Talk:James E. Pepper

Claims about sealing of bottles and 1890 change of law

The article says "Before the changes in the law [in 1890], distillers could only sell their whiskey by the barrel, and if their product was bottled it was because whoever purchased the barrel from the distillery did the bottling." This seems dubious when considering the history of George Garvin Brown and the Old Forester brand, which is claimed to have been "the first bourbon sold exclusively in sealed bottles" and to have entered the market 20 years earlier. The article also seems to credit Pepper with the idea of sealing bottles with a tamper-evident seal to guarantee a lack of adulteration, and with advertising to make consumers wary of buying bottles that weren't properly sealed. Roughly the same claim is also made for Old Forester, which – again – entered the marked 20 years earlier. —BarrelProof (talk) 20:14, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

James E. Pepper was a distiller and operated a distillery. The Old Forester label was produced by rectifiers. The law in Kentucky prohibited DISTILLERS from bottling their own whiskey, not rectifiers, therefore it is not contradictory to state that Old Forester was the first bottled bourbon in Kentucky and at the same time James E. Pepper was the first DISTILLERY bottled bourbon in Kentucky. The research and citation for the history of the Pepper distillery and James E. Pepper in this regard and on the JEP page was provided by Michael Veach, a prominent Kentucky whiskey historian.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Amirpeay (talk • contribs) 12:09, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for the information. So your distinction is about whether the bottling was performed by the distiller or by a third party, not a matter of whether a brand was sold in bottles or not. I think I get that, but now let's talk about whether the idea of sealing a bottle with a label was new. That is an entirely different subject. You removed a {{dubious}} tag on the statement that Pepper "introduced the idea of a strip stamp with his signature on it to go across the cork, sealing the bottle". The article seems to be claiming that no one had sold whiskey in bottles with seals before. But didn't Old Forester use similar strip seals decades earlier? (Also, you actually deleted the record of Veach authoring the cited article; I guess that was just a mistake.) —BarrelProof (talk) 02:53, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Please see, for example, this source: American Whiskey: Annual Filson Historic Society Fundraiser – Old Forester Bourbon – A Taste of Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow, EllenJaye.com, August 24, 2006. It says "What Brown did in creating their Old Forrester brand was to package it in glass bottles, sealed at the distillery. There was really nothing new about that; several distillers and marketers sold whiskey that way. As Chuck emphasizes, the difference was that Old Forrester was packaged exclusively in distillery-sealed bottles. Thus ensuring against any tampering with the product's integrity. If the seal was intact, and the label said "Old Forrester", the customer knew it was as pure as when it left the hands of the Brown brothers. ... Brown then took that professional approval directly to beverage alcohol consumers in the marketing and advertising of his product." This points to three key elements attributed to the Old Forester brand: 1) exclusive availability as a pre-bottled product, 2) using a seal on the bottle, and 3) advertising the sealing of the bottles. Note also that this says the bottles were "sealed at the distillery". —BarrelProof (talk) 14:30, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Also, about the date when the previous Pepper brand went off the market, you changed the date from 1958 to 1961. But your company's website (on the About Us → Brand & Distillery page) says the brand was "initially produced during the American Revolution and continued through 1958". Can you point me to some source of information that says 1961 instead of 1958? Also, can you confirm that your distillery is currently operating under the registration number DSP-KY-5? I have run across some other sources that identify that registration number with some different distilleries – but perhaps those other distilleries are defunct and the number has been reassigned. —BarrelProof (talk) 03:24, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Note also that the National Register of Historic Places registration form says "The Pepper distillery operated until 1958, when it closed on-site production." —BarrelProof (talk) 14:54, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Hello. To follow up on our other thread, I am having problems emailing you as I need to verify my email address in Wikipedia and am having issues doing that. Please see this link related to Lexington Distillery history specifically and it verifies the 1961 date: http://lexhistory.org/wikilex/whiskey-trade-lexington . I also have spoken with historic distillery employees who verified that it closed in 1961. We are a small company and have a long "To Do List", and one of those things includes updating our own website with that date. As to the OF seal, I have not studied its history closely, but it seems to only state that it was SEALED, it does not state how it was sealed. For JEP the history is referring to a STRIP STAMP seal, and the claim is that it was the first strip stamp seal (commonly used today). He created that so he could print his signature across the seal on it, to deter counterfeiters b/c they could pursue counterfeiters based on forgery laws if they replicated that and those laws were strong (trademark law was weak). And that this specific type of seal, ie a strip stamp, was then incorporated into the Bottled in Bond act of 1897. And yes, we revived our federal license and operate under DSP-KY-5. I would very much enjoy having a conversation with you about our page as there is a TON of history and documentation I have assembled over a ten year period and it is very cumbersome to try and explain all in typing in Wikipedia. Please email me at info@jamesepepper.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amirpeay (talk • contribs) 14:21, 1 June 2019 (UTC)