Talk:Iraklis F.C. (Thessaloniki)

WHY?

Put Thessaloniki in the title? WHY? Reaper7 (talk) 18:57, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Thessaloniki in name

PAOK FC page doesnt have any Thessaloniki in the title!Why does Iraklis FC has?Can you please answer? Downfoot1 (talk) 11:32, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Outside Greece, the team is known as 'Iraklis Thessaloniki' (or 'Iraklis Salonika'). Since this is the most commonly used name for the team, I don't see why we should change it..Dimitris08 (talk) 13:45, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Importance rating

I rated it as an article of mid importance as it's the rating for Greek Superleague's teams in WikiProject Greece. Hansi667 (talk) 21:08, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Notable former players

I'm moving the list from the main page hereto be kept as an archive, since there are no clear inclusion or exclusion criteria in it.

Greece

• George Papadopoulos
• Kostas Aidiniou
• Giorgos Anatolakis
• Kostas Chalkias
• Thanasis Dimopoulos
• Grigoris Fanaras
• Kiriakos Fitilis
• Giorgos Foiros
• Georgios Georgiadis
• Dimitris Gesios
• Zaharias Haliabalias
• Minas Hantzidis
• Vassilis Hatzipanagis
• Pantelis Kapetanos
• Kostas Karapatis
• Fanis Katergiannakis
• Savvas Kofidis
• Christos Kostis
• Vagelis Kousoulakis
• Panagiotis Lagos
• Nikos Machlas
• Dimitris Mavrogenidis
• Albert Nahmias
• Takis Nikoloudis
• Daniil Papadopoulos
• Lakis Papaioannou
• Ilias Poursanidis
• Makis Sentelidis
• Ieroklis Stoltidis
• Efstathios Tavlaridis
• Fanis Tountziaris
• Bambis Xanthopoulos
• Thomas Zahariadis

Albania

• Altin Haxhi
• Lefter Millo
• Edwin Murati
• Arjan Xhumba

Argentina

• Sebastián Rambert

Brazil

• Ederson Fofonka

Cameroon

• Joël Epalle

Cyprus

• Michalis Konstantinou

Germany

• Andreas Reinke

Ghana

• Ebenezer Hagan

Iceland

• Sigurður Grétarsson

Italy

• Giuseppe Signori
• Samuele Dalla Bona

Liberia

• James Debbah
• Kelvin Sebwe

Nigeria

• Garba Lawal

Norway

• Tom Sundby

Poland

• Wojciech Kowalewski
• Cezary Kucharski
• Marcin Mięciel

Romania

• Nicolae Dică

Serbia

• Zoran Antonijević
• Jovan Gojković (†)
• Ivan Jovanović
• Dušan Mitošević
• Marko Pantelić

Spain

• Alberto Belsúe
• Aarón Ñíguez

Sweden

• Kennedy Bakircioglü

Hansi667 (talk) 17:59, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Iraklis having to compete in Delta Ethniki

Iraklis have been stripped off their professional licence by the Greek Professional Sports Committee on 26 September 2011, which means they cannot compete in any Greek professional football leagues (Super League, Football League or Football League 2) under their football company (PAE). This means that Iraklis could compete this year in Delta Ethniki, which is amateur, in EPSM (local and amateur) leagues, or, cease to compete or cease to exist, after being stiken out of EPO's logs and chapters.

The Greek Professional Sports Committee took the relevant decision as there was no relevant case folder submitted to it by (PAE, i.e. the company) Iraklis FC to be approved or even examined.... There was no appeal to this decision, and, or application for time extension before the case (about PAE Iraklis FC) would have been studied.

However, as it is quite common in Greece, the local media made up a story about how Iraklis could compete in some professional league (filling one of the empty spots that occured due to the Koriopolis scandal), like ACF Fiorentina did when it was promoted from Serie C2 directly to Serie B. However, the Greek media conviniently ommit that, A. Fiorentina made first a new company under a new name and, B. it played one year in Serie C2 and was to be promoted to Serie C1 and that was when it was instead promoted to Serie B, because the Serie B teams were increased that year.

So, if Iraklis was to follow that model, it'd have to play one year in Delta Ethniki, gain the right to be promoted and then be promoted not to Football League 2, but, to some higher division... for some reason or other.

This year, under no circumstances can this team compete in some Greek professional football league. So, at it's current edit, that's what the article says, assuming Iraklis will not fold or play in some even lower division than Delta Ethniki (which can no longer be done, as the EPSM championships have already started). So, Iraklis can either fold and cease to exist at all, compete in Delta Ethniki this year, or not compete at all in Greece, which may cause EPO's further reaction.

Also, since Iraklis is to compete in an amateur championship, its PAE (football ltd.) ceases to exist, and can compete as a TAP(paid footballers) or under its amateur mother club. 79.166.186.79 (talk) 23:20, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Ok, first, you say yourself that there are a few possible scenarios in Iraklis's case and nobody knows what is going to happen. So, there is no reason to edit the article with some info that will later turn false.

The only fact is that Iraklis cannot compete in professional leagues. As of today, these include Super League, Football League and Football League 2. However, Greek FF may allow amateur clubs to compete in FL2, after a possible lower-division restructuring, due to the small number of professional teams left.

Besides that, even after the rejection by the Professional Sports Committee, PAE Iraklis does not cease to exist. There is a special procedure for the company to be shut down and only if the majority shareholder decides to do so. Until then it still exists as an inactive company. If in the future Iraklis's amateur department gets promoted to a professional league, the company could be reactivated.

There are also other scenarios, from a possible merge with another club (in this case, the company name will be different), to a possible close-down of the department by Iraklis GC (in this case, there will be no Iraklis FC).

As you see, I'm not trying to say that Iraklis can play to SL or FL this season. It is obvious that this is not possible in any way. I'm trying to prove that there is no reason for updating an article (of low importance) with information that change everyday. Iraklis page had numerous edits in the last 5 months, all of them with info which proved to be wrong. Maybe some of them were made in good faith, but since Wikipedia is not a news site, it's better for an article to be slightly outdated, than be filled with estimations and uncertainties.

I always try to edit the page with accurate information, in the most objective way possible and with WP:NOTNEWSPAPER in mind. I believe that my last attempts to edit the article were in this direction. If you have any objections to a particular change, I would like to hear it.

dimitris08 21:42, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, there are 21 spots to be filled for FL2, but, there are 10 champions from Delta Ethniki, and, no way too obvious reason for EPO to prefer Iraklis or any other demoted teams to fill those spots.... and, not some Delta Ethniki runner-up or whichever other team. You know that the most probable choice will be to promote the Delta Ethniki runners-up. Apart from that, the Professional Sports Committee decision means that your PAE does not lead the FC anymore (inactive or else), so, the article should lose the PAE designation. Apart from that, the thing to assume currently is that Iraklis will compete in Delta Ethniki.

About your mention of WP:NOTNEWSPAPER, it doesn't really apply, cause, as I copy:

"Wikipedia is not a newspaper

Ensure that Wikipedia articles are not:

1. Journalism. Wikipedia should not offer first-hand news reports on breaking stories.
2. News reports. Wikipedia considers the enduring notability of persons and events. While news coverage can be useful source material for encyclopedic topics, most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion. (It refers to this Wikipedia:Notability (events).)
3. Who's who. Even when an event is notable, individuals involved in it may not be."

This policy is about what is notable enough to be included in wikipedia as an article, not about wikipedia not being updated to the current situation. Actually, sometimes, when a big event like a World Cup match is underway, wikipedia is constantly updated about it, even before it finishes or even half-time... :P

I know that you were probably referring to number 2, Iraklis FC not being notable enough for inclusion on wikipedia, though there are so many current sports news reports about it - after all what are 103 years compared to the eternity to make it notable enough? - but, I'll personally spare the article from a request to be deleted.... Mwahahaha :P

Use four ~, it will provide an automatic signature to what you write here. WP:TILDE

Heracletus (talk) 01:03, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I was referring to number 1, that's why I mentioned that Iraklis's article is of low importance (in contrast to other football articles, which have real-time updates due to increased worldwide interest). Noone will come to Wikipedia to read whether PAE Iraklis will be licenced or not, or to learn the latest details in the case. I think it is better to keep the article clean of uncertainty and update only for adding facts. Moreover, it has been proven a few times that greek sports media report false news (again, I'm not implying that Iraklis could compete in a higher division than Delta Ethniki).

