Talk:Rumi

Ethnicity Removed

Why has Kansas Bear removed the Persian ethnicity of Rumi from being Persian? He cites, MOS:Ethnicity, but it claims it shouldn't be apart of the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability. Consensus has been reached on the talk page about this tiring topic already. Please reintroduce Persian.

The lead in for Socrates is that he is a Greek Philosopher, Rumi is no different here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:55DF:FC8A:8C6D:42C2:1616:4D24 (talk) 01:39, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I'd like to mention instead of addressing or explaining his reasoning he simply deleted my comments as an IP user from his talk page. MOS:Ethnicity has not been proved to apply here. unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:55DF:FC8A:8C6D:42C2:1616:4D24 (talk) 02:59, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Comments about this editor's edits are duly noted. Onpoint12 (talk) 23:58, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Can someone do that please? 103.73.57.133 (talk) 06:27, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

MOS:Ethnicity does not apply here since Rumi's Persian identity is central to his notability. Merely highlighting his origins in 'Greater Iran' lacks clarity for an opening paragraph and he is described as Persian in any reputable academic source (many of which are already cited on this page). Onpoint12 (talk) 10:02, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, but his Persian poetry is, not his Persian ethnicity, hence MOS:ETHNICITY applies. HistoryofIran (talk) 22:29, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

His ethnocultural identity is 'Persian' and it is indelibly associated with him and his contribution to Persian literature - as recognised by multiple credible sources used on this page. It is also an important descriptor for the sake of a) clarity (versus saying he is from Khwarezm in Greater Iran, which is opaque and arguably contradictory and b) consistency with other pages on Wikipedia where many poets have ethnocultural descriptors i.e. Greek, Roman preceding the word 'poet'. Any attempt to deny this descriptor works against educating the reader. Onpoint12 (talk) 23:56, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

• "consistency with other pages on Wikipedia where many poets have ethnocultural descriptors i.e. Greek, Roman preceding the word 'poet'."

WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not an argument.

Rumi isn't known for being a "Persian", he is known for his poetry. Which has been already stated, which you have clearly ignored. --Kansas Bear (talk) 00:04, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Rumi is knwon for being a 'Persian poet' in the same way other poets in other languages are 'French poets' or 'English poets'. It refers to ethnocultural identity and contribution. Importantly, academic sources refer to him as the same. The fact that other pages manage to clarify such facts illustrates why they score better for clarity, an area where this page underperforms alarmingly. Onpoint12 (talk) 00:10, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

WP:REHASH. --Kansas Bear (talk) 00:15, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Previous editors' comments suggest your rationales for these ongoing changes fail to resonate. I am not adding 'Persian' as an ethnic descriptor; please re read my rationale, check the sources used on this page, and understand that MOS:ETHNICITY does not apply here. As others have already highlighted in the past. Onpoint12 (talk) 00:20, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I await a response on why adding 'Persian' as a descriptor to 'poet' is an ethnic reference that has no place in the article. As mentioned many times, it reflects his 'ethnocultural' identity and contribution, an important aspect of the subject that helps educate the reader, and which is recognised by the sources used on this page (which also describe him as a 'Persian poet). Onpoint12 (talk) 00:59, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

He is well known as being a 'Persian poet', which recognises his ethnocultural identity and contribution. I again highlight the sources used on this page. A simple Google search will also furnish you with the same evidence. Simply telling me he is known for his poetry does not preclude notability based on his ethnocultural identity, the evidence for which is overwhelming Onpoint12 (talk) 01:05, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Could you please some WP:RS that talks about the importance of this "ethnocultural identity"? There are other ways to highlight a poet without going against MOS:ETHNICITY, eg [1] HistoryofIran (talk) 01:48, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 February 2024

I would like to ask to "change Rumi to Molavi", as his original name is Molavi. He is born in Balkh (currently part of Afghanistan - seperated in 1857 from Iran by Treaty of Paris). His peoms are in Persian and the name of Rumi is not representative of neither his origin nor his name. The name Rumi is a huge misrepresenting for an international poem like Molavi. Farzaneh gholami (talk) 16:28, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Rumi is his WP:COMMONNAME; regardless of any alleged 'misrepresentation'. The name you characterize as 'not representative' also reflects the geography (see Rûm) he arguably had the most direct impact on. Uness232 (talk) 17:59, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

An interesting fact about Meulana

An interesting and perhaps less widely known fact about Rumi is his deep and transformative friendship with Shams of Tabriz. This meeting is often credited with changing Rumi's life and turning him towards the path of Sufi mysticism. Before meeting Shams, Rumi was a respected but relatively conventional Islamic scholar. The intensity of their relationship sparked an outpouring of poetic longing and spiritual depth in Rumi's work, which previously had not been as evident. Their friendship is a central theme in many of Rumi's poems, illustrating the transformative power of human connection and love. This relationship also led to the creation of many of Rumi's most beloved poems, collected in the "Divan-e Shams-e Tabrizi" (The Collected Poems of Shams of Tabriz). The profound impact of Shams on Rumi's life and work underscores the importance of companionship, love, and the mentor-mentee relationship in the journey of spiritual and personal growth, a theme that resonates across cultures and eras. FatemeHashemi1992 (talk) 16:31, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

The Shams friendship is mentioned quite a bit in the article. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 18:37, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Runi quote about source of lights

OK to add Rumi's statement, "Thus, even though two lamp-dishes be not joined, Yet their light is united in a single ray" from https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Masnavi_I_Ma%27navi/Book_III#STORY_XVII._The_Vakil_of_the_Prince_of_Bokhara.

