Talk:Jack Brabham

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Your biog on Jack Brabham says his first Grand Prix win was at Monaco in 1955. I believe Stirling Moss won that race. Jack Brabham won at Monaco in 1959.

I believe you are right - see Jach Brabham's wins and Stirling Moss' wins. -Fred Bradstadt 07:42, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

Rating

Class is start - what's here is OK (although I think there may be a couple of errors) but it is really very brief and anyone with more than a very casual interest would have to look elsewhere.

Importance is mid - In the context of WP Australia at least, would be higher in context of WP:f1 --4u1e 22:19, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Teams and Constructors

AAFL - thanks for your hard work in adding results to this article.

I hope you don't mind, but I've changed the team for 1962 from Lotus to Brabham. Jack did not drive for Lotus, although the Brabham Racing Organisation bought a Lotus car to use in early 1962 while Motor Racing Developments built the first Brabham car. See the Brabham article for more details! Maserati is wrong as well - that was a privateer car that Jack entered himself. However, I'm not quite sure to put there under 'team'. See Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Formula_One for more on this topic. --4u1e 18:21, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

www.jack-brabham-engines.com

This address is continually added to and removed from the External Links section. If there's a valid reason for not wanting the link there, perhaps we can add a wikicomment to save everyone some time and effort. -- DH85868993 01:03, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I guess it's removed because it's an anon who does it, and it does look a bit spammy. However, on this occasion, assuming the company's connection to Sir Jack is valid, it seems like a valid link. I'll put it back. 4u1e 15:31, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Interestingly, the last person to remove it has been editing exclusively on the 6-stroke technology worked on by JBE. 4u1e 06:47, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Malbeare has removed the link again, categorising it as spam. WP:EL seems to be the relevant guidance. On the one hand, it says that "Articles about any organization, person, web site, or other entity should link to the official site if any". On the other, it also says to avoid "Links to sites with objectionable amounts of advertising" and "Sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject". The site does contain some content on Sir Jack - and I found a useful-looking doc there on the Brabham BT19, so it's been helpful already :). On the other hand, there is a fair bit of merchandising, although it is at least relevant to the topic. I'd say we could argue it either way. Any other views? 4u1e 19:18, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

It's linked to from Sir Jack's official site anyway, which we also have a link to (uncontroversially, I trust!), so on that basis I'm happy to leave it out. If Malbeare is reading - looks like we're in agreement, but it's better to discuss things on the talk page than for the article to be edited back and forth. Cheers. 4u1e 19:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Jack Brabham Engines is an Australian company in which Sir Jack is a director. Please note that the materials posted under "Biography" are directly provided personally by him including photographs; they are not copied or taken from other sites, they have come from his personal collection. The merchandise items available have been selected by Sir Jack as well. The US site www.jackbrabham.com is organised by Mr Gurney who provides promotional activities for Sir Jack outside Australia, as is advertised there. Posted 21 June 2007

Links normally to be avoided Except for a link to a page that is the subject of the article or an official page of the article subject—and not prohibited by restrictions on linking—one should avoid:

Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article. Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research. See Reliable sources for explanations of the terms "factually inaccurate material" or "unverifiable research". Links mainly intended to promote a website. Links to sites that primarily exist to sell products or services. For example, instead of linking to a commercial bookstore site, use the "ISBN" linking format, giving readers an opportunity to search a wide variety of free and non-free book sources. Links to sites with objectionable amounts of advertising. Links to sites that require payment or registration to view the relevant content. Sites that are inaccessible to a substantial number of users, such as sites that only work with a specific browser. Direct links to documents that require external applications (such as Flash or Java) to view the relevant content, unless the article is about such rich media. If you do link to such material make a note of what application is required. Links to search engine and aggregated results pages. Links to social networking sites (such as MySpace), discussion forums or USENET. Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority. Links to open wikis, except those with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors. Sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject: the link should be directly related to the subject of the article. A general site that has information about a variety of subjects should usually not be linked to from an article on a more specific subject. Similarly, a website on a specific subject should usually not be linked from an article about a general subject. If a section of a general website is devoted to the subject of the article, and meets the other criteria for linking, then that part of the site could be deep-linked.

[edit] Advertising and conflicts of interest Main articles: Wikipedia:Conflict of interest and Wikipedia:Spam Due to the rising profile of Wikipedia and the amount of extra traffic it can bring a site, there is a great temptation to use Wikipedia to advertise or promote sites. This includes both commercial and non-commercial sites. You should avoid linking to a website that you own, maintain or represent, even if the guidelines otherwise imply that it should be linked. If the link is to a relevant and informative site that should otherwise be included, please consider mentioning it on the talk page and let neutral and independent Wikipedia editors decide whether to add it. This is in line with the conflict of interest guidelines. Note that since Wikipedia uses nofollow tags, external links may not alter search engine rankings.