The above is just to clarify my intentions for the previous edits I made to the article, since I am clearly against the narrow-minded football fans' point of view, which appears in many greek football articles. I would like to see the same formality in other articles as well.

dimitris08 (talk) 11:11, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

lies... lies.... :P 79.167.40.77 (talk) 21:27, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I do care.

Just an FYI for those keeping up this page. I came here for one reason and one reason only, to find out where Iraklis will be playing (if they will at all) this season.

For that reason, I would ask that you please keep this as up to date as possible.

Thanks.70.89.235.130 (talk) 07:25, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

It will supposedly be decided by an open gathering of the Gymnastic Club Iraklis on Monday the 24th. Nominally, they can compete in Delta Ethniki or not at all... However, they could give their logo and brandname to some other club that competes in a higher (or lower, or any) league, something like Blah-blah FC o Iraklis bearing their logo.... Heracletus (talk) 19:09, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

It's very nice that you care, but you should understand that the article cannot be updated until a final decision has been made. There is no way, however, that Iraklis will not compete in any league this year, as the team has been registered in Delta Ethniki. Iraklis will either play there, or they can attempt a doubtful merge with a FL or FL2 club (since it must be approved by the Professional Sport Committee). dimitris08 (talk) 20:47, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

The fact that they registered doesn't mean they will compete.... It means it's most probable they will compete in Delta Ethniki. As it was most probable they'd compete there like a month ago, but, you kept changing the current league field.... :P Also, I will remove the PAE, you can add it back up when Iraklis competes as a company again. God, of all things to restore, you restored the company designation. Even now, Iraklis Gymnastic Club tries to distance itself from the Football Company (PAE) to pay less money to the Federation to compete in Delta Ethniki.... It's a shame Panteli decided to leave, he could keep the team away from competing in any league this year.... Heracletus (talk) 19:10, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

The fact that Iraklis registered in Delta Ethniki, means exactly that they will compete in that league. The team will participate in the draw of the 2nd group and will be included in the fixtures. A month ago, the team wasn't included in any league. Stop acting like you know everything about Iraklis (apparently, you know who is the new owner and that Gogakos will be placed again as chairman of Iraklis GC) and just stick to the things that are officially announced. If you want to work as a reporter for the club, you are definitely in the wrong place. dimitris08 (talk) 18:29, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Ever since Iraklis hadn't got the licence from the Greek Committee for Professional Sports, it was pretty clear where they would compete. Also, I put Gogakos as chairman, because:

1. Iraklis FC is now run under Iraklis GS.

2. Gogakos is the current chairman of Iraklis GS (until he is replaced - by himself or other - because he has resigned)

I removed the owner, because the team is no longer a professional company, so, it has no owner.

Now, "3enidis" in this edit http://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Iraklis_Thessaloniki_F.C.&oldid=457282342 would be what? regent? curator? what would be the correct translation and what will his office be?

I really don't understand why you don't like Gogakos as the current chairman? Also, i removed the dispute heading. Heracletus (talk) 13:33, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't know what Xenidis's role will be in the team (if he will ever have any). At the moment, he has no official connection with Iraklis, so he shouldn't be mentioned anywhere in the infobox. His name was added by someone who probably thinks that this article must follow the daily developments and speculations related to the future of the team. The last four months, Iraklis is in a transitional period and the "facts" are constantly changing. Right now, most of the administrative positions are vacant. Gogakos has resigned and no more acts like the club's chairman, Panteli is the owner (?) of a company which still exists, even if it doesn't participate in any league (it is not considered inactive yet, neither has been declared bankrupt).

I believe that updating just the infobox is meaningless, unless it's accompanied by a few explanatory words in the main part of the article. Or we can just wait for the situation to get more clear. dimitris08 (talk) 18:20, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

If we don't include PAE Iraklis's data in the infobox, then Makis Katsavakis's name should be removed also, since he was appointed as manager by Panteli and has not yet agreed to continue with the team in Delta Ethniki. dimitris08 (talk) 18:50, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Gogakos has resigned, but, until there's a replacement, he's the (acting/caretaker) chairman of the club... If there's a decision to be taken or a paper to be signed, someone has to do it in the meantime and that is him, until the court replaces the current managing committee. Also, Katsavakis probably has (or was promised) a contract with PAE Iraklis, for the position of the club's manager, and hasn't resigned yet. However, well, if he hasn't indeed signed a contract, then, he shouldn't be mentioned as the manager. I think he's in the same situation as the players who had a contract with the PAE, so, he could be "automatically" released, but, it's up to him. Also, Xenidis can be only an έφορος, as the football team is directly under the GS, and not a TAP or PAE, and can't have a president or chairman of its own. Heracletus (talk) 23:42, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

And now, that the club's President/Chairman has changed, I changed it accordingly... But, where are you now to change it yourself or complain, Dimitri? Heracletus (talk) 04:13, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

There is nothing to complain about. If you can offer to the article real-time update with valid and accurate info, maybe I should leave it all up to you.. :) dimitris08 (talk) 12:06, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Hahahaha, no. Heracletus (talk) 18:31, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

References

Merger proposal

Since G.S. Iraklis Thessaloniki decided to remove their team off Delta Ethniki and get into a merging deal with Pontioi Katerini F.C., the most lenient thing to do seems to be to merge the two articles, IF they share their players. IF no players from Iraklis are acquired by Pontioi Katerini F.C. and since Pontioi Katerini's ownership has not changed, it would seem that Pontioi just changed their colour and shirt identity, but, not really merged into one club with Iraklis. 46.177.127.207 (talk) 21:00, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Just wait, till the situation gets more clear. The sure thing is that there is no merging between the two teams. Iraklis GS has no longer a football section and from now on, AE Pontion will compete in Gamma Ethniki as AEP Iraklis. Since we don't know if this will be permanent, AEP's article (which is just a stub, btw) should remain as it is, with a redirecting paragraph to Iraklis's article. dimitris08 (talk) 19:59, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Ahahaha, Dimitri, you prefer to change this article to reflect that Iraklis has no football section at the time? And, you do know that the plan of the G.S. is to continue not to have a football section even next year and to just have the (Iraklis) fans buy 49% of the renamed Pontioi, while the other 51% will still be owned by the Pontioi side. However, the Football Federation's site has Pontioi as A.E.P. Iraklis already [1] and as relevant legal procedures are highly unlikely to be seen online since it's Greece, I'm not exactly sure what should be done.

But, as an Aris fan, I'll gladly write that "Iraklis F.C.used to be a football team, until the original general Iraklis sports club decided to dissolve it and pay another team for it to use Iraklis logo and colours and change its name to Iraklis, so that Iraklis could compete to a higher (third-tier) division by proxy." However, to save you some face, I'd rather merge the two articles.

Also, I am quite puzzled by the lack of relevant announcements from Pontioi on their site: [2]. It seems like nothing has changed yet for them, no reference to any deal with Iraklis, no change on their logo or any reference to a name change....

Even if Iraklis F.C. is not officially pulled out of Delta Ethniki, if it misses another two games, it will be automatically disqualified. Also, there is still no decision about the game with Digenis Lakkoma from the federation. The rules call for -2 points from this year and -2 points from next year's championship for no appearance Article 21... However, if you merge with Pontioi after your football squad has been disbanded, you can compete in Football League 2 as Article 27 reads. I really don't see the reason why you don't officially merge or don't clearly call for such an intention. I think that probably Pontioi will also dissolve and together you'll constitute a new team, something along the lines of "(New) Iraklis Thessaloniki (1908)", in accordance with paragraph 4a, article 27, which will compete in the tier Pontioi compete at the time.

However, since Delta Ethniki games are local (i.e. they cost next to nothing to G.S.), I really cannot understand why you pulled out of the championship that soon, without a merge deal already announced. At present, if Pontioi just change their name, logo and colours again in the summer, Iraklis will either compete in EPSM, or not at all... I don't understand how the shame of competing in Delta Ethniki is more than the shame of not competing at all (since you've already played in Delta Ethniki) and supporting some other team. Of course, asking those devout fans to support both teams, until there's a merging agreement signed would be such a great burden for them... Can you imagine how they'd have to swear and cheer at two (or 3-4, along with basketball and volleyball) games per week?? While, now, you've shown THE MAN...

I regularly attend A.S. Aris matches in most sports, and I do respect our players, so it gives me no pleasure that you pulled out a youthful and truly devoted team even from the lowest-national-tier championship ...in order to support a team with which you will not merge until summer. "Wake me up when Sept... uhm, June ends".

