Talk:House of Lippe

Royal House

I'll bite. What definition of royal house— excuse me, Royal House— includes one with no kings? Was it founded by a royal cadet? Did some emperor grant it the style of Royal Highness? Is royalty here a synonym for imperial immediacy? —Tamfang (talk) 19:08, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you! I'm a bit at loss myself about this but this family can be (and often are) described as royalty, because they were (emphasis on were) a reigning family in a monarchy. Which are sometimes described as such in a sense that doesn't imply a King or Queen. I've seen it done a lot in literature about Princely, Ducal or Grandducal families. But only in English language books. But I agree it's an unfortunate term. Noble won't do to describe what they are. A reigning family is also not appropriate because they don't reign anymore. Princely could be possible, but they haven't been Princely always. Before 1763 they were a Comital reigning House.

Could you agree with "former reigning House"? Gerard von Hebel (talk) 19:43, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

"Former reigning House of a German state"? Gerard von Hebel (talk) 19:49, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

I'd be happy with princely; it had that status for, what, 155 years. — One often reads/hears "royal family of Monaco" in the mass media, but ... —Tamfang (talk) 21:07, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Why not simply "noble family"? Although, if we count Beatrix of the Netherlands as a member of the House of Lippe, then it did include a sovereign. Surtsicna (talk) 20:32, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Because a reigning family (even a former one) is for historical reasons not the same thing as a noble family. There is a distinction there. Also, Beatrix of the Netherlands was not the only sovereign in that particular House. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 20:40, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

It would be misleading to suggest that Beatrix's royal status is a consequence of her Lippe ancestry. —Tamfang (talk) 21:07, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Nobody is suggesting doing that, although it is true that she would belong to European "royalty" from her father's descent alone. Royalty taken in the meaning as belonging to a sovereign reigning family, that is. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 21:10, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm drifting into semantics here and that shouldn't be the point. Anyone against "former reigning House" or something like that? Gerard von Hebel (talk) 21:15, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

What, the meanings of a word aren't relevant to the question of whether it's the most appropriate word? — "Former reigning house" is fine with me. —Tamfang (talk) 22:53, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm not loving former German reigning house, though, which could be read as formerly reigning over Germany – or as formerly German. —Tamfang (talk) 19:40, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, Lippe was a German state (one of many) and the thing about Germany is that it is littered with (former) reigning Houses, because it has always been divided between many monarchies, that joined in a federal state only in 1871. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 00:38, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

• You know that and I know that, but I don't count on every reader to know it. —Tamfang (talk) 09:56, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

I've made it this now: "The House of Lippe (German: Haus Lippe) is the former reigning house of a number of German states" for clarification.Gerard von Hebel (talk) 10:38, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

• Good! —Tamfang (talk) 16:35, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

headship

The box lists two claimants to be head of the House. Their respective articles say, in the same language, that at one point it was agreed that the head should be one Simon Casimir; but Simon Casimir apparently has no article. Is there a tree somewhere? —Tamfang (talk) 19:48, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm not aware of one. The headship of the house however is the greatest mess imaginable. There was of course a set of rules in law until 1918, but after WW2 when Leopold IV died, the members of the House, some of whom had made unequal marriages, which may or may not have disqualified them, made up an entirely new set of rules which they eventually came to disagree about. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 00:35, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Quote from the article Armin, Prince of Lippe: "He succeeded his father as head of the house of Lippe following his death on the 30 December 1949. On 22 March 1953, he renounced his position in favour of his older half brother Prince Leopold. This move proved controversial within the house and several princes started legal proceedings. Prince Leopold later in 1958 renounced the headship in favour of his older brother Hereditary Prince Ernst. Later in that year the Hereditary Prince called a family council where it was agreed by the princes in attendance that the oldest prince living in Germany would be head of the house. So the position went to Prince Simon Casimir (1900–1980). Although agreeing at the time, Prince Ernst August of Lippe, the son of Prince Julius Ernst of Lippe and Duchess Marie of Mecklenburg, later changed his mind believing all princes of house not just those living in Germany should be considered. He ultimately assumed the headship of the house. Ernst August died in 1990 and his son Prince Friedrich Wilhelm of Lippe (b. 1947) has continued his claim. Prince Armin, who has said he did not think his decision in 1953 was irrevocable, also claims to be head of the house, given the fact that he inherited the family fortune, including farming land, forests and the princely castle at Detmold, where he is living." Gerard von Hebel (talk) 00:56, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Ernst-August mentioned above, had a son who also claims headship now. He was born out of wedlock. Which is not helpful. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 00:56, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Two points should be noted. First, in German Princely Law, a morganatic marriage never disinherited a dynast -- although it usually (but not always!) excluded his wife and/or their agnatic descendants. The exception is when (as usually happened in the Imperial House of Habsburg-Lorraine, but was rare in other dynasties) the dynast also voluntarily renounced his own (or her own, e.g. Princess Catherine Ivanovna of Russia) rights. Second, agnates may change the succession order of their dynasty, regardless of house laws, by consensus -- but only if the vote is unanimous. Lippe's succession dispute is treacherously complicated and nearly caused a war as far back as 1905! FactStraight (talk) 18:39, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

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