This passage could go in the Teachings section as representing the concept of a commonality to divine teachings. I also encounter this passage translated to English as "The lamps are different, but the Light is the same; it comes from Beyond." I am not certain of the source of this translation, it might be Coleman Barks. Badgettrg (talk) 03:59, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Request to Reinstate Rumi's Persian Ethnocultural Identity

I want to bring attention to the fact that Rumi is widely recognized as a Persian poet and mystic in numerous academic sources. Removing his Persian identity from this page seems highly questionable and contradicts established scholarly consensus. Given the importance of this aspect of Rumi’s heritage, any removal of such references raises concerns about bias or misinformation. I request that the users who are preventing the accurate representation of Rumi’s Persian heritage be thoroughly investigated. Let's maintain the integrity of the content and be fair to the historical and cultural significance of such figures.

Request to Reinstate Rumi's Persian Ethnocultural Identity

I would like to propose that Rumi's Persian ethnocultural identity be reinstated in the article's introduction. Rumi is frequently described as a Persian poet and mystic in authoritative academic sources, which are key to understanding his contributions to Persian literature, culture, and Sufism. Removing his Persian identity contradicts scholarly consensus and misrepresents his background.

Why this matters:

Scholarly Consensus: Numerous reliable sources (WP ) refer to Rumi as a Persian figure. Examples include: Franklin Lewis, in his biography Rumi: Past and Present, East and West, consistently refers to him as a "Persian poet." Avery, Heath-Stubbs, and Goulding's book Persian Literature discusses Rumi's impact on Persian literature. Scholarly articles and books listed on Google Scholar and Google Books almost unanimously describe him as a "Persian mystic" or "Persian poet." The removal of "Persian" from Rumi's description diminishes the clarity and cultural context that is central to his historical identity. For example, figures like Socrates are described as Greek philosophers, and Virgil as a Roman poet. These ethnocultural identifiers provide necessary context.

MOS Consideration:

Relevance to Notability: According to [[MOS ]], ethnicity should not be mentioned unless it is significant to the subject's notability. In Rumi’s case, his Persian identity is central to his work and how it is understood globally. His contributions to Persian literature and Sufism are foundational, making "Persian" not only appropriate but essential for historical accuracy.

User Bear argued that MOS applies because Rumi is known for his poetry, not his ethnicity. However, this logic neglects the fact that Rumi’s ethnocultural identity as a Persian is crucial to his literary contributions. Describing him simply as "from Greater Iran" lacks clarity and misleads the reader. Rumi is known as a "Persian poet" in the same way that other poets are labeled by their ethno-cultural identity (e.g., "French poet," "Greek poet").

Supporting Sources:

Lewis, Franklin. "Rumi: Past and Present, East and West: The Life, Teachings and Poetry of Jalal Al-Din Rumi." Oneworld Publications, 2007. Avery, Peter, and Heath-Stubbs, John. "Persian Literature." Cambridge University Press, 1979. Goulding, Edmund L., "The Persian Mysticism of Rumi." Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 121, No. 2, 2001. Several editors, including User , have pointed out the overwhelming academic consensus on Rumi’s Persian identity. User has also mentioned that Rumi’s contributions are tied more to his Persian poetry, which still reinforces the importance of his ethnocultural identity. Disregarding this descriptor works against educating the reader about his historical significance.

Furthermore, User:2607:FEA8:55DF:FC8A:8C6D:42C2:1616:4D24 and User:103.73.57.133 previously raised valid concerns about the removal of "Persian," and their arguments about the clarity and consistency with other pages were dismissed without sufficient engagement.

In summary, MOS does not apply here because Rumi's ethnocultural identity is directly related to his notability, just like other poets are labeled with their respective cultural or ethnic backgrounds. Ignoring this introduces unnecessary ambiguity and detracts from the integrity of the article. I urge for the term "Persian" to be reintroduced as part of his primary descriptor.

I would appreciate input from editors like User Bear, User , User , and User:2607:FEA8:55DF:FC8A:8C6D:42C2:1616:4D24 to discuss this matter further and come to a resolution based on the available evidence.

Thank you for considering this request. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikihero1994 (talk • contribs) 10:55, 20 October 2024 (UTC)