Talk:Humid continental climate

Subarctic or humid continental if summer lasts 3 and a half month?

The article about subarctic climate says 90 days frost freee periode at most and no more than 3 months of summer (mean 24-hr average at least 10°C). However, this article says that an area with summer lasting less than four months (and winter colder than -3) has a subarctic climate. A substantial area in Scandinavia, Russia and Canada have summers lasting more than 3 months and less than 4 months. Lillehammer, Norway, has a summer lasting on average 108 days, frost free periode is a bit longer, while winter (average below freezing) lasts 5 months, with January average -9 C. So is this a humid continental (Dfb) climate or subarctic (Dfc) climate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orcaborealis (talk • contribs) 09:05, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

It is based on the monthly average of calendar months, so such is averaged out. It all depends on how everything averages out. CrazyC83 00:52, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, but for research purposes more precision is needed, and it seems as the line often is drawn at 100 days of summer. Orcaborealis 11:28, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Charleston, WV & Roanoke, VA

Can anyone prove that Charleston and Roanoke is is in the Humid Continental climate zone? Those cities do have mountains, but they are not high enough to make a huge difference. The coldest areas of West Virginia and Virginia are in the Allegheny Mountain range. Neither city is located in that area. The Punk 08:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

They're much colder than, say Charlottesville, Virginia. Well, I actually grew up in Staunton, VA and then lived in Charlottesville (40 miles to the east on the other side of the Blue Ridge) as a young adult and, subjectively at least, I can tell you that crossing the Blue Ridge makes a huge difference with regard to the climate. In the upper-elevation parts of the Shenandoah Valley, the weather is not that much warmer than it is where I live now (near Kingston, New York, 90 miles north of NYC). Average daytime January highs are in the lows-30s F. In Charlottesville (on the western edge of the Piedmont) most winters are mild, with average January daytime highs being in the mid-40s F. While neither are that high in elevation, both Charleston and Roanoke should be considered continental, since their climates are cut off by mountains from warming southern air masses. Furthermore, Roanoke is a frost pocket below several high mountain ranges. User:bigfun 29 March 2007

Warm or hot summers?

In the Köppen article, the Dfa /Dwa/Dsa subtype is referred to as having a hot summer, while the Dfb subtype (hemiboreal) is referred to as having a warm summer. Orcaborealis 09:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Best term is Hot Summer for Dfa and Dwa (>=22°C), and Warm Summer for Dfb and Dwb (<22°C). Since most places in the latter category still get into the low to mid-20s°C (70s°F) in July (January) on average with frequent hot days, calling it a "cool summer" is really pushing things. Most places with cool summers and away from oceans fall in the subarctic climate. BTW, Dsa and Dsb are not humid continental, they are high-altitude Mediterranean as they are only found in higher elevation areas adjacent to Csa/Csb climates. CrazyC83 01:46, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

How about going with 'very warm' (but not Hot summer) for the Dfa, I mean large swaths of Africa, Arabia, Indian sub-continent and other parts of the world have many months with a summer average of over 30°C, that is truly hot. I would agree that below 22°C should not be classified as a cool summer but a warm one at the very least (or maybe luke-warm!!). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.150.243 (talk) 23:38, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest 'Hot' summer for Dfa, and 'Very Hot' for the warmest areas on the globe, such as Somalia, Sudan, Saudi Arabia etc. Dfb would then be 'Warm' and Dfc 'Cool' summer. Orcaborealis 19:50, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

No -- Dfb suggests a long (three months or so, which is enough for some agriculture), but not 'hot' summer, one with four or more months of average temperatures above 10°C, but none at or above 22°C. Such allows a significant frost-free season suitable for such crops as potatoes and the hardier varieties of wheat. Dfa indicates a month with an average temperature at or above 22°C... and implies a long summer because the transition from a snowy 0°C month takes time through some 'cool' months that may be considered 'spring' or 'fall'(typically May and September -- which implies a five-month summer by climatic, if not cultural, standards). Such crops as maize and tomatoes possible in a Dfa climate with its long summer are impossible in a Dfb climate that has the possibility of a killing frost during much of the year. Dfc climates, in contrast to Dfb climates, have short summers unsuited to effective agriculture. Short summers might allow some spikes of temperature (a 37°C record in Fort Yukon, Alaska north of the Arctic Circle) -- but those temperatures are short-lived. More characteristic is the possibility of a severe frost even in July.

As a rule, summers become warmer and longer as one goes southward through the layers of D climates. Dfa climates are subject to harsh summer heat waves -- but unlike the neighboring Cfa climates to their south they can have weeks of snow cover that allow more intense and more sustained chill than is characteristic of Cfa climates to the south.

