. Should we make sub-sections for all 196 of them? Let alone provinces, principalities and territories? There are also entire sections directly copied and pasted from various websites like the Justice for Khojaly official website. Proudbolsahye (talk) 00:34, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Unreliable sources and POV

I don't know where to begin.

• Source number 23 that claims "Brutality of the Khojaly Massacre exceeded that of the 1995 Srebrenica Genocide in Bosnia" - is a letter [of a reader] to an editor by a certain "Sumer Aygen".
• Source number 24 that claims "It is considered one of the worst genocides in the 20th century" - is a post by a certain username "südkaukasus2" made to have the German government recognize the massacre as genocide. The German governments official website allows anybody to voice their opinions on government policy. You can do it yourself too if you'd like.
• The word brutal/brutality was used three times in one paragraph. Some even stating "outrageous brutality" As far as I know, this very same paragraph was copied and pasted into at least 3 articles.
• There are words like "totally exterminated"
• YouTube videos are used as sources (#'s: 16, 26, 55, 73, 94, 99, 111, 123). BashTube is used as a source (119)
• Facebook is used as sources (#'s: 5, 48, 54, 81)
• Blogs are used as sources (#'s: 60)
• More than half of the sources are not third party sources.

This whole article is one big copyright violation:

• The entire Aims section is copied and pasted from the Justiceforkhojaly.org website thus signifying copyright infringement.
• The entire Songs section is copied and pasted from this website.
• The entire Germany, Austria, Argentina, Denmark, (and so much more) sections is copied and pasted from this website.
• The entire France section is copied and pasted from 2 different websites: [1][2]
• The entire Sweden section is copied and pasted from [3]
• The entire Russia section is copied and pasted from [4] and [5]

I can go on and on. This was probably one of the worst POV editing I have seen. This article must be deleted. Proudbolsahye (talk) 22:15, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

What is the point of this article? It talks about protests that have been held in other countries, which is nonsense. It talks about recognition, which the official khojaly article also mentions. It talks about the events that took place, only mentioning the Azeri version, which also can be found on the khojaly article. So what is the point to have this page? There is no page about protests held for the Armenian Genocide, none for the Holocaust, what is the point to have this? Ninetoyadome (talk) 23:37, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Ninetoyadome, there are lots of articles on similar topics. Just one example: "The Days of Remembrance of the Victims of the Holocaust (DRVH) is an annual 8-day period designated by the United States Congress for civic commemorations and special educational programs that help citizens remember and draw lessons from the Holocaust." Best, Konullu (talk) 13:39, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Can you explain the unreliable sources and POV that Proudbolsahye is talking about? You just seemed to completely ignore his post. Ninetoyadome (talk) 19:03, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Dear Proudbolsahye, this article is not ideal - in fact, none of the articles in Wikipedia is ideal. While most of the contribution in this article is done by me, I am not responsible for all article, others contributed to it as well:

* Regarding your comment about using Youtube, Facebook as references, I put separate sections below, you can refer to them. The same applies to blogs and other self-published sources;

* There might be wording, paraphrasing issues, let's work on it, if you think some of then can be done better, then please improve those sentences or parts, this article is not in my monopoly;

* Regarding the third-party sources, let's be honest. This article includes lots of references written in more than 10 languages, published in more than 15 countries and they are not in minority. There are lots of articles in Wikipedia which don't have this kind of diversity. Best, Konullu (talk) 18:44, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

* I am not willing to work on an article that shouldn't even exist due to a recent blanking of the article by an admin. Proudbolsahye (talk) 19:44, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Links to YouTube videos

According to WP Guidelines, there is no blanket ban on linking to YouTube or other user-submitted video sites, as long as the links abide by the guidelines on this page (see Restrictions on linking and Links normally to be avoided). All of the videos sourcing Youtube meets these requirements. Best, Konullu (talk) 13:51, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Almost all of the YouTube videos DO NOT meet the criteria for reliable sources. I haven't even reviewed all of the Youtube sources but just a quick glance was enough. Source #113 is a YouTube video that says 300,000 people participated in the march. ANYONE can make a Youtube video that says 300,000 people participated in ANY march. Source #79 is supposed to be a Youtube video that was translated in Hungarian when in fact its a 11 minute video all in English. What does a Youtube video translated into Hungarian have to do with the Justice for Khojaly campaign anyways? Theres just so much more. All 145 sources need to be seriously examined. This article has major problems and needs to be copy edited to fit Wikipedia guideline standards. Proudbolsahye (talk) 00:32, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Dear Proudbolsahye, feel free to examine them, I am open to this. If you see some points needs to be improved, deleted, corrected, let's discuss here first. Thanks. Best, Konullu (talk) 18:20, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Links to Facebook

The links to FB pages in this article meets WP requirements:

• As an external link: N Generally no. Regular websites are strongly preferred, but exceptions are made for official links when the subject of the article has no other Web presence.
• As a reliable source: * Sometimes. The official page of a subject may be used as a self-published, primary source, but only if it can be authenticated as belonging to the subject. (See Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published sources.)
• Common issues: Wikipedia is not a directory of any subject's complete web presence, and links to social networking sites (other than official links) are discouraged (ELNO #10). Facebook is particularly discouraged as viewing the page sometimes requires registration (ELNO #6). Facebook and Myspace pages (other than official links) could be characterized as fansites (ELNO #11). Be wary of fakes.

Konullu (talk) 16:55, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Are you seriously trying to justify FACEBOOK EVENTS as reliable sources? None of these Facebook pages are official pages of the subject. Proudbolsahye (talk) 18:48, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi Proudbolsahye,

1. There is no clear statement that Facebook event is not reliable source. It is common sense: if article includes info about commemoration events, organizers created event on Facebook to send more invitations and check RSVP easily, then we can give reference to that Facebook event besides the article from newspaper, web-site, TV, etc. In most cases the links to Facebook events are supplementary sources in the article;
2. I think you ignore that I put the link to the official Facebook page of the campaign as well. Best, Konullu (talk) 18:30, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Contested deletion

This page should not be speedy deleted as an unambiguous copyright infringement, because it is not entirely copied from another site. Any copyright infringement could be deleted, but the rest must remain, as long as it is in line with the Wikipedia guidelines about sourcing. --Grandmaster 20:47, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

I have reverted the page back to a redirect and put in a request at WP:RPP. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 23:44, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

I think the best way would be an AFD to form the consensus whether this article should exist. Grandmaster 00:03, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

The page was originally a redirect to Khojaly Massacre, Grandmaster, not a standalone article. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 00:55, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

So what? Does it mean that it has to remain a redirect forever? I think a standard practice of AFD needs to be followed if someone believes that an article needs to be deleted. Grandmaster 09:57, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

I reverted the article back, edited the parts copied directly from other sources. Please, first, discuss before deleting this long article with lots of third-party references. Best, Alismayilov (talk) 09:50, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Reverted back

I reverted back, because it was redirected to different article which was removing whole content of this article. It can be done ONLY after discussion and community consensus. Alismayilov (talk) 08:42, 2 March 2013 (UTC)