A few parties now appear to have a spambot capable of spamming wikis from several different wiki engines, analogous to the submitter scripts for guestbooks and blogs. If you see a bot inserting external links, please consider checking the other language wikis to see if the attack is widespread. If it is, please contact a sysop on the meta-wiki; they can put in a Wikimedia-wide text filter. Sysops will block unauthorized bots on sight. the inclusion of the link from the anonymous user is clearly spam and has a conflick of interest --Malbeare 14:36, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Malbeare has quoted some relevant points there, particularly if the individual adding the link is connected to JBE - which I imagine is the case here. I think we've agreed above that it's as well to leave the site out - given that apart from anything else it can be reached from Sir Jack's own site, which is correctly linked from the article. The point I made above to Malbeare also applies to the anonymous adder of the link: It's better to reach an agreement here and not just keep editing back and forth. Cheers 4u1e 16:45, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Jack Brabham is no longer a director of Jack Brabham Engines:

Australian Securities & Investments Commission Electronic Lodgement Document No. 1E3389759

Lodgement date/time: 04-07-2007 14:17:09

Reference Id:75312635

Trace No.:1001369

Form 484 Corporations Act 2001 Change to company details

Company details

Company name JACK BRABHAM ENGINES LIMITED

Australian Company Number (ACN) 108108425

Lodgement details

Who should ASIC contact if there is a query about this form?

Name BIMSON SMITH PARTNERS PTY LIMITED

ASIC registered agent number(if applicable) 1472

Signature This form must be signed by a current officeholder of the company.

I certify that the information in this form is true and complete

Name ALAN PATRICK CASEY

Capacity SEC

Signature

Date signed 20-06-2007

ASIC Form 484 Ref 7531263504/07/2007 Page1 of 2 DocId: 1E3389759 ACN :108 108 425

B1 Cease company officeholder Officer

This section shows the cessation of a company officeholder

Officeholder cessation

Details Role(s) Director

Cessation Date:20-06-2007

The name of the ceased officeholder is:

Given names JACK

Family name BRABHAM

Birth Details

Date of Birth 02-04-1926

City/town of Birth HURSTVILLE

State (if born in Australia) NSW

Country of Birth Australia

B2 Appoint company officeholder Officer

This section shows the appointment of a company officeholder

Officeholder Apointment

Details Role(s) Director

Appointment Date:20-06-2007

(details of new director removed for privacy reasons)

Form 484-Change to /07/2007 Page 2 of 2 DocId: 1E3389759 ACN :108 108 425

Malbeare 06:04, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Would it be possible to make that readable rather than just copy & paste? --Falcadore 00:24, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I've reformatted the text a little further (in addition to Malbeare's efforts of earlier today) and removed the details of the new director for privacy reasons. But I'm wondering:

• whether other details should also be removed for privacy reasons, or
• whether we need to retain the full text of the document here in the talkpage at all.

Please note that I'm not doubting the veracity of Malbeare's statement about Jack Brabham no longer being a director of Jack Brabham Engines, and I appreciate that he went to the effort of copy-and-pasting the text here as evidence. DH85868993 03:11, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

The document is a publicly available document from the australian ASIC ( australian securities and investment commission)http://www.search.asic.gov.au/gns001.html If you are a director of a PUBLIC company there is nothing private about it. Malbeare 21:33, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Good point! I hadn't thought of that. DH85868993 00:55, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

www.jack-brabham-engines.com (2)

I refer to a letter written by Sir Jack Brabham OBE to WIKIPEDIA dated 30 June 2007 requesting the link: "Jack Brabham - Official Australian site" to be placed on the WIKI page for him. This link was inserted by Phil Sandifer of WIKI to link to www.jackbrabhamengines.com which is Sir Jack's Australian website where you will find up to date information about him, given by him. This link is being changed erroneously. Sir Jack has a site run by Donn Gurney in the USA who has in the past organised promotional events for him. However the materials provided at www.jackbrabhamengines.com are entirely provided by Sir Jack with his permission from his personal collection of photographs. We have now changed back to link to the Australian site in accordance with Sir Jack's wishes. While there are queries on various races and/or cars, if you only emailed us in Australia, we can source that information directly from Sir Jack.