I suppose we will wait until Iraklis officially pulls out of Delta Ethniki or is disqualified, to write about that, and until a deal for a merge is announced by both sides... But, really, how could anyone vote for a proxy team to be created and the original Iraklis FC to be disbanded, without being informed that there will be a merge (possibly into a new team) and that this has been signed and agreed upon per the relevant article??? Heracletus (talk) 11:39, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

This is not literally a "merge". Pontioi have been merely renamed to AEP Iraklis, got Iraklis' logo and colors and moved to Thessaloniki: [3] So, I suggest we 1) keep this article as it is (adding a mention that Iraklis has withdrawn from Delta Ethniki, following a merger with Pontioi Katerini), and 2) move Pontioi Katerini F.C. to A.E.P. Iraklis and expand. Cheers. – Kosm1fent 14:15, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Someone created this AEP Iraklis F.C..... Merge, delete, etc under consideration. 79.167.106.104 (talk) 16:24, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

That's legit, I think. I will clean it up later. Let me just point out that AEP Iraklis is in fact Pontioi Katerinis carrying Iraklis' name, and therefore should be considered a continuation of Pontioi, as verified by the official announcement of amateur Iraklis: [4] – Kosm1fent 17:13, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

It's not legitimate. The team concerned has made no announcement of any kind. All we have is the Iraklis announcement and some sites citing it and the name AEP Iraklis. For example, is it AEP Iraklis or AEP Iraklis 1908?? Has it officially changed its name or not yet?? Is it a merge? Were players transferred? The situation is not yet fully clear. Neither the federation (epae) or the team site denote any name or colours changes yet. Even the national federation has AEP Iraklis only in a minor link. My suggestion is to give things some time and try to reach a consensus. The articles are to probably be merged, as there's no point in having two stubs for a minor team and a huge one for a defunct team, if the two teams are to merge soon. 79.167.106.104 (talk) 18:31, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

I found a better link, maybe that will ease your concerns: [5] Anyway, I am rewriting the article; if it gets merged, then at least some stuff will be useful for the Iraklis article. – Kosm1fent 18:45, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

"The situation is not yet fully clear". You don't say! That's what I wrote yesterday! This wikipedia guys! Not a sports forum! You are not obliged to make edits if you are not sure of what you are about to write. Just wait a few days for some official announcements... Iraklis's article has 50 hits per month. There is no reason to rush for changes, since it's clear that noone knows the complete details of the deal between the two clubs...dimitris08 (talk) 18:54, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

As it can be seen here [6][7], on a site that's friendly for Iraklis, the team played without a badge/logo on their shirts. That means nothing is yet final one side or the other. Thus, please refrain from changes on the Pontioi and on the Iraklis articles. The AEP Iraklis FC article could stay for now, but, its fate will be determined by what really happened and any consensus reached. Unluckily, the source you provided tell us nothing really new and most of it is not based on info provided by the teams. Again, the team played with their badges covered for obvious reasons.

Also, Dimitri, you could just tell us your opinion... I didn't create the AEP Iraklis article.... Some guy named ΟΣΦΠ did. 79.167.106.104 (talk) 18:56, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

I've run onto those links, indeed the merger is pending approval by the EEA. The logo on the article seems curious; I didn't see any logo of the new team online, thus it should be removed from the article (for now). – Kosm1fent 19:02, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

I wasn't referring to you specifically, I hope you didn't take it personally. I just used your expression, because that's exactly what I wrote yesterday. We are not here to make edits as football fans, but as wikipedia users and editors. We don't care if what Iraklis GC and AE Pontion Katerinis did, is legal, moral, "right" or "wrong". We care only about the facts and everything else stays out. Personally, as an Iraklis fan, I'm 100% against the decision Iraklis GC made. But I'm here to make sure that Iraklis article will contain only valid and accurate information about the club. My humble opinion is to wait to see, first if Iraklis GC will withdraw completely his football team from D Ethniki and second, if AEP Katerinis will make an official announcement about their future with Iraklis. Until then, any change to the articles seems hasty to me.dimitris08 (talk) 20:35, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Dimitri, and everyone, I have rewrote the new team's article according to the sources we have now. I agree that any decision regarding an article merger or deletion or something should be delayed until we know more. (BTW - and I'm not an Iraklis fan - it's a shame what this historical club has become). – Kosm1fent 20:00, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Re Dimitri, we care if it's legal, if that can be sourced. :P Also, the GS Iraklis decided to pull their team off Delta Ethniki. Wrong decision, but, it's an official one from their general assembly. I think the chairing committee is now legally obliged to enforce it. 141.237.80.20 (talk) 12:34, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Newer/"Vote"

I propose, when the merger is complete, we make a new section in this article along the lines of "Merger with Pontioi Katerini" with the AEP Iraklis infobox, as section 1.6 in section 1 History. OR, we make a small paragaph linking to AEP Iraklis article, along with a disambiguation link in the lead. That is, if/when indeed Iraklis proper pulls out of Delta Ethniki. I personally think that merging those articles in like a year, when everything will be final, would be more satisfying to everyone involved. But, for now, I think we should just wait, as Dimitris always says. Also, I have merged Pontioi Katerini F.C. into AEP Iraklis F.C. I think that noone objects to that?? Heracletus (talk) 21:27, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Being a bit bold, I implemented that a bit, but not completely. Heracletus (talk) 21:47, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Made a lot of changes to the article, some fixing, some references, some probably controversial past tenses to show the club is defunct and a lot of links to the new club. It's not my fault, they sent the papers to withdraw from Delta Ethniki, the new club has a different page here and a new webpage and still is not an official merger, rather a renaming of Pontioi so far. They could just merge or merge to form a new club and keep the history, the pages and all, but, not yet (or, generally not). I propose we vote within some sensible period on the merging of the articles or not, before the new article grows all too big. I am for the merging of them since they are pretty much the same team and the teams merging is just a formality (or so it seems at present). I blame Dimitris for the fact there are two articles and the fans are gonna hate on me and others writing that Iraklis F.C. proper is no more. Heracletus (talk) 00:41, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Also, on the article, about the 1980-81 season in Beta Ethniki, there was the following statement: "broke all division records for the largest home and away victories and most goals scored". This statement is blatant false propaganda as proven by the rsssf site in [8].
In 1980-81, Iraklis had a record 12-0 home win against Edessaikos F.C., while, in 1976-77, A.P.S. Patra had a record 13-0 against AO Koropiou and in 1962-63, Olympiakos Kozanis had a 13-1 against Amfisaikos.
In 1980-81, Iraklis had a record 0-6 away win against Odysseas Kordeliou, while, in 1962-63, Diagoras Rodou had a 0-6 win against Mikrasiatiki Athinon, in 1971-72 Apollon Kalamarias F.C. against Pandramaikos F.C., in 1973-74, Kastoria F.C. against Foinikas Polichnis, and, in 1974-75, Trikala F.C. had a 0-7 against Doxa Vyronas F.C., in 1962-63, Panelefsiniakos F.C. had a 1-7 against Spartiatikos, in 1964-65 Atromitos F.C. against AO Tripoli and Panserraikos F.C. against Elpida Nigritas, and, in 1966-67, Panelefsiniakos F.C. a 0-8 against Panarkadikos.
Last, but not least, Iraklis had 99 goals for in 1980-81, in a group of 20, while, in 1969-70, Apollon Athinon had 100, in a group of 18, with a goal difference of 83, to a goal difference of 77 for Iraklis. Heracletus (talk) 00:41, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

"I blame Dimitris for the fact there are two articles and the fans are gonna hate on me and others writing that Iraklis F.C. proper is no more."

Are you kidding me? From the beginning of this discussion, I'm just expressing my opinion, without forcing anyone to accept it. I could've started an edit war, but I refrained from making any changes to the article, fearing that I could not be objective enough. That's why there are the talk pages in every article, so that any edit, deletion, merge etc. is discussed by the users before being made.

On the topic now, I find the past tense in Iraklis's article way over the top. There are many greek clubs in the past years, that changed their tax id numbers (therefore changing slightly their name) for economic and other reasons, but I didn't see any article here stating the "death" of the previous company using past tense. It is clear that AEP Iraklis 1908 is a complete continuation of Iraklis FC, even if there is no legal connection with Iraklis GC (however, some board members of Iraklis GC are involved in the administration of AEP Iraklis 1908). In 4 months a PAE will be established with the name "Iraklis (something) FC", without "AEP" in the title (so, there will be no more "AEP Iraklis 1908"). Are we going to create a new article again?

