Talk:Jason Pramas

BLP

Thanks to Joe Decker for providing sources.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 07:46, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

You all could have just asked me to fix this entry, rather than getting it deleted and then forcing me to figure that out on my own and ask Joe to rescue it. Naturally, I can source everything in the original version. Most sources are digital, one or two may have to be digitized and archived somewhere first. jpramas (talk) 23:07, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Self promotion along with writing an article about yourself is highly discouraged

It's inappropriate for editors to write articles about themselves, Jason. NPOV is impossible. Pjefts (talk) 01:15, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

I didn't write the original article. And there aren't exactly people lining up to document the activities of American left-wing public figures at the moment. Mostly we get disappeared from popular discourse in a variety of ways. So if I hadn't corrected the piece and kept it up-to-date occasionally - who was going to do it? Editors here couldn't even be bothered to find some very obvious cites on me and bring it up to their preferred standards in the rush to excise the piece. jpramas (talk) 01:54, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Neither is it appropriate to edit an article about yourself. Pjefts (talk) 03:17, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Then you and other interested editors have their work cut out for them. Your having issues with the way the article was edited doesn't relieve you of the responsibility to help fix it if you're serious about being an encyclopedist. jpramas (talk) 04:05, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Hi Jason,

Please stop attacks on the good faith of editors.

I removed undocumented assertions, per our BLP policy, whose primary objective is to protect subjects (and whose secondary objective is to protect WP). Please review the BLP policy and its discussion of autobiographical issues.

Briefly, it is usually advisable to suggest changes on the talk page rather than to add material on your own article.

Sincerely,  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 07:49, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Debate is not attack. Especially when the NPOV and BLP policies - which I am quite well aware of, thank you - lead to editors taking casual shots (as above with the "self promotion" comment) at the good faith of living people who interact with their own bios in any way. Despite the fact that subjects are often "their own best experts," to paraphrase American civil rights and feminist movement thinkers, and possess primary source material about their own work that other researchers do not yet (and may never) have access to without doing proper scholarship - including, as it quite typical among historians, social scientists, and encyclopediaists alike, interviewing the subject or subjects in question on their own lives and works.

In any case, unpaid volunteer editors - many of whom are anonymous or semi-anonymous - do not hold the ethical or intellectual high ground merely by dint of their participation in the Wikipedia project. And subjects like myself have every right to question their actions - and I say this as someone who occasionally edits articles here. After all, who "watches the watchers?" Who holds the editors, administrators and staffers accountable?

I recognize there are safeguards built into the Wikipedia system to prevent arbitrary and capricious edits from being made on articles, and availed myself of one such to rescue this article, but these are commonly understood as flawed systems at best. My own experience with this bio article is a case in point. Given that, for example, I am a public figure on the political left, and by default have enemies, what's to stop them from moving to delete this article on BLP and/or NPOV grounds without ever admitting their conflict of interest in doing so? If all parties to this particular dispute were completely out in the open, and could demonstrate their qualifications to make edits on a bio like this in the first place - and *their* relative neutrality - then I'd have less cause to be critical. But as it stands that is not the case, and is unlikely to be the case within the existing Wikipedia structure.

Therefore, although I am indeed recusing myself from further edits on this article, I am absolutely not recusing myself from participation on this talk page, and will defend it against questionable edits and/or attempts at deletion.

jpramas (talk) 14:00, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

There was additional constructive discussion at the talk page of Jpramas. (I indented and introduced the paragraph breaks in JP's reply, to help other readers with poor eyes.)  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:56, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

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