Winters that might be long and severe toward the tundra/boreal forest divide near the Dfc/ET divide become shorter and less distinct until the Cfa/Dfa divide near Philadelphia or St. Louis, where snow is possible only as a short-term phenomenon. To be sure, a place like Memphis, Tennessee or Richmond, Virginia clearly to the south of the Dfa/Cfa divide has a well-marked winter unsuited to rapid crop growth in the short, chilly winter. Hard frosts are possible -- and so is snow -- in the more poleward areas of Cfa climate. But we should be discussing that in a Cfa classification. Around the Dfa/Cfa divide one might find that a climatic summer begins in April and ends in October.

The issue is not what is culturally understood as "summer" or "winter"; the words apply to essentially the same months in New Orleans and San Francisco -- and even Honolulu! -- as they do in Edmonton because of shared language and culture, even if "summer" and "winter" have different local meanings in climate; the Köppen classification allows the physical distinctions between groups of climates. --Paul from Michigan 14:51, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Dfb is usually defined - and is so in the Koppen classification - by having at least four months at or above 10°C...although some institutions (National Geographic, I believe) use "more than three months" for Dfb/humid continental. I still believe "warm" is correct for Dfb, "hot" for Dfa and "cool" for Dfc. Orcaborealis 19:25, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, the article about Subarctic climate says that no more than three months (but at least one) have average temperature of at least 10°C, so a location with three month summer is considered being in the subarctic, and not having a humid continental climate - even if three month of summer, as you mention, does allow some agriculture (depending on soil). Orcaborealis 19:31, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Tokyo, Japan humid continental?

To me it seems inaccurate that Tokyo, Japan be labelled as a Humid Continental Climate. If you look at the climate chart both for summer temperatures and winter temperatures (as well as absolute minimum lows), this clearly falls into the Humid Subtropical Category and not the Humid Continental Category. Deneb1978 06:04, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Most of Honshu is humid subtropical, except at the higher elevations. CrazyC83 01:42, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Map

The map attached to this article is confusing. It has no legend and seems to have little relation to the two subtypes described in the article text. BobDively 18:59, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, because on the map, in the midwest, the dark blue (likely the definite areas) extends down to Arkansas, which has a very mild climate. Also, in the Mid Atlantic, there is a very sharp cutoff on the map along the Mason Dixon line. Washington and Baltimore absolutely have a more continental climate than Asheville, Nashville, and Little Rock. The map needs to reflect what is written in the article. Faz90 22:11, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

It should be noted that the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration classifies Maryland as part of the Northeast, giving it a humid continental climate [1]

The U.S. Department of Energy lists the continental climate as extending "from Maryland to Maine," and shows a map where the humid subtropical climate clearly ends in Virginia [2]

The National Climatic Data Center also classifies Maryland as having a humid continental climate. [3] Nanaszczebrzeszyn 04:00, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

States don't generally fall into one climate zone, at least not in most cases. Western Maryland and Virginia have many places where the annual average minimum temperature is below 45 degrees, which is the threshold for continental. But Baltimore, Richmond, and Washington DC all have annual minimums above 45 degrees, which puts them technically in the humid subtropical zone. Little Rock is right on the line, with an annual minimum of 46 degrees. Strongbad1982 16:41, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be better to go with what climatologists have said, though, rather than simply using our own judgements? Nanaszczebrzeszyn 20:46, 2 October 2007 (UTC)Nanaszczebrzeszyn

Exactly. The facts above place central and eastern Maryland in the Humid subtropical zone. This is verified many times over in other articles on wikipedia, and in the average temperature information on the weather channel. Wikipedia is not the place for original research. Strongbad1982 20:54, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

More of Maryland should be shaded, and no part of Oklahoma or Arkansas should be blue, let alone dark blue. According to this map, Tulsa has a humid continental climate, although its average temperature in January is 36 [4].72.81.251.212 (JScott06) 21:09, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Once again, that is not the definition of a Humid continental climate. The minimum ANNUAL temperature must be greater than 45 degrees. A borderline area (shaded in light blue) has an annual minimum temperature between 45 degrees and 48 degrees. Central maryland, including Baltimore, Annapolis, Bowie, and Washington DC have annual minimums ABOVE 50 DEGREES and therefore should not be in the light blur OR dark blue shaded areas at all. They are Humid subtropical in nature. Tulsa has an annual minimum of 47 degrees, which puts it in the light blue shaded area.

Taking the original image and putting it in paint to extend the light blur shaded area is both a violation of original research standard and copyright law. I have reported this to an admin so this image will be deleted if it is not taken down. Strongbad1982 21:35, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Britannica Encyclopedia lists the average July temperature for Western Maryland as 65F, and the average July temperature for allegedly "subtropical" eastern and Southern Maryland as 75F. [5] Ostensibly, their sources are a bit more credible than the opinion of some random contributor.