My two cents (or maybe more): Merge. dimitris08 (talk) 15:03, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

You could have mentioned that you're for (the word) "merge" ages ago, before a new article was created or became as active. You could discuss or even implement changes, being bold, and then discuss if anyone objected. Edits usually are not discussed. I cleaned up the Olympiakos Volou merger articles like a month ago, while the two teams that had been created had merged back in 2008. There were still two articles... and, mind you, both those teams, the one merged with Kassandra and the other one had an article, and none had ceased to exist (in contrast with Iraklis Thessaloniki F.C.). AND, there were huge edit wars at the time of the merger and long after with Olympiakos Volou.

Iraklis' members managed to make a huge mess up (and clear mistake) by withdrawing their (that oh shameful) team from Delta Ethniki before the full merger deal, because:

A. Iraklis is now "dead" as Iraklis Thessaloniki FC.

B. Iraklis is nominally two teams, the "dead" one and the AEP. For example, still EPO refers to two teams, EPAE has the old logo for Pontioi and refers to them as Pontioi Katerini.

C. If Pontioi back out from the deal..... (I really consider raising enough money to have them do that just for the laugh....)

D. AEP is pretty much Pontioi judicially, nominally and per federation.

I have already mentioned that if a new club was created, say "Iraklis Athletic Club of Thessaloniki F.C." (I choose this name because it was indeed created for volleyball [9][10]), which would be the merger of Pontioi Katerini and Iraklis Thessaloniki, it would automatically play in the place of Pontioi Katerini and be a direct continuation of Iraklis Thessaloniki (and Pontioi). I mentioned the relevant sports law articles in my previous comments here. But, NO, Iraklis Thessaloniki had to disband their team, withdraw from Delta Ethniki, and "sell" their logo to Pontioi. Pontioi already used blue and white as their (away? second?) shirts colours [11][12][13], renamed their club in Katerini MAEP "Iraklis 1908" Katerini, adding only "Iraklis 1908", as the club's distinctive name. So, where's the merger exactly? In the use of the logo? That logo that is not seen on EPO or EPAE yet? That logo that's new, with AEP on it? Even the logo is not the one of Iraklis Thessaloniki, it's a NOMINALLY/JUDICIALLY new one, bearing the distinctive name of the club. Does it resemble the one of Iraklis Thessaloniki 99%? YES. So, sue them for copyright infringement.... But, it is not the one of GS or the Thessaloniki FC....

Still, I thought I would cut you some slack and propose the articles to be merged myself ages ago. But, do not say such stuff as you do. The precedent set by Olympiakos Volou is to make two different articles. Do we have two distinctive different articles? YES. So, one team, the old Iraklis decided to cease to exist, pull their team off all competitions. Do we have a "dead team"'s article? YES. Is the dead team merged with the new/other one into one? NO. For example, see that link [14].

"In 4 months a PAE will be established with the name "Iraklis (something) FC", without "AEP" in the title (so, there will be no more "AEP Iraklis 1908"). Are we going to create a new article again?" NO, we will just MOVE the AEP article into the new title. 206 people voted in the general assembly, not even 300. The team still trains mostly in Katerini. Iraklis could have merged into a new club or be merged into Pontioi and all would be done by now. But, no, like the Committee for Professional Sports affair (where there wasn't even an application submitted and there was no application for deadline extension), the GS (which had 10% of PAE) again couldn't just find the right way to do things.

If in the summer, AEP Iraklis 1908 becomes again AE Pontion with the old logo (it backs out of the deal), will it still be a continuation of Iraklis Thessaloniki FC?? Is a member or a stockholder of Iraklis Thessaloniki also a member or stockholder of AEP Iraklis by definition? No... the deal is not implemented... Again, why couldn't the fans raise the money now and buy some share "in the name of Iraklis Thessaloniki GS" now? why would they have to wait till the summer? and, why will they buy individual shares and not give the money to GS to buy the shares as one holder in the name of Iraklis Thessaloniki GS?

Good luck in EPSM next year.

Notwithstanding my reasoning, Merge as noted before (and in/with relevant section(s)). Heracletus (talk) 04:30, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Look, Heracletus, I feel like you're giving me a "lecture" about what Iraklis did and I really can't understand why. I agree with everything you say about Iraklis, but I believe that all these have nothing to do with its wikipedia article. You mentioned Olympiacos Volou FC, but that case was different. There were two teams (ASK Olympiacos and Ethnikos Olympiacos Volou) competing simultaneously in different leagues. The two teams became one, the name changed once more (Kassandra FC is just memories now) and nevertheless, I don't see a single past tense in Volos FC's article. The same with Kavala FC, Panionios FC, while Chalkidona is just a word in Atromitos FC's article. I just mention the obvious cases, because if we start with every PAE or KAE which changed tax id number, logo and name we would finish tomorrow.

P.S. I just noticed your last question about AEP Iraklis shares (apparently, you do not know everything!). Well, an amateur club (as Iraklis GC) is forbidden by law to be a shareholder in any company. The only exception is the 10% of the companies of its professional departments, but AEP Iraklis is not a department of Iraklis GC. As for waiting until the summer to establish the new PAE, it was in the original deal, probably because it cannot be done now. dimitris08 (talk) 13:28, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

This is the law:

Greek Sports Law [15]

ΤΜΗΜΑ Α'
ΕΡΑΣΙΤΕΧΝΙΚΟΣ ΑΘΛΗΤΙΣΜΟΣ
ΚΕΦΑΛΑΙΟ Α' ΑΘΛΗΤΙΚΟ ΣΩΜΑΤΕΙΟ
Άρθρο 9
Συγχώνευση αθλητικών σωµατείων
1. Επιτρέπεται η συγχώνευση αθλητικών σωµατείων που καλλιεργούν τον ίδιο κλάδο άθλησης, µε αποφάσεις των Γενικών Συνελεύσεων αυτών, για όλα τα ατοµικά και οµαδικά αθλήµατα, µε την ίδρυση νέου σωµατείου, που µπορεί να φέρει την επωνυµία ενός ή περισσοτέρων από τα συγχωνευθέντα σωµατεία ή οποιαδήποτε άλλη επωνυµία. Το ιδρυόµενο από τη συγχώνευση νέο αθλητικό σωµατείο εντάσσεται αυτοδικαίως στην ανώτερη αγωνιστική κατηγορία της αθλητικής οµοσπονδίας του οικείου κλάδου άθλησης στην οποία ανήκει ή έχει αποκτήσει δικαίωµα να αγωνισθεί, κατά τους οικείους κανονισµούς και τις σχετικές διατάξεις ένα τουλάχιστον από τα συγχωνευόµενα αθλητικά σωµατεία.
2. Επιτρέπεται η συγχώνευση τµηµάτων αθλητικών σωµατείων που καλλιεργούν τον ίδιο κλάδο άθλησης ή η συγχώνευσή τους µε τµήµα του ίδιου κλάδου άθλησης υφιστάµενου αθλητικού σωµατείου, σύµφωνα µε τα οριζόµενα στην παρ. 1 του παρόντος.
3. Με απόφαση του αρµόδιου για τον Αθλητισµό Υπουργού ρυθµίζονται οι όροι, οι προϋποθέσεις, οι αγωνιστικές συνέπειες που προκύπτουν από τη συγχώνευση, τα θέµατα των αθλητών, οι περιορισµοί σε περιπτώσεις επανασύστασης συγχωνευθέντος σωµατείου ή διαλυθέντος τµήµατος που συγχωνεύθηκε και γενικά όλα τα ζητήµατα που αφορούν τις ρυθµίσεις των παραγράφων 1 και 2 του παρόντος.
4. Σε περίπτωση συγχώνευσης αθλητικού σωµατείου µε άλλο ο πρόεδρος, ο γενικός γραµµατέας και o ταµίας του κάθε συγχωνευόµενου σωµατείου, µέσα σε προθεσµία τριών (3) µηνών από τη συγχώνευση, οφείλουν να καταθέσουν τη σφραγίδα του σωµατείου, καθώς και να προσκοµίσουν για ακύρωση τα βιβλία αυτού στην αρµόδια υπηρεσία της Νοµαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης. Επίσης οφείλουν να προσκοµίσουν πιστοποιητικό περί διαγραφής του σωµατείου από τα oικεία βιβλία του αρµόδιου Πρωτοδικείου στην παραπάνω υπηρεσία της Νοµαρχιακής Αυτοδιοίκησης, καθώς και στη Γενική Γραµµατεία Αθλητισµού. Σε περίπτωση παράλειψης των προαναφερόµενων ενεργειών, δεν επιτρέπεται η προβλεπόµενη στο άρθρο 135 παρ. 7 επιχορήγηση του σωµατείου που προήλθε από τη συγχώνευση.
ΤΜΗΜΑ Β'
ΕΠΑΓΓΕΛΜΑΤΙΚΟΣ ΑΘΛΗΤΙΣΜΟΣ
ΚΕΦΑΛΑΙΟ Α'
ΤΜΗΜΑΤΑ AMEIBOMENΩN ΑΘΛΗΤΩΝ


