Talk:Isaiah 40

Circle of the Earth and Earth as a sphere in verse 22

Verse 22 is often cited as a proof text for a Biblical doctrine of the Earth as a sphere. There are obvious difficulties with this interpretation: The text, interpreted literally, is about a circle' and of the Earth. It does not use a word for sphere which is available in Biblical Hebrew. It does not say that the circle is the Earth. The standard cosmology of the Ancient Near East, which standard commentators ascribe to the Bible, is of a flat Earth. And, last of all, as mentioned in introducton to this article, Deutro-Isaiah dates from the 6th century, roughly contemporaneous with Pythagoras, to whom the idea of the Earth as a sphere is commonly attributed. I do not want to imagine, without any evidence, any connecton between Pythagoras and Babylonian astrology, but this as a proof-text does not predate Pythgoras. Anyway, my first reaction is that Wikipedia shuld not to mention all of this as just baseless speculation. As I have done for these many years. And, then there is the need to dig up the needed confirmation - I don't want to be guilty of "orignial research". But, on the other hand, we do hear of this baseless speculation often enough. If there is any reason to spend any effort on debunking this? Or should it be left to the debunking sites? I sort of hope that the consensus is, "forget it". TomS TDotO (talk) 13:51, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

@TomS TDotO: To address your concern, I would like to suggest the following addition to verse 22. JohnThorne (talk) 22:32, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Verse 22

It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth,

and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers;

that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain,

and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in. (KJV)

Westermann notes the similarity of parts of this verse to other Bible verses: verse 22a vs. Job 34:13b and verse 22b vs. Psalm 104:2b. This verse contains several rare words  – such as דֹּק֙‎, doq ("curtain"), and מָתַח‎, mathach ("spread, stretch"), which are only found here, as well as ח֣וּג‎, chug ("circle"), which are only found in a few other verses (Proverbs 8:27; Job 22:14; Job 26:10) – suggesting “well-defined, distinctive traditions.”

• "Circle" (of the earth): is translated from the Hebrew word חוּג‎, chug, which also denotes "horizon, circuit, vault of the heavens." It can refer to the full circuit  – the seen and unseen halves – of the stars across the dome of the sky, or the vault of heaven (Job 22:14) extending “in a half-circle from horizon to horizon”, or a circular observable horizon (cf. Proverbs 8:27; Job 26:10), to emphasize the range of God’s authority “over everything the eye can see in every direction, even to the distant ends of the earth,” but not necessarily refer to the “circular nature of the earth.” Rashi mentions an expression with the same root in Isaiah 44:13 (“and with a compass (וּבַמְּחוּגָה)”) to view this word as a “circle” (as made by a compass).

Notes

References

Bibliography

• Brown, Francis; Briggs, Charles A.; Driver, S. R. (1994). The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon (reprint ed.). Hendrickson Publishers. ISBN 978-1565632066.
• Gesenius, H. W. F. (1979). Gesenius' Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Scriptures: Numerically Coded to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, with an English Index. Translated by Tregelles, Samuel Prideaux (7th ed.). Baker Book House.
• Oswalt, John (1998). The Book of Isaiah, Chapters 40-66. (Volume 2 of The Book of Isaiah). New International Commentary on the Old Testament. Vol. 23. Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing. ISBN 9780802825346. Retrieved February 28, 2019.
• Smith, Gary V. (2009). Isaiah 40-66. New American commentary. Vol. 15. B&H Publishing Group. ISBN 9780805401448. Retrieved February 28, 2019.
• Westermann, Claus (1969). Isaiah 40-66. Old Testament Library. Westminster John Knox Press. ISBN 9780664226459. Retrieved February 28, 2019.

@JohnThorne: I don't want to have Wikipedia discuss Bible proof-texts except in special circumstances. My personal opinon is that this particular verse is not particularly interesting, except for its gross misinterpretaton by a small group of people. That's my opinion, and I obviously would not say that in the text of an article. Am I wrong, and this "round Earth" interpretation should be given recognition?, if only by doculmenting the more reasonable alternatives - the "round Earth" interpretaton is thus conspicuous by its absence? I'm trying to bend over backwards in being fair, against my personal opinion. I appreciate the work that you have done. As long as you have done the work, why not just edit the text of this article? TomS TDotO (talk) 14:48, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

@JohnThorne: the treatment of this topic does need to be balanced, as you obviously appreciate: otherwise I would stay clear of it. I am sure Deutero-Isaiah had no intention of disturbing the traditional cosmology of the times with a new interpretation: "Comfort my people" (Is. 40:1), the governance of the earth is as we were told it from the beginning (Is. 40:21). There are translations which refer to a globe, e.g. Douai-Rheims (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah+40%3A22&version=DRA) and the Spanish version of the Jubilee Bible (el globo: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah+40%3A22&version=JBS), although the English version (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah+40%3A22&version=JUB) does not do so. The Creationist website https://creation.com/isaiah-40-22-circle-sphere, while pushing a particular point of view, does mention several translations from the sixteenth century until today which refer to the "sphericity of the earth", so there is a basis for showing that there is this strand in translation history. By my reading there are three possible interpretations to be balanced out:

• A horizon-to-horizon flat earth
• A three dimensional 'dome-shaped' vault above a flat earth
• A sphere

Best wishes, BobKilcoyne (talk) 04:26, 2 March 2019 (UTC)