Oh, and if you delete the image I'll just create it again. The map is wrong and I'm making it more accurate. I mean, it's remarkable how the humide continental line cuts off right at the Maryland border. Wow. I wonder how that happened? Nanaszczebrzeszyn 21:49, 2 October 2007 (UTC)Nanaszczebrzeszyn

And once again, the ability to communicate has broken down. You're quoting July temperatures to justify central MD being continental rather than subtropical. Point is, the DEFINITION of Humid Subtropical climate is a climate in which the ANNUAL average MINIMUM temperature is higher than 48 degrees farenheit. That's the average low for the ENTIRE YEAR, NOT JULY. Baltimore's average annual minimum is 51 degrees, as seen in the article on Baltimore. Subtropical vs. continental is a matter of WINTER minima more than summer temperatures. It makes a HUG difference because subtropical plants, like southern live oak, dwarf palmetto and kudzu need higher winter temperatures to grow, and these plants appear in central and eastern MD but not in western MD.

As for the Maryland border, it is not my fault that winter minima are above 48 degrees in Westminster, MD, Towson, MD and Aberdeen, MD but are below 48 degrees in York, PA, Chambersburg, PA, and Lancaster, PA. Those are just facts. Strongbad1982 23:00, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Where are you getting your definitions from? The Koppen climate article states that subtropical is defined by a coldest month average greater than -3°C, or 0 in the United States; the annual minimum is not involved (other sites confirm this[6][7]). All of those cities certainly have winter minima below 48. Take Columbia for example in central Maryland. Using data from weather.com, its average temperature in January is 31.5, putting it just inside the humid continental zone. Even using your definition, it's continental because its annual low is 42. I agree that southern and eastern Maryland, as well as Baltimore city due to urban heating, are subtropical but most of the central portion is continental. Also, your distribution map for southern live oak is wildly different from the one given by efloras.org[8], and is also at odds with what is written in the article. And personally, I have never seen one of these here in Maryland. Hell, I never even see them when I visit relatives in southern Virginia. Check your facts. JScott06 15:29, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

The live oak map shown in the article is the "adaptable range." The map shown in the link is "native range." The difference between the two is that the native range is where the plant naturally occurs, and the adaptable range is the maximum geographic area the plant can be grown in. Live oaks can only survive temperatures down to -5° F before being killed, so they are rated USDA zone 7. While theym only naturally occur in the coastal areas of the Southeast, they can be cultivated as ornamentals in a larger area of the country (although I agree it is rare to see many outside of their native range). Strongbad1982 16:27, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

The link given above does show that humid continental climates have the coldest month with an average temperature under 0° C (or 32° F). And yes, the Celsius needs to be give first, with the Fahrenheit in parenthesis, because this is a U.S.-centric issue and this article needs to be brought into compliance. Which is why the map needs to be deleted all together. It is only of the U.S. and creates a U.S.-centric tone to the article. That being said, if the map was to stay, the western half of MD would be shaded blue because cities like Columbia, Frederick, and Hagerstown have avg temps below 32 in their coldest month. but Baltimore, Annapolis, Washington DC, Salisbury, etc in the eastern half of Maryland are not. Which means, IMHO, that both maps are wrong. In any case, there should not be a map. the article does a perfectly good and encyclopedic job of defining the areas. 164.92.81.196 16:38, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

this map is completly wrong some of the largest cities included in the area on this map so not meet the requierments set to be considered humid continental--Dzd (talk) 02:19, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Correct. New York City and Pittsburgh are such examples. Press olive, win oil (talk) 16:19, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect claims in article

The article says: "Average annual temperature below 8°C". Where does this definition come from? And, the article says that annual amplitude (monthly averages) is no more than 22°C . This is wrong. The amplitude can be significantly greater. Here is data for Moscow, with an amplitude of nearly 29°C. Orcaborealis 17:51, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Novosibirsk in Russia has an amplitude of 33 C. Montreal in Canada has a range of 31°C. Orcaborealis 20:48, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Moscow has five months with average temperatures above 10°C, which implies a "long" summer, but no month with an average temperature above 22°C, which with appropriate precipitation implies a climate in the Dfb group. The May and September temperatures are barely warm enough to be considered "summer" months by Köppen's classification...but it's enough.--Paul from Michigan 23:26, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Here's another incorrect claim: Nashville and Louisville in the transition zone. Both cities have coldest month averages above 0°C, so they are are in the subtropical zone. [9] [10] Faz90 (talk) 05:37, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Boston as humid continental climate? - Not exactly.