ΚΕΦΑΛΑΙΟ Β'
ΑΘΛΗΤΙΚΕΣ ΑΝΩΝΥΜΕΣ ΕΤΑΙΡΕΙΕΣ
Άρθρο 69
Μέτοχοι - Περιορισµοί στην απόκτηση µετοχών
2. Απαγορεύεται και είναι απολύτως άκυρη η απόκτηση µετοχών Α.Α.Ε. υπό αθλητές, προπονητές, διαιτητές, παρατηρητές διαιτησίας του αντίστοιχου κατά περίπτωση αθλήµατος, εφόσον είναι σε ενεργό δράση, καθώς επίσης και από συζύγους των προσώπων αυτών και συγγενείς τους πρώτου βαθµού. Επίσης απαγορεύεται και είναι απολύτως άκυρη η απόκτηση µετοχών Α.Α.Ε. από άλλη εταιρεία του ίδιου αθλήµατος ή από µετόχους της τελευταίας, από το ιδρυτικό αθλητικό σωµατείο άλλης Α.Α.Ε. ή υπό µέλη του ιδρυτικού αθλητικού σωµατείου άλλης αθλητικής εταιρείας.

Supposing that there will indeed be a merger as a PAE, G.S. Iraklis Thessaloniki will be (one of) the amateur general sports club(s) of the new football club (unless Iraklis manages to keep MAE Pontioi Katerini ONLY as the amateur general sports of the new football club), so, it will be able to buy shares. If the football club stays a TAA and the two teams' football clubs merge, again, it will be owned by the members of the one merged (non-professional/TAA) football club, thus again also owned by the members of GS Iraklis Thessaloniki. If both amateur teams are fully merged, obviously again, members of GS Iraklis Thessaloniki will be members of the new club. The only way that GS Iraklis Thessaloniki cannot acquire shares or its members not automatically be members of the (new) football club is if (at least nominally/judicially) the two clubs are not really merged. (Which is the present state. :P)

Also,

Greek Sports Law [16]

Άρθρο 3
Κωλύµατα εγγραφής - Περιορισµοί
[Αρχή Τροποποίησης]
„1. ∆εν µπορεί να είναι µέλος αθλητικού σωµατείου ή µέλος των οργάνων διοίκησης σωµατείου, ένωσης, οµοσπονδίας, επαγγελµατικού συνδέσµου ή αθλητικής ανώνυµης εταιρείας ή ειδικός συνεργάτης αυτών, ούτε µπορεί να αναλάβει µε οποιονδήποτε τρόπο ή απόφαση των ανωτέρω φορέων οποιαδήποτε αρµοδιότητα ή έργο, ιδίως σχετικά µε την εκπροσώπηση, διοίκηση ή διαχείριση του φορέα:
α) Όποιος δεν έχει συµπληρώσει το δέκατο όγδοο (18ο) έτος της ηλικίας του.
β) Όποιος έχει παραπεµφθεί στο δικαστήριο για κακούργηµα µε κλητήριο θέσπισµα σύµφωνα µε το Ν. 663/1977, όπως ισχύει κάθε φορά ή µε τελεσίδικο βούλευµα ή έχει καταδικασθεί τελεσίδικα για τέλεση κακουργήµατος, καθώς και όποιος έχει καταδικασθεί σε βαθµό πληµµελήµατος µε τελεσίδικη δικαστική απόφαση που εκδόθηκε την τελευταία δεκαετία, είτε σε ποινή φυλακίσεως τουλάχιστον τριών (3) ετών είτε, ανεξάρτητα από το ύψος της ποινής, για τα ποινικά αδικήµατα του παρόντος νόµου, ή για αδικήµατα βίας στους αθλητικούς χώρους, χρήση ή διάθεση ουσιών ή µεθόδων φαρµακοδιέγερσης, κατασκοπεία, κλοπή, υπεξαίρεση, δόλια χρεωκοπία, λαθρεµπορία, φοροδιαφυγή, δωροδοκία, δωροληψία, παραχάραξη, πλαστογραφία, απιστία, απάτη, εκβίαση, έγκληµα κατά της γενετήσιας ελευθερίας και οικονοµικής εκµετάλλευσης της γενετήσιας ζωής, παράβαση του νόµου περί ναρκωτικών, περί όπλων και περί µεσαζόντων. Εάν µε τη καταδικαστική απόφαση διατάχθηκε η αναστολή εκτελέσεως της ποινής (άρθρα 99, 100 και 100Α του Ποινικού Κώδικα) το κώλυµα παύει να ισχύει µετά την πάροδο του χρόνου της αναστολής, εκτός εάν αυτή άρθηκε ή ανακλήθηκε κατά τις διατάξεις των άρθρων 101 και 102 του Ποινικού Κώδικα.
γ) Όποιος έχει στερηθεί µε τελεσίδικη δικαστική απόφαση τα πολιτικά του δικαιώµατα και για όσο χρονικό διάστηµα διαρκεί η στέρηση.
δ) Όποιος έχει τιµωρηθεί κατά τις διατάξεις του άρθρου 130 του παρόντος νόµου και για όσο χρονικό διάστηµα διαρκεί η τιµωρία.“ (ΑΝΤΙΚ. ΤΗΣ ΠΑΡ.1 ΑΠΟ ΤΗΝ ΠΑΡ.1 ΤΟΥ ΑΡΘΡΟΥ 1 ΤΟΥ Ν.2858/00, ΦΕΚ 247 Α΄). [Τέλος Τροποποίησης]
2. Οι εν ενεργεία και µη εν ενεργεία διαιτητές οµαδικού αθλήµατος, µέλη των οικείων συνδέσµων διαιτητών και οι εν ενεργεία προπονητές του οικείου κλάδου άθλησης δεν επιτρέπεται να είναι µέλη αθλητικού σωµατείου που καλλιεργεί τον ίδιο κλάδο άθλησης. Ως διαιτητές. για την εφαρµογή της διάταξης αυτής, θεωρούνται επίσης οι επόπτες, οι σηµειωτές, οι κριτές, οι χρονοµέτρες, οι αφέτες, οι παρατηρητές, καθώς και όσοι, µε οποιονδήποτε τρόπο, συµµετέχουν σε διαιτητικό έργο οµαδικού αθλήµατος.
3. Οι εν ενεργεία και µη εν ενεργεία διαιτητές, κριτές, χρονοµέτρες και όσοι άλλοι συµµετέχουν σε διαιτητικό έργο ατοµικού αθλήµατος, µέλη των οικείων συνδέσµων, µπορούν να είναι µέλη αθλητικού σωµατείου που καλλιεργεί τον ίδιο κλάδο άθλησης, δεν επιτρέπεται όµως να είναι µέλη του διοικητικού συµβουλίου ή της εξελεγκτικής επιτροπής του σωµατείου αυτού ούτε να είναι αντιπρόσωποί του σε υπερκείµενες ενώσεις ή οµοσπονδίες.
4. Αθλητής µπορεί να εγγραφεί ως µέλος σε αθλητικό σωµατείο, σύµφωνα µε τους όρους και τις προϋποθέσεις του καταστατικού του, ένα (1) τουλάχιστον έτος µετά την τελευταία συµµετοχή του σε επίσηµο αθλητικό αγώνα. Επίσηµος αθλητικός αγώνας είναι ο αγώνας που διοργανώνεται από την οικεία αθλητική οµοσπονδία ή διεξάγεται µε την έγκρισή της.
5. Κατ' εξαίρεση, οι αθλητές των αθληµάτων της σκοποβολής, του γκολφ, του µπιλιάρδου, του µπόουλιγνκ, της ορειβασίας και αναρρίχησης, του παγκρατίου, του αγωνιστικού µπριτζ και του ζατρικίου µπορούν να εγγράφονται ως µέλη σε αθλητικό σωµατείο που καλλιεργεί τον ίδιο κλάδο άθλησης, εφόσον έχουν συµπληρώσει το τριακοστό πέµπτο (35ο) έτος της ηλικίας τους.
6. ∆εν επιτρέπεται να είναι µέλη αθλητικού σωµατείου το προσωπικό του σωµατείου, για όσο χρόνο διαρκεί η πάσης φύσεως σύµβαση εργασίας του µε αυτό και για ένα (1) χρόνο από τη λήξη της, καθώς επίσης και όσοι συνάπτουν σύµβαση µε το σωµατείο για παροχή υπηρεσιών ή για εκτέλεση έργου µε αµοιβή είτε ατοµικά είτε ως οµόρρυθµοι εταίροι είτε ως διαχειριστές Ε.Π.Ε. ή µέλη διοικητικού συµβουλίου ανώνυµης εταιρείας, για όσο χρόνο διαρκεί η σύµβαση παροχής υπηρεσιών ή η εκτέλεση του έργου και για ένα (1) χρόνο µετά τη λήξη, µε οποιονδήποτε τρόπο, της σύµβασης ή την παράδοση του έργου, αντίστοιχα. Έµποροι αθλητικών ειδών, καθώς και οι µέτοχοι, εταίροι, διαχειριστές και µέλη του διοικητικού συµβουλίου αθλητικής ανώνυµης εταιρείας και κάθε είδους εµπορικής εταιρείας, εφόσον αυτές έχουν ως αντικείµενο εργασιών τους την εµπορία ή την κατασκευή κάθε είδους αθλητικών ειδών, δεν επιτρέπεται να είναι µέλη διοικητικού συµβουλίου ή εξελεγκτικής επιτροπής αθλητικού σωµατείου ούτε να είναι αντιπρόσωποί του σε υπερκείµενες ενώσεις ή οµοσπονδίες. Η απαγόρευση αυτή ισχύει επίσης για όσους διατηρούν πρακτορεία προγνωστικών για αγώνες κάθε είδους, καθώς και για τις συζύγους, τα τέκνα και τους γονείς τους, αλλά µόνο για σωµατεία που καλλιεργούν το άθληµα, οι αγώνες του οποίου περιλαµβάνονται στα δελτία προγνωστικών αγώνων που διακινεί το πρακτορείο.
7. Πρόσωπο στο οποίο συντρέχει οποιοδήποτε από τα πιο πάνω κωλύµατα, χάνει αυτοδικαίως την ιδιότητά του. Η διαπιστωτική πράξη της έκπτωσης εκδίδεται από το διοικητικό συµβούλιο του σωµατείου, µέσα σε προθεσµία δεκαπέντε (15) ηµερών αφότου έλαβε γνώση. Σε περίπτωση που παρέλθει άπρακτη η ανωτέρω προθεσµία, η διαπιστωτική πράξη εκδίδεται από το Γενικό Γραµµατέα Αθλητισµού µέσα στην ίδια ως άνω προθεσµία.