With the greatest of respect to Sir Jack, whether or not he requests that the page be linked here is of no relevance as whether the information should be included in an encyclopedia. Concerns have been expressed about the inclusion of links to a commercial site (i.e. one whose purpose is in part to sell Brabham memorabilia) (See WP:LINK). It is normal to include links to an individual's personal website if such exists, so if jackbrabham.com is no longer Sir Jack's official site, and the JBE site is, could you tell us to whom the letter to Wikipedia was sent? Cheers. 4u1e 19:40, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I have restored the other conversations you deleted. Please note that it is extremely bad wiki-manners to delete 'conversations by other users. In this context it could be taken as an attempt to hide views put forward by others. Could I suggest that it might be an idea to open a Wikipedia account, it would make continuing such conversations as this much easier. Cheers. 4u1e 19:43, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Response 31 October 2007. Wikipedia correspondence, contact Phil Sandifer - Sir Jack has both an Australian official site as well as a site based in the USA, www.jackbrabham.com - however the information at www.jackbrabhamengines.com is up to date and contains recent photos of Sir Jack in Australia as well as photos/information released by him personally for publication on that site.

The earlier discussions on this page by "Malbeare" regarding Sir Jack, Jack Brabham Engines Limted, its directors have been submitted as evidence in a Federal Court of Australia action commenced recently. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.174.81.240 (talk) 21:32, 30 October 2007 (UTC) http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/FCA/2010/872.html http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/FCA/2010/1096.html

I suspect that that is of no relevance here - all I can see above is a discussion over whether it is appropriate (by Wikipedia's in-house rules) to include a link to the JBE site in the article, and information reproduced here by Malbeare regarding Sir Jack's resignation from the board of directors of JBE. Not that I feel you're being threatening, but it might be useful to read WP:LEGAL. Cheers. 4u1e 17:22, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

It is true that the JBE site is his official site, and I changed the link to reflect that per an OTRS request. This should not be taken as a judgment that other links are inappropriate - merely that the JBE site is the one that can most accurately be called his official site. Phil Sandifer 17:33, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Pardon my ignorance: OTRS? For the rest, do you feel that Sir Jack's stepping down from the board of directors would make any difference (my initial reaction would be not). Cheers. 4u1e 17:58, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

WP:OTRS. And my reaction would be that it does not make a difference - the JBE link should still be included.Again, that's not a judgment on other links - just that the JBE link should definitely be included. Phil Sandifer 19:13, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Looks like we're in agreement then. As the American site seems also to be officially sanctioned, going by the above comments, I'll review it and if it offers different content include it as well. Could I make a gentle plea to clearly note the reasoning for reincluding such links in future, Phil? A note on this page from yourself, or even in your edit summary, given the existing discussions on this page, would have been helpful in resolving this. I realise that the talk page discussions were deleted at one point, by the anonymous editor (presumed JBE rep), and so the history of the discussion may not have been obvious. Many thanks for your help. Cheers. 4u1e 11:22, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

The content at www.jackbrabham.com, while obviously similar, is different enough that I judge it worth having both as they add to the content of the page. In terms of 'current events' and contemporary photos, they are likely to do so even if the page itself is ever brought up to FA standard. Cheers. 4u1e 11:36, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

federal court case

I agree with Trekphiler below. Wikipedia is not the forum for this. If you want a vessel to complain about your legal treatment, try a personal blog (see Wikipedia:Alternative outlets for suggestions) or the court systems or a newspaper editorial or, really, any place but here.

I think that this event should have a reference in the history retirement section. Jack Brabham turned up at the Sydney Federal court with a reporter glued to his side . clearly he was using his reputation to start a trial by media during the court case . I made no comment as the matter was before the court. any comments atributed to me were reporters artistic license fabrication Interestingly I cannot find any refference to the article named "Tight corner for Sir Jack Brabham in row over engine" in the Herald sun . they seem to have deleted it from their records. Tight corner for Sir Jack Brabham in row over engine Article from: Herald Sun Karen Collier April 14, 2009 12:00am http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-197672428.html http://www.theage.com.au/national/brabham-battle-in-court-20091026-hgrd.html http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/jack-brabham-in-legal-battle-over-engine/story-e6frg6o6-1225791165135 http://www.drive.com.au/editorial/articledetail.aspx?ArticleID=66775&vf=1 http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/doubts-on-engines-15-trillion-valuing-20100819-12oc7.html Federal Court Judgment judgment costs Malbeare (talk) 22:03, 4 February 2012 (UTC) In the long life and times of a man known almost entirely for his motor racing exploits, this technical court case relating to patent law is an extremely trivial part. It is clear from reading this set of articles that, although his name got the case into the Australian news, it didn't actually involve him in any real sense. Trivia doesn't belong in a Wikipedia article. Wikipedia biographies are a digest of information that is important to understand the life and career of a notable person. They do not include every single event in that person's life, that's the job of a 300 page autobiography, not a 3000-4000 word Wikipedia article. His involvement with Jack Brabham Engines only merits one sentence in the article, so why should we spend time discussing a case that even the judge said was "not about Sir Jack Brabham. It is a case about the conduct of other people and the corporations through which they chose to conduct themselves. It is a case which principally involves three people – Malcolm Beare and Alan Casey, who were involved from the outset, and Stylianos Eleftheriadis"? The reasons for not discussing this case here are most eloquently made in paragraphs 2 and 3 of the judge's introduction. You won. Move on. Pyrope 23:24, 4 February 2012 (UTC) I would dearly love to moove on but the complainants have not paid any court costs Malbeare (talk) 23:35, 4 February 2012 (UTC) costs judgment I'm seeing this as somebody trying to use WP as a forum to put pressure on somebody to pay off, if not outright dirty Brabham with something he wasn't actually a party to. TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 02:23, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