The mean temperature in Boston in January, the coldest month isn't bellow -3°C. It's only -2.6°C. So, Boston can't be considered as an exact Dfa climate, but as a Cfa climate in which the mean temperature is between the freezing point (0°C) and -3ºC, just like New York. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.20.72.66 (talk) 22:24, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

The general consensus among climatologists is that cities in between the 0°C line and the -3°C line are the transition between Cfa and Dfa. This also includes Philadelphia, Frederick (western Maryland), Roanoke (western VA), Asheville (western NC) and Nashville, TN. Cities to the south of both lines are true Cfa Humid subtropical cities, to the north of the line are true Dfa cities. Boston and New York are in between, in the marginally continental zone. Strongbad1982 22:51, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

The coldest month in January in Nashville is January, with an average temperature of 3°C. That is on the warm side of the C/D line. Sure, Nashville has a real winter -- but the Köppen classification (whichever coldest-month temperature one chooses, -3°C or 0°C, Nashville is Cfa. That's not to say that Nashville isn't subject to hard frosts and blizzards; it just gets fewer of them than places with D winters. Winters are too warm to allow an extended period of snow cover long enough to contribute to a polar air mass, which Köppen originally used the -3°C coldest-month isotherm to separate. St. Louis, Missouri just south of the -3°C January isotherm can get snow, but it doesn't have it for long. Chicago, clearly to the north of the -3°C January isotherm, can get a protracted snow cover that contributes to polar air masses. This applies also to Asheville, North Carolina.

It's essential to understand Köppen's rationale for drawing his lines where he did. He seems to have considered agricultural potential to decide where to draw the line. This may be my experience, but the C/D line seems to separate places where three crops can be grown in two years (let us say northeastern Arkansas) from those where such is impossible (central Illinois). To be sure, the "winter" crop must be hardy near the northern fringe of such a 3-crop, 2-year zone... but November and March are potential growing seasons in northern Arkansas, but not central Illinois. Even the chilly winter months have enough warm days to promote plant growth.

0°C may be the freezing point of water, but a day that has a high temperature above 0°C will lose some snow to melting if any sunlight is available. Just because the temperature at night is below 0°C does not mean that snow will re-form. But -- an air mass over a snowfield will get progressively colder over time. If it is not warm enough for at least some melting of snow, then the air mass will continue to chill. Snow is one of the most reflective surfaces known, and any place with wet winters and average temperatures below -3°C is likely to have long periods of snow cover. Such is Chicago in winter -- not Indianapolis, and not Nashville.

Don't expect Nashville to look tropical; it's much too chilly for palm trees. Calling a place like Nashville, Dallas, or Philadelphia "subtropical" suggests that one might expect thriving citrus industries (forget it!), palm trees (likewise) and no winter snowstorms. But there's a clear distinction between a snowy forest climate in Buffalo and a forest climate in Atlanta that gets far less snow.

Change of direction: what do we think of urban heat island effects? In a marginal area, the heat island effect may warm the climate of a city enough to alter its classification from Dfa to Cfa (St. Louis?) or from Dfb to Dfa (Minneapolis?). --Paul from Michigan 05:01, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

You're right. Actually, the coldest month is -1.5C. Philadelphia is a true subtropical, proven here: http://www.idcide.com/weather/pa/philadelphia.htm. Oh, and by the way, we should call all parts of New Jersey (besides the northwestern part), Boston, NYC, and extreme southeastern New York humid subtropical. If Cape Cod's climate is like the west coast, then it's marine west coast. How come nobody seems to get that? Koppen's boundaries shouldn't change because something on the east coast would then be called "Marine 'West' Coast." Press olive, win oil (talk) 20:44, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

The average January temperture in Boston is taken at Logan Airport which is small pennesula thus a miniscule portion of the city with some maritine effect runing 3-4 degrees about 3-4 degrees warmer then the city and 5-7 degrees warmer then the burbs.Boston is therefore a true humid continental city expect for few land strips that jet into the harbor.Is is amazing that Koppen is taken as pure fact when it is a mere classification system that has extreme flaws. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.104.119.76 (talk) 18:16, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

No Dfb in the Southern Hemisphere?

D climates are rare in the Southern Hemisphere for the simple reason that all landmasses south of between 30°S and 60°S are exposed to the moderating effects of open ocean or are dry enough (Patagonia) due to rain-shadow effects that if they have a chilly month to have BSk (cool steppe) or BSk (cool desert) climates. Temperature ranges are generally slight between the zones of subtropical desert and the Antarctic icecap. Thus the transition in the southern hemisphere between the warm temperate zone and the subantarctic regions is ordinarily Cfa→Cfb→Cfc→ET from north to south, Cfc climates appearing where summers are short but no month has an average temperature below 0°C.