So, I think that members of GS Iraklis Thessaloniki could already become members of Pontioi Katerini/MAEP Iraklis 1908 FC, if they apply and are suggested by 2 people who are already members of Pontioi. In that fashion, obviously, the two teams could be merged without any significant objection (as Iraklis members would be a lot more - or, would they? :P).

Now, about Kavala, Panionios, Chalkidona, Atromitos and such:

First of all, this: http://www.rsssf.com/tablesg/grk-names.html, would be a relevant link.

Secondly, each case is a bit sui generis.

Panionios (GSS) became New Panionios and then again Panionios (GSS) without merging, just using a relevant law.

About Kavala,

"POSEIDONAS NEON PORON :

Full Name Poseidonas Neon Poron-Platamona-Panteleimona.

Founded as Poseidonas Neon Poron in 1979. In 1987 Thermaikos Platamona Joined the club.

In 1993 A.E. Kastrou Neou Panteleimona also joined = Poseidonas Neon Poron-Platamona-Panteleimona.

In the summer of 2004 the Amateur section of A.O. Kavala & Posidonas Merged.

The Team was transeferd to Kavala.

For the 2004/05 season the Club will play as A.O. Kavala in the Second Division."

You are right. BUT, the two teams did merge and Posidonas became Kavala.

About Chalkidona and Atromitos, you're again right, but, again they did merge and kept one team's name.

I said I am for the articles' merging, but, when the two teams really merge into one. At present, one is defunct and the other is transforming. :P I have also made suggestions as to how they should be merged. Heracletus (talk) 18:48, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose merge. As I've said before, (and I agree with Heracletus) Iraklis and AEP Iraklis are two different teams. Seeing as 1) the Iraklis article is in good shape, 2) The team itself is a historic one and 3) Both teams are independently notable, I don't see a reason why both articles can't stay the way they are. – Kosm1fent 07:44, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of proposed association football-related mergers. – Kosm1fent 08:05, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Just Another Opinion: Legalities apart this is a merger. There were two teams, Iraklis and AE Pontion, and there is one team in it's place which is presently called AEP Iraklis 1908.
The new team has 21 new signings, 8 players from Iraklis and (from a roster of 38) 9 players from Pontioi. From the new signings all players stated they are proud to sign for Iraklis, or that they are happy to be back to Iraklis (in the cases they played for Iraklis in the past).
The new president (who was the president of pontioi) himself acts as president of Iraklis not of Pontioi. Read for instance the signing of Natsiopoulos and Papasterianos as it is posted by the official site of AEP iraklis: http://aepiraklis.gr/Επικαιρότητα/Δελτία-Τύπου/98-Υπογραφή-Συμβολαίων.
The new team has full support of Iraklis fans (I really don't know about pontioi) and is using the stadium which Iraklis used in order to serve these fans better. The last few days that the team could not use the Katerini facilities, they used the Mikra training grounds which is clearly Iraklis property.
To sum it up there were two teams with their own history and fan base and the new one should take in consideration both. Since Pontioi does not have a history or fan base to match that of Iraklis, it seems to me that in a few years time everybody will be looking at the team as a continuum from 1908 to that future present, and few will (unfortunately) remember Pontioi Katerinis.
Wiki wise I don't think it will do any harm to keep 3 entries for the time being, one for Iraklis FC as it was until now, one for Pontioi Katerinis and one for AEP Iraklis 1908 (which makes it wrong for me to abandon the Pontioi Katerinis entry). Time will show what the best action is, lets not be hasty.Alhktw (talk) 21:38, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

My mistake. The new team has 21 new signings including 8 from Iraklis, which leaves 17 players from Pontioi. Little does it matter but I had to correct that.Alhktw (talk) 21:49, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Legally, it is not a merger. Essentially, it is a merger, where AEP Katerinis put the tax ID number, the chairman, most of the players, the training ground (for the time being) and its league position, and Iraklis everything else. Obviously the deal was made with the consent of Papadopoulos, AEP's chairman and owner. I don't know if AEP would like to back out from the deal in the future, but the truth is that -until today- there are no objections or any kind of negative reactions from AEP's side. dimitris08 (talk) 22:41, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

When Iraklis Thessaloniki FINALLY withdraws from Delta Ethniki, I could again consider how this is a merger and the two teams are one. Also, if someone produces a contract that's with AEP Iraklis FC, yes, it will prove that Pontioi are no more and there's AEP Iraklis 1908 FC now. If Iraklis Thessaloniki wants to provide its grounds to AEP, it's its own matter. BUT, for all I can see NOW Iraklis Thessaloniki STILL competes in Delta Ethniki and Pontioi MAY have been renamed to (AEP) Iraklis 1908. I cannot find any official confirmation to prove otherwise. Please, do not provide any sports news sites as confirmation, cause they are as reliable as their prospective signings suggestions....

Pontioi's article was a two-sentence-one-infobox stub. But, if you object, I can recreate it and suggest AEP for deletion, as AEP states it's the merger of two teams, which has not yet happened.... Basically, 206 people (the members of Iraklis Thessaloniki) decided to disband their football section based on some vague deal that was/will be signed. Also, noone seems to have seen this deal or know what exactly is written in it. For example, let's assume that the deal is signed, the teams are merged and we proceed with merging the two articles now, will you and the clubs stand by it if AEP stays on FL 2? If it's relegated? If it's promoted? Does anyone have any proof that there's some paper that bears signatures? Can someone say whether AEP is/will be a merger of only the football sections or the full clubs??? If it indeed was a merger already, then, Iraklis Thessaloniki would have rights on AEP at present...