with all due respect for your oppinion. Jack Brabham tried very hard to make it all about him and have a public wave of support carry the day. hence the newspaper article being instigated and published before a judgment. He was there in person and gave 3 supporting affidavits to the complainent case.Malbeare (talk) 21:16, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

With all due respect to you, Wikipedia is absolutely not the place to carry on any kind of personal campaign for any reason. --Falcadore (talk) 21:26, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

There is a recuring pattern in that Jack Brabham lends his support or name for money or promisses (shares) and walks away with other shareholders losing.[ Splitt cycle (Rick Mayne) , Mayflower , Save the world air, jetfan, fuelstar, vortex dynamics,Jack Brabham Engines pty ltd ,JBEC pty ltd] Just google them and judge for youself. Malbeare (talk) 19:47, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Not a forum for complaints about Brabham... TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 20:10, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

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please add

a filter will not let this be added by me. Please add:

In 2016, Gary was found guilty of one charge of [[rape]], and one charge of indecent treatment, of a child then aged 6.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-24/gary-brabham-son-of-racing-car-legend-guilty-child-rape/7275746|title=Gary Brabham, son of racing car legend, found guilty of child rape|work=ABC News|accessdate=26 March 2016}}</ref>

An editor just deleted this RS-supported relevant material. From a para devoted to Jack's children, and what they had done. That makes no sense. Especially since the ref has a title of "gary-brabham-son-of-racing-car-legend-guilty-child-rape." This certainly belongs in that para in that article. 2604:2000:E016:A700:DCA2:FC04:A7DA:DC93 (talk) 06:27, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

Which belongs on his son's article and not in this article. Bidgee (talk) 07:26, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

It certainly in fact does belong in this article. I that paragraph. Which discusses the following; it is of precisely the same ilk ... the background of his children and grandchildren:

Brabham and Betty had three sons together: Geoff, Gary, and David. All three became involved in motorsport ... Between them, they have won sportscar and single-seater races and championships. Geoff was an Indycar and sportscar racer who won five North American sportscar championships as well as the 24 Hours of Le Mans,[52] while David competed in Formula One for the Brabham team and has also won the Le Mans race as well as three Japanese and North American sportscar titles.[53] Gary also drove briefly in Formula One, although his F1 career consisted of two DNPQ's for the Life team.[54] Brabham and Betty divorced in 1994 after 43 years. ... Brabham's grandson Matthew (son of Geoff) graduated from karts in 2010 and won two ladders of the Mazda Road to Indy, making is Verizon Series debut at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway doubleheader meet. Another grandson, Sam, the son of David and Lisa, whose brother Mike also was an F1 driver, stepped up to car racing from karts in 2013 when he made his debut in the British Formula Ford Championship.[55]

And some would argue that most of that doesn't belong here either. Britmax (talk) 11:31, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

I would agree, nothing about Gary belongs here, nor anything about Matthew (which should be on Geoff's page, as his relation, providing there's no page on Matthew); I would say, however, the basics on Jack's sons does:

"All three became involved in motorsport ... Between them, they have won sportscar and single-seater races and championships. Geoff was an Indycar and sportscar racer, while David competed in Formula One for the Brabham team. Gary also drove briefly in Formula One."

That said, if all mention of his sons' activities were deleted, I'd make no strong objection; it's borderline on-point, because it's some context on Jack's legacy, not essential knowledge, & can as well be found (or placed) on their respective pages. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 00:38, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

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