Rare, of course, does not mean non-existent. Some highland areas in New Zealand have one month below 0°C... it's in fact an area with ski resorts. It covers little area, but it exists. It has a Dfb or Dfc climate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paul from Michigan (talk • contribs) 22:22, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Topeka

Topeka is in the transition zone, proven here: http://www.idcide.com/weather/ks/topeka.htm. I would consider it humid subtropical because Koppen did. Press olive, win oil (talk) 21:35, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Juneau - and Trondheim

Is Juneau's climate subarctic or humid continental? According to http://www.idcide.com/weather/ak/juneau.htm, Juneau has 3 months that average above 10C/50F and 8 months below this line. However, 1 month is on that borderline. I read that Juneau was the size of Rhode Island on the internet, so the subarctic-continental border would be located in Juneau. However, every map that I've come across says that Juneau is subarctic. Then again, many also use 0C as the subtropical-continental dividing line instead of -3C. NYC is considered humid subtropical by Koppen standards. Press olive, win oil (talk) 22:32, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Because the summer temperatures are not very high in Juneau, I believe it would fall under the Marine west coast climate instead, Cfb, or possibly Cfc. Strongbad1982 (talk) 14:55, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, actually the winter temperatures in Juneau are under 26.6F/-3C as proven by idcide. If you look at idcide, the border Juneau is on is Dfb/Dfc. Juneau's winters are a bit too cold. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Press olive, win oil (talk • contribs) 13:18, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Interestingly, Trondheim, Norway, at more than 63 degrees North latitude, has a climate very similar to Juneau (although Trondheim gets less precipitation), and is on the border of four climate zones: Cfb-Dfb-Dfc-Cfc border, so it is hard to classify! As seen in table below (1961-90 base period):

Trondheim
Climate chart (explanation)
J F M A M J J A S O N D     63     0 −7     52     1 −6     54     4 −3     49     8 0     53     14 5     68     17 9     94     18 10     87     18 10     113     14 7     104     9 3     71     4 −2     84     2 −5 █ Average max. and min. temperatures in °C █ Precipitation totals in mm Source: World Weather Information Service
Imperial conversion J F M A M J J A S O N D     2.5     32 20     2     34 22     2.1     39 27     1.9     46 33     2.1     57 41     2.7     63 48     3.7     65 51     3.4     64 50     4.4     56 44     4.1     48 38     2.8     39 28     3.3     35 23 █ Average max. and min. temperatures in °F █ Precipitation totals in inches

Orcaborealis (talk) 16:34, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

It's take your pick. Even wikipedia can't agree upon the exact climate category for Juneau because Cfc or Cfb are both used to describe it in different articles. In the Climate of Alaska article wikipedia say, "The climate in Juneau and the southeast panhandle is best described as "a cooler version of Seattle. It is a mid-latitude oceanic climate (Köppen climate classification Cfb) in the southern sections and a sub Arctic oceanic climate (Köppen Cfc) in the northern parts." But then, wikipedia contradicts itself, and says, in an article specifically about Juneau, Alaska, "Juneau features a sub polar oceanic climate Oceanic climate (Köppen Cfc)" I think it qualifies as having a Continental Subarctic climate (Köppen Dfc) because its average January temperature is just below -3 Celsius. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.148.149.105 (talk) 01:59, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Cape Cod

Cape Cod and nearby islands get me sick climate wise. Climate wise means I would love to go to Cape Cod in summer but Cape Cod is the reason why some people draw the borderline at 0C. If Cape Cod's climate is like the west coast, call it Marine West Coast. Are San Francisco and Los Angeles on the Mediterranean? I don't think so. However, these places in California have a Mediterranean climate. Also, how about global warming? At the start of the industrial revolution, temperatures were a bit cooler. NYC was between 0C and -3C even then, but climate does change. If global warming continued until it was 20C higher, Maine would have a humid subtropical climate, and NYC would have a tropical rain forest climate. There'd be major differences. Press olive, win oil (talk) 13:29, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

http://www.idcide.com/weather/md/oakland.htm says that this random place called Oakland, Maryland's coldest month averages between 26.6F/-3C and 32F/0C. Its hottest month averages under 71.6F/22C It's funny how no one talks about Western Maryland having a Dfb or Cfb climate. It is debatable like Cape Cod. I think it should be considered Marine West Coast and by Koppen's classification, it would be. Press olive, win oil (talk) 19:15, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

First, Cape Cod. If Boston is clearly continental-humid Dfa, places not so far away (Cape Cod, Nantucket) get far more marine influence. But such places still have warm summers... and if they were recognized as south of the borderline between the C and D groups, then they would be subtropical Cfa and not maritime. Ever been there? They don't have vegetation that much different from New England.

Second, "Marine West Coast" is a set of climates that have adequate rainfall in all seasons. San Francisco gets on the average about as much summer rainfall as Death Valley, although that isn't so obvious to someone in San Francisco. The humidity is high because of a marine layer of cool, moist air, but that marine layer does not yield precipitation. San Francisco may have a thermal regime characteristic of a typical marine-oceanic climate, but the rainfall is so scant in the summer that the drought would dictate the sort of agriculture possible.