About Iraklis fans............. well, who could tell them who to support or not? Perhaps, the 206 people who were there to vote on whether Iraklis Thessaloniki FC will disband, whether it will withdraw from Delta Ethniki and whether the "deal" with Pontioi will be accepted. That "deal" raises like a couple of questions. First of all, since this is a merger, why will the new team be owned 51% by (ex-)Pontioi chairman and the other 49% WILL be bought by Iraklis fans?? Why will this happen in the summer if the new team already exists? :S The present team is a TAA (TAP)... Can this be owned or sold like that? Will the deal still be valid if AEP is not promoted? Why does information talk about a PAE? Will there be a PAE in the summer?

So far, this describes what happened/will happen:

Iraklis Thessaloniki General Assembly decision

Ο Γυμναστικός Σύλλογος ΗΡΑΚΛΗΣ ΘΕΣΣΑΛΟΝΙΚΗΣ μετά την πρόσκληση των μελών του Συλλόγου σε έκτακτη γενική συνέλευση στο ξενοδοχείο Capsis στις 19:00 ημέρα Παρασκευή 21 Ιανουαρίου 2012 και με την παρουσία της πλειοψηφίας των οικονομικά τακτοποιημένων μελών του αποφάσισε:

1.Απόσυρση του τμήματος ποδοσφαίρου του Γ.Σ. Ηρακλή που συμμετέχει στο πρωτάθλημα της Δ' εθνικής κατηγορίας

2.Τη διατήρηση των ακαδημιών ποδοσφαίρου του Γ.Σ. Ηρακλή

3.Την παραχώρηση και χρήση σήματος και επωνυμίας του Ηρακλή προς το τμήμα αμοιβομένων ποδοσφαιριστών του αθλητικού σωματείου με την επωνυμία “ΜΑΕΠ Κατερίνης” με απώτερο σκοπό την προοπτική ευρύτερης συνεργασίας.

Κατόπιν τούτου καλούμε τον κόσμο του Ηρακλή τη Δευτέρα 23 Ιανουαρίου και ώρα 17:00 στο Καυτανζόγλειο στάδιο στον αγώνα της ομάδας μας με αντίπαλο τον Τηλυκράτη Λευκάδας.

Με εκτίμηση,

Γ.Σ. Ηρακλής Θεσσαλονίκη

It reads:

1. Iraklis Thessaloniki FC will withdraw from Delta Ethniki

2. Iraklis Thessaloniki FC youth/academy will continue to exist (thus, Iraklis Thessaloniki FC will also continue to exist, just not compete) ^[A]

3. The logo and the name of Iraklis Thessaloniki will be given for use to (Morfotiki Athlitiki Enosi Pontion) Katerini, i.e. Pontioi Katerini, in the prospect of broader co-operation.

NO MERGERS, NO "IRAKLIS THESSALONIKI" IS AEP Iraklis 1908 FC... nothing!

AEP Iraklis 1908 FC is at this moment Pontioi Katerini using the logo and name of Iraklis Thessaloniki, as these were offered to them. Iraklis Thessaloniki FC is/should be/will be a defunct team not competing this year in any senior teams' championships, with only a youth academy, something like http://www.championsacademy.gr/.

ENOUGH!!!!

Accept it, call for a new General Assembly OR support some other team. I would suggest this one: [17].

Stop arguing over the reality and truth... Even now, the AEP Iraklis F.C. article should read:

"AEP Iraklis 1908 FC is the new name of Pontioi Katerini FC after Iraklis Thessaloniki decided to disband its own football section and offer its name and logo to Pontioi for free, in prospect of broader co-operation in the future."

OR

"Pontioi Katerini FC.......... ...... In 2012, they changed their name to AEP Iraklis 1908 FC, after Iraklis Thessaloniki decided to disband its own football section and offer its name and logo to Pontioi for free, in prospect of broader co-operation in the future."

However, I kindly ask Kosm1fent NOT to change it accordingly.

Mergers are approved when the season has finished, i.e. in the summer. But, the General Assemblies could have voted on a merger already. However, they didn't want to risk it in case Pontioi are not promoted or are relegated. The fans complained about the Delta Ethniki team and its performance. So, here we are now.

If you merge in the summer, great. If you don't, good luck in EPSM.

A. ^ Thus one COULD claim the club still exists and the past tenses in the article were a (bit) premature, HOWEVER, the SENIOR team, which this article has (so far) been about is DEFUNCT. And, it is defunct NOW/AT PRESENT, even though Iraklis Thessaloniki FC has not withdrawn from Delta Ethniki YET, because all its footballers (but one) have been released or transferred to AEP (wow, just wow!!!).

Heracletus (talk) 22:32, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Sorry Heracletus, but your bitter talk is full of bias, are you a supporter of some other team opposed to Iraklis? Your nickname suggests otherwise as Heracletus and Heracles mean the same thing. They both are produced by Hera + cleos.

Anyway, remember that football teams are not mere companies. To the eyes of the (biased too) Iraklis fans, Iraklis found a president and a way to get out of the swamp of regional football. To their eyes Iraklis 'consumed' and took advantage of what Pontioi Katerinis had to offer. Its not even close to Super league, but financials are clean and nobody knows what other teams will follow the path of Iraklis to lower divisions due to financial problems. Chances might come for a clean club.

AEK and Aris seem to be looking for other teams' AFMs (see Giannitsa and Epanomi respectively). Maybe others will also have problems, Panathinaikos was allready denied transfers so lets wait and see to what other teams your words today could apply to tomorrow. Don't be hasty, history is in the making.

The Delta Ethniki team 'has' pulled out of the championship (so you are wrong there) 'and' the youth team has been dismantled. There is no other Iraklis than the one bearing the demigod to the chest. What is it that makes up a football team after all? A mere Tax registration number, or is it something else? Something that fans can relate to, and be proud of? My family holds from Minor Asia (as yours might too, like your nickname suggests), we know that Panionios, AEK, PAOK etc carry much more than a registration number and a bunch of players.

There will be other people like you, jealous of a team's history, attacking and trying to make fool of the symbols and connotations that every team carries (much like a country, like the defamatory attack Greece is trying to withstand as these very words are produced). I wish you don't ever find the team you support in a similar situation.

One more thing: I too, am against merging the two wiki entries, you don't seem to have understood me there, and, as I allready said, in my opinion the Pontioi Katerinis entry should not have been deleted. There should be 3 wiki entries in total, two for the previous teams, and one for the new team that will carry the histories of both. For example say a player played for Pontioi Katerinis last year and has been transferred to another team this year, the table on the right will record that this player was a member of AEP Iraklis which is obviously a mistake. The player in our example played for Pontioi Katerinis and the wiki entries should be able to reflect that, and it has nothing to do with which team each and every one of us supports.

"All entities come to be in accordance with this Logos". Hopefully we will both be here tomorrow and next year too, so lets see how our words have shaped us then, and where each of us stands in relation his own 'logos'. I bet we have more things in common than meets the eye.

Alhktw (talk) 02:30, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

If you visit my page, you'll see I'm proudly a fan of Aris Thessaloniki. If you think I am biased, look yourself in the mirror, because I have connected this article to the new team's in every way I could and opened the merger discussion myself. However, according to Iraklis Thessaloniki own decision announcement, things are not like that.

Anyway, when I chose my nickname here, I certainly did not have Iraklis in mind. Anyone who would follow my contributions in time here would know that the same standards will apply to Aris, too, if it comes to that. I was the one who added the Beta Ethniki in the honours section there as it is now. However, I have to remind you that the whole story about Aris and Epanomi first appeared in sites relating with Iraklis, like bluearena and such, to appease the fans of Iraklis for its failure to make a deal with Epanomi. Also, to present, PAE Aris has OFFICIALLY denied those stories[18]. Whereas, Iraklis Thessaloniki has not issued any (official) announcements or decisions about a merger (συγχώνευση).

If Aris is ever merged, I will merge the teams articles, or do what would seem fit if both teams' articles are big enough. However, the case here is that a team (Pontioi Katerini) the article of which was a stub, changed its name - and Iraklis senior team was decided to disband. If you check wikipedia, you'll see that the truth (at present) is not reflected as such, with my own contributions being more on the "oracle" than the "present situation" direction, too.

You can check how I plead Kosm1fent not to reflect the present situation either.

The Delta Ethniki team has not yet been pulled out (EPO still mentions it as competing AND postpones its games because it's asked to - don't get me started on this^[B]) and the decision of Iraklis Thessaloniki was to keep their youth academy, which I think still competes to present. For example: [19]. However, since you can attest that this ceased to exist, too, GREAT, then, this article should remain in past tense by all means. By the way, [20] "Ο Εμπενίζερ Χάγκαν για τον οποίο δεν τέθηκε ουδέποτε θέμα αποχώρησής, συνεχίζει ως υπεύθυνος ακαδημιών."

For the rest of your rant, I still blame Dimitris. If you think Panionios, AEK and paok now still carry the history of Greek Asia Minor refugees, I don't mind. It's your belief. I think paok especially carried it every time it tried to mess up the Iraklis fans' demonstrations. You also got it right, I myself really try to defame Iraklis. It's not the 206 members of Iraklis Thessaloniki who decided to withdraw their football team and the chairing committee of Iraklis who disbanded it, it's me who tries to defame the team.

Pontioi Katerini was a stub about the team that now bears the name of AEP Iraklis and carries the logo and name of Iraklis Thessaloniki (which again is not legally true, cause the logo is not exactly the same as the one of Iraklis Thessaloniki and the name of Iraklis was not Morfotiki Athlitiki Enosi Pontion "Iraklis 1908" or registered in Katerini). Thus, i merged the stub into the new article.

Please talk with Dimitris, perhaps, he'll be able to explain to you the current situation in real life. And, probably, he understands that if anyone wanted, they could change the AEP Iraklis to reflect things as they are currently (i.e. remove all references to the old Iraklis apart from the "offer" of the logo and name - which practically consists in Iraklis Thessaloniki not suing over copyright) while keeping this article to show Iraklis is defunct, and then, ask for both articles to be protected, because of edit wars.

My advice is, if you're a fan of Iraklis, next time register as a member of G.S. Iraklis and vote over some reference to a merger, or whatever else you want to see mentioned online here. For example, you want to see the article not saying the team is defunct, raise the issue in GS Iraklis Thessaloniki General Assembly and demand/ask the team not to withdraw from the championship. The relevant team article for the counter-argument would be of Olympiakos Volou who also participates in no championship, but, they have not announced any plans for a merger.... They have one more year to participate somewhere (in the regional championships of Thessaly) before they cease to exist. Perhaps, we should do the same for Iraklis by stating:

"The club withdrew from the semi-professional 4th tier of Greek football, the Delta Ethniki, and is currently inactive, not playing in any league."

However, Iraklis Th. withdrew and actively tries to merge with another team, unlike O.V. which didn't accept the relegation and are still (I think) trying to fight it judicially. So, Iraklis Th. is probably defunct pending EPO's acceptance of withdrawal, while O.V. is in courts and will participate next year in the championship decided in the court.

I have said good luck in EPSM, though, in the case Iraklis Th. is not defunct and wishes to participate next year. In that case, it will participate in EPSM A1 or lower, starting with -6 points (3 games until it was withdrawn, -2 each for this (Delta Ethniki) and next year's championships).

Please, please, check the relevant laws, (official) decisions and announcements and what has already been written, and try to understand it, before you start a rant. So far, I have mentioned the sports law, the official decision, EPO's rules and laws and a few sources against most arguments. If the teams are merged, we could again discuss the whole thing on a new basis. If there's a decision about a merger even. At present, we have an article (this one) that predicts Iraklis will be defunct (but is based on the team's official decision) and another (AEP Iraklis FC) that predicts there will be a merger and that will be the new team's name, whereas AEP Iraklis 1908 FC is the name of Pontioi Katerini at present. And, you still complain about it all. IF there was a decision that a merger WILL take place, then, it would be a solid argument to discuss the articles being merged. And, I imply here that if A. FC issues a General Assembly or Chairing Committee decision to merge with B. FC, I will merge them as I see fit and not wait. BUT, AGAIN, THIS IS NOT THE SITUATION WITH IRAKLIS AND PONTIOI. They have not even decided to merge yet. Iraklis Thessaloniki members did NOT vote on a merger deal, they voted on other issues. It's not my fault, my problem or anything to do with me. I am not to blame for the inadequacies and lack of relevant knowledge of Iraklis Thessaloniki and its members. A relevant example is what happened with the Committee for Professional Sports, it was a clear mistake of Iraklis Thessaloniki that they didn't appear before it, yet, Iraklis FC fans still blame EPO for the fact their team was relegated in Delta Ethniki, while EPO had nothing to do with it. EPO relegated them to Beta and then Gamma. They "won" the "right" to compete in an amateur championship all by themselves.

For the last time, I have to state here, all Iraklis had to do was agree on a merger deal between the two amateur clubs and have it approved in the summer. It could be voted on at present. End of story. No team had to withdraw from anywhere, the two teams could choose the name, logo and stuff and the new team would compete in the league that Pontioi would naturally compete.

Έλεος....

B. ^ Iraklis has already one no show-up with Digenis Lakkoma. If two more games were set on a date by EPO and Iraklis didn't show up, it would automatically be expelled and relegated. For some very very suspicious reason, every game of Iraklis is postponed to date.... I wonder who asks EPO to do this... Probably me, who wants to defame the honoured and glorious team of Iraklis.

Heracletus (talk) 23:56, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Many of your statements are wrong, but there is no point in arguing, since they have nothing to do with the present article. However, the funniest part in your narrow-minded rants is your continuous references to the sports laws, while you insist on talking about a merger between the two clubs, which is clearly FORBIDDEN by the law. Let me get this straight to you: Iraklis cannot be merged with AEP. I repeat: Iraklis CANNOT be merged with AEP. It is illegal. You will never read an official announcement stating a merger between Iraklis and AEP. I know that you can't understand it, but it's ok - you are not the only one.

I tried from the beginning to have a proper discussion with you, ignoring the fact that you certainly are here to mess Iraklis's article up. Unfortunately for you, wikipedia articles cannot depict the distorted reality that aris fans live in. Maybe it is possible in aris's article, which was once written in first person plural. Try it there, not here. dimitris08 (talk) 01:47, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

When arguments cease to exist, it's time for slurs.

If you find the law that states no mergers can take place, we could talk about it. What you're referring to is this: [21], which states that mergers are not allowed for the fulfillment of athletic criteria or to get the licence to compete in a championship.

However, since you believe that Iraklis Thessaloniki cannot (and thus will not) merge with AEP (which obviously is not Iraklis Th. since you propose that's the team Iraklis Th. cannot merge with), why do you propose the two articles be merged here?

I honestly believe the two teams will merge eventually.

Heracletus (talk) 20:31, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

You may also want to read this[22], so you can clear things up in your mind. Heracletus (talk) 21:11, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Comment This is very hard for me to give an informed opinion about. All the sources regarding the issue are in Greek, and reading the above does not make things clear. Is there a suitable link to a synopsis of the situation anyone can give me? If nothing else, I'd be interested to read some background about how a club who were in the top division when I visited Thessaloniki a little over a year ago got in this situation. I suspect that this issue will be easier to resolve when its the start of the new season, and the dust has settled. Right now it appears to be too early to be sure of the right course of action. Oldelpaso (talk) 20:57, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Just noticed the timestamps showing that the above debate happened months ago. Strange that its still listed as a requested move on Wikiproject Football after all this time. Oldelpaso (talk) 16:53, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, it appears to be a stale proposal. (I even forgot about it!) – Kosm1fent 17:15, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

PAE Iraklis 1908 - July 2012

Well, the newco is finally named PAE (F.C.) Iraklis 1908 , having dropped any Pontioi elements. We should just wait a few weeks for announcements to be made and details to be unveiled. Anyway, I am in favor of Merge. Downfoot1 (talk) 09:25, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Actually, we all know that the two teams are not merged per se, but, wtf... :) I hope my version is acceptable... Heracletus (talk) 05:33, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

So practically Iralkis absorbed Pontioi. Good job destroying a Katerini team. :P – Kosm1fent 06:08, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Article restructuring

I would suggest that the Ownership and financing section to be removed from the article, since it is not mentioned in WP:Football Club/MoS. The information contained in the section, though, is useful and could be moved to the History section. Any thoughts? Hansi667 (talk) 05:53, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Ridiculous Title - Should just be Iraklis

No one calls Iraklis - Iraklis 1908 Thessaloniki F.C. inside Greece or outside Greece.

UEFA simply call the club Iraklis FIFA simply call the club Iraklis

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