Third, on climate change -- the effects of climatic change on climatic zones is itself controversial. It is easy to imagine the tropical monsoon climate reaching Tampa, the Cfa/Dfa line running through southern New Hampshire and southernmost Maine as climate belts shift. But what about precipitation? Would semi-desert climates spread eastward in Texas... maybe as far east as Dallas? Or would they be pushed westward as wind patterns change? There are plenty of tricky questions. Would an ice-free Arctic have Dfc or even Cfc climates supplanting the tundra along its shores?

Nobody has an incontrovertible model for how climate belts (which reflect wind patterns more than anything else) would change. But climate change is likely to be gradual and at most times seemingly reversible. Pbrower2a (talk) 05:20, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Southern Quebec

"Dfa: Hot (or very warm) summer subtype"

Is this a user made list or is based on real statistic? If the former, could we include Southern Quebec? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deus911 (talk • contribs) 01:59, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Köppen climate classification

The Köppen climate classification of Dfa appears in the first section heading, with no explanation of what these letters mean. Only by scrolling down to the bottom of the article can the reader discover that these letters are part of a classification system. This article and the others which describe various classifications should each mention the Köppen climate classification system and the particular code in the lede. This is a bigger job than I have the energy to do. --DThomsen8 (talk) 13:04, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Many mistakes and/or inaccuracies with regard to European cities in article

Many of the cities in Europe listed as Dfb climate are actually Cfb due to winters being too warm to fit the Dfb criteria. These cities must be removed, or another section added, where the cities having winters warmer than -3 C and colder than 0 Celsius are listed, as is done for North America. Examples: Bratislava has a coldest month of -1.3 Celsius link Bratislava climate. Budapest has a coldest month of 0.2 Celsius, even above freezing and is not Dfb whether the Koppen definition is used or the American, link Budapest climate. Vienna has a coldest month of -1.4 Vienna climate Why so many mistakes? Orcaborealis (talk) 19:30, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

About the Alps

The altitude actually is not the determinat factor to the occurence of Continental Climate (Df) in the Alps. While some cities and towns at a few Hundred meters above the sea level, such as Klagenfurt and most of Carinthia, have a typical Dfb climate, others at much higher altitude (such as Napf, Grachen -about 1500meters above the sea level - Switzerland) do not. The position inside the mountain range is actually the main factor. I think it would be more corect to divide in 'Inner Alps' and 'External Alps'. The first one would reffer to Carinthia, Tyrol, western Styria and Southern Salzburger in Austria, South Tyrol, Sondrio's province, Comelico and Aosta's Valley in Italy, Vallais and Grauben in Switzerland, and I wouldn't know where else, probably High Savoy and some other places in French Alps. In the Inner Alps Dfb climate indeed occur, sometimes at really low altitudes, while in external side of Alps, usually, in high altitudes, summers shorten enough to became a Cfc climate much before the coldest winter month reaching -3oC, such as in Napf. Only at really high altitudes or due to particular microclimates, Df climates are found in the External Alps, and usually as Dfc climate, once it occurs just some hundred meters above the Cfc climate area.

Should I change the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.18.157.167 (talk) 19:34, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Question

Is there an explanation of why this article is rated as mid-importance?? South Bay (talk) 03:05, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Map

As someone how has spent summers in Central Europe and Southern Illinois I definitely would not call Central Europe's climate Humid Continental. I don't know if the map is based on any research, but the climates might as well be on two different planets. --67.142.130.20 (talk) 06:35, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, much of central Europe is not cold enough in winter to be humid continental and is actually Cfb - oceanic. Even parts of Ukraine does not fulfill the -3 Celsius criteria, like Odessa. Budapest does not even meet the US 0 Celsius criteria as seen here.Orcaborealis (talk) 16:43, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Selection of cities for charts

I initially chose:

• Boston: to illustrate a borderline Dfa/Cfa case
• Chicago: as a strong North American example of Dfa
• Montreal: North American example of Dfb
• Moscow: European example of Dfb
• Beijing: prime Asian example of Dwa

When editing the data for Pyongyang (primarily to improve precision), I also added a graph at the same time. I do not think it should be included as an example over other Asian cities because it has the same classification as Beijing does, and is thus a repeat. it only differs in the maritime influence, as August, not July, appears to be the warmest month. What we probably should add is a European Dfa example, a European borderline case, an Asian borderline case, an Asian Dwb, Dfb, and Dfa. ---华钢琴49 (TALK) 22:05, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Merging continental climate into this article

I propose that the article continental climate be merged into this article, as the information there is to be found almost in its entirety on this page, plus a great, great deal more.

If the aim of the continental climate page was to provide a description of climactic regions that display continentality without following the strict and arbitrary definitions of what is a (humid) continental climate according to the Koppen climate classification system, this aim has most certainly not been met. 1brettsnyder (talk) 08:51, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

I have made this proposal on the talk pages for both articles, as I wasn't sure talk page to do so on.

Rewrite

I propose a complete re-write of this mess of an article. the humid subtropical article is much better written due primarily to this. ---何献龙4993 (talk) 01:07, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Go for it, please use references though. JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 16:04, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

US and the rest

I'm curious as to why the sections of this article are split up into 'North America'(not even labelled so, just assumed, as though if it isn't made explicit that somewhere else is being referred to, then naturally the subject is the US) and then 'Places outside the US'. This seems to me to be a somewhat parochial way of organizing things. Grcaldwell (talk) 10:58, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Article clean-up

Not so quick with the charts, Thegreatdr. This article does not have the continental/regional divisions that the humid subtropical article does, which assists the selection of cities for charts. Could hardly call one city for each type representative of the world at-large. More on this later... --HXL's Roundtable and Record 15:00, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

That's fine. I did not add Moscow's chart in per your recent edit. However, the "gallery" cannot stay. The good news is that we have article histories for this reason. If it is determined a particular city is representative, we can add the appropriate table later. Thegreatdr (talk) 15:07, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Restored charts, as text is too much complicated for usual reader. This is not the textbook for scientist. It's an encyclopedia. Elk Salmon (talk) 17:45, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

The climate chart for Moscow is incorrect in my view, the winters in Moscow are colder than indicated by the chart in the article, see http://www.worldclimate.com/Moscow 24-hr average Orcaborealis (talk) 08:28, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Personal opinions meets WP:OR. Chart provided here based on stats of local weather stations. Elk Salmon (talk) 18:27, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

The largest number of the English-language users of Wikipedia are Americans. Climate is a very provincial subject. People know the quirks of some local microclimates where some physical feature (mountains, water exposure) make the difference within a few kilometers, as in coastal California, greater New York City, Salt Lake City, Phoenix, Denver, and southeastern Massachusetts. Such is especially true of places on climatic borderlines (like San Diego and Salt Lake City). I have seen the climate of Salt Lake City described as Csa, Dsa,and BSk with some nearby locations (the Great Salt Lake Desert and the Wasatch Range) described as BWk and Dfb. The C/D line depends upon the -3C/0C divide for the coldest month, and the BSk/Cs or Ds divide depending on whether one considers a couple of very dry months as part of the summer. The 'low' areas of the area are just too dry to qualify for the Cfa or Dfa categories.

New York City offers one 'problem' -- of where one draws the C/D line. The -3C isotherm passes through northern part of the northern and western suburbs, and the 0C January isotherm is very close to JFK Airport. Poughkeepsie and Morristown are clearly Dfa. Coney Island is Cfa. Midtown Manhattan? Which line do you use?

...Maybe margin examples would be appropriate -- Cfa/Dfa (St. Louis?), Dfa/Dfb (Minneapolis?) and Dfa/BSk (somewhere in Ukraine?) if shown as such. Climatic boundaries except in mountainous areas are usually areas of transition. I suggest that the margins be within the zone in question and not be places of a variety of microclimates. Pbrower2a (talk) 17:05, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Why must this gallery be continuously readded? If even a small percentage of the effort used to restore the climate chart gallery was used to actually improve the article (by added inline references throughout), this would be a GA by now. Thegreatdr (talk) 21:12, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Morristown is actually Cfa. Also, the map shows continental climates as too extensive.

They should not include Boston, most of New Jersey, and much of the Polish Baltic coast (e.g. Gdansk, and for instance Warsaw is barely continental). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.229.107.122 (talk) 13:43, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Define Dsa

The article currently doesn't explain the specific meaning of the "Dsa" climate. Please add. -- 92.226.27.226 (talk) 14:11, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Reread the article. It is explained. Thegreatdr (talk) 02:30, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Please update climate chart

I understand that this article has Toronto, Ontario and its surrounding vicinity as a Dfb climate zone. With the hot and dry summer that we've been having this year, maybe it should be reclassified as a Dsa climate zone. If this dry climate persists into 2013, the climate experts may have no choice but to reclassify Southern Ontario's climate zone. GVnayR (talk) 17:03, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Generally, climate is a 20 year thing... we'll see but I'm sure the drought we had this year will not continue for two decades. The next closest climate to Toronto is actually Cfa, but the January average is barely below -3 C. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.81.221.132 (talk) 05:48, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Southern Michigan seemed to have the typical weather pattern of a Mediterranean climate, at least for one year. Summer rainstorms were rare and weak, and the foliage began to show the sort of summer coloration that one associates with the Central Valley of California. Then came a brutal winter.

The "Year Without a Winter" may be a good description of 2012... if it should become a norm due to global warming for a couple of decades and seem entrenched indefinitely, then the climatic maps of the 20th century might have to be shown as 'antiquity'. Three years of extreme drought do not put San Francisco into a desert classification -- yet. So far any prediction of what global warming will do to patterns of temperature and precipitation are speculative. If a reliable source has some projection for the consequences of climatic change -- then that belongs in "global warming". Of course anyone could apply crayons to a blank map of the Earth's land surfaces. Computer projections, are alas, no better than their assumptions. Wikipedia is not a place for prophecy. Pbrower2a (talk) 03:36, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Climate is determined over a series of decades. Making a change based on one year of weather does not make sense. At best, it is speculation. Thegreatdr (talk) 02:24, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Humid continental climate

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Humid continental climate's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "CMA":

• From Greater Toronto Area: "Population and dwelling counts, for census metropolitan areas and census agglomerations, 2006 and 2001 censuses – 100% data". Statistics Canada, 2006 Census of Population. March 13, 2007. Retrieved 2007-03-13.
• From Qinhuangdao: "中国地面国际交换站气候标准值月值数据集（1971－2000年）" (in Simplified Chinese). China Meteorological Administration. Retrieved 2011-05-28.
• From Harbin: "China Meteorological Data Sharing Service System" (in Simplified Chinese). China Meteorological Administration. Retrieved 2009-03-17.
• From Tianjin: "中国地面国际交换站气候标准值月值数据集（1971－2000年）" (in Simplified Chinese). China Meteorological Administration. June 2011. Retrieved 2010-11-20.
• From Chengde: "中国地面国际交换站气候标准值月值数据集（1971－2000年）". China Meteorological Administration. Retrieved 2010-05-25.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 17:27, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Dsa and Dsb

Why are these classified as humid continental on this article? They're continental but not humid - they have dry summers. Jim Michael (talk) 14:16, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

If you have a valid reference stating such, provide it and we'll make the change. Thegreatdr (talk) 02:23, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Insert a site with a Dwa climate

I chose Pyongyang, North Korea, as a representative example of a site with a Dwa (hot, rainy summer and cold, dry winter).

The wet winter Dfa (as in Chicago) was shown with no contrast for a dry winter. One might wish to change the alignment, as it doesn;t satisfy me.Pbrower2a (talk) 01:56, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Another round of reorganization, with referencing introduced

I checked in on this article for the first time in a while and was astounded. The gallery was back (see Wikipedia is not an art gallery) and the format was in ruins. I was bold and temporarily fixed it (mainly format-wise) to increase the chances someone might be able to use it. I added some referenced content, and shifted the unreferenced article template at the top of the article to unreferenced sections within the sections which continue to have no referencing. I'm tempted to remove the remainder of the unreferenced content , which is well within the rules. If any information is added without referencing in the future, it will be removed per wikipedia rules.  :/ Thegreatdr (talk) 01:30, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Toronto is both dfa/dfb

Toronto is only partially in dfa along the lake. Most of the city limits lie in dfb. It is incorrect to list that city as a dfa when it borders both dfa/dfb. 50.101.55.5 (talk) 02:04, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

But we don’t have any data from which we realize that Toronto has Dfb climate in its suburbs.

Anyway, Borderline climate is mentioned in the main Koppen climate article PAper GOL (talk) 13:53, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

DSA/DSB HUMID continental?

Was very confused by Spokane Wa and Kelowna BC being considered Humid continental because those are two very non humid areas of the world. Dry summer Humid continental is an oxymoron. They are considered continental climates because they have a high range of temperatures and are too wet to be semi arid. But a dry summer means that there is not a lot of humidity. I think because DSA and DSB are pretty small areas without major cities they just kinda got put into the wrong category because nobody cared. I think that DSA/DSB shouldn't be considered humid but I guess thats a problem for the KOPEN climate people. Always beleive in hope (talk) 22:41, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Kelowna is a marginal example of Df type if I remember correctly. Spokane is Ds/Cs and is not Semi-arid in the calssification that is where the term (HUMID) may come from.

very non humid areas of the world mostly reminds me of a desert or dry steppe. Spokane is not in a desert, is it?

I think because DSA and DSB are pretty small areas without major cities they just kinda got put into the wrong category because nobody cared: They don't have major cities on North America but in the world they do(Turkey-Iran..). But agree that nobody cared.

There should still be a source that states (Dsa and Dsb types are NOT humid continental).PAper GOL (talk) 05:02, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Charts

There were 7 charts in this article. I removed the one for Erzurum because the source was not quite reliable.

But now, A new one for Winnipeg is added. I like the charts to be honest, but isn’t 7 charts too much(3 from Canada only)?PAper GOL (talk) 14:03, 16 August 2023 (UTC)