Talk:Hotchkiss M1909 Benét–Mercié machine gun

Identification problem.

Sadly, the photograph that accompanies this article shows not the M1909 but the M1922. Hengistmate (talk) 17:50, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Nedrutland

In August 2007 you stated that the Mark I was manufactured at RSAF, Enfield, but no citation was or has since been offered. There seems little point in asking for one now, as that will simply produce a circular reference. You will notice that the Wiki article on RSAF does not include Hotchkiss in the list of weapons manufactured there. If you wish, I can offer IIRC six reliable sources that support Coventry. I suggest we skip that and just accept the necessary changes.

Benét was American; his co-designer, Mercié, was French - "the two main designers". These facts and the men's contribution to the design of the gun are clearly described in the sources, in particular on the Arlington Cemetery site which you removed and then reinstated. The gun was a Franco-American design.

The list of machine guns used by the British Army is irrelevant. The article is about the Hotchkiss. The French also used several types of machine gun, but they are not listed here.

I don't see any grounds for not reinstating my initial changes. Or you could do it. I can leave the insertion of full stops to you, it would seem, and the production figures and specifications in the infobox are duplicated and confused. Why not improve that aspect?

In fact, looking at the response to my edits, I wonder why you didn't think, "These seem reasonably well informed and don't look obviously like vandalism. Perhaps this person is onto something. I think I'll do some checking rather than automatically revert, and then try to collaborate with this person." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.81.156.170 (talk) 15:33, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Dear 5.81.141.136 /‎ 5.81.141.178 / 5.81.156.170 - may I call you 5.81 for short? (It would be helpful if you could sign up rather than by default be referred to by a numerical IP).

None of your suggested changes were supported by in-line citations. You say you "can offer IIRC six reliable sources that support Coventry" - then please edit the page to add that info and give a citation. The one source you provided, the Arlington site, does not clearly support your revisions; the obituary of Benet calls him "inventor of refinements and improvements to the Hotchkiss Machine Gun" and "perfected the Hotchkiss Machine Gun"; it does not even say he designed this model, the M1909. Nedrutland (talk) 16:10, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

No comment on the changes themselves, but Nedrutland is correct that sources should be cited in the article. A core principle of Wikipedia is that any reader can verify the information in an article by following the citations. Even if all of us here accepted the material any future editor could delete it as unsourced. Felsic2 (talk) 20:29, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

"Dear 5.81.141.136 /‎ 5.81.141.178 / 5.81.156.170 - may I call you 5.81 for short?" A real rib-tickler, that one. I'm afraid I can't always be bothered to "log in". "It would be helpful (to whom?) if you could sign up rather than by default be referred to by a numerical IP". Yes, I'd forgotten that in Wikipedialand the adoption of a silly name lends authority.

Thank you,Felsic2. If one feels in need of a lecture, then Wikipedia is undeniably the place to come.

I am interested by the sudden demands for a source to substantiate the correct information relating to this topic and by the fact that the incorrect information provided by Nedrutland survived for 10 years with no trace of one. I'm told "any future editor could delete it as unsourced." But look what happened when I did.

Anyway, let's discuss the notion that the M1909 was "French-designed" and not a "US - French" design.

The originator was von Odkolek. Why is it not, therefore, an Austrian or Austro-Hungarian design, merely "perfected" by an American and his French assistant? They bought Odkolek's design outright and "Benét and his assistants immediately began refinement and development of the principles". So who "designed" the M1909? The Austrian baron, the American manager or his French assistants? Bear in mind that the American Benét became head engineer at Hotchkiss in 1887, and appointed Mercié as his chief assistant.

In fact, the first redesign of Odkolek's prototype was in 1895. There was also an 1897 and a 1903, all getting further away from the original. Rather like Benjamin Holt's purchase of the Hornsby tractor, Benét bought the rights because of one important feature and threw away the rest. Then in 1909 another modification appeared, a highly portable machine gun "developed by the Hotchkiss Co." It differed in a mechanical way from the 1900 and 1907 guns only in the means of closing the breech, and the upside-down introduction of the feed clip from the right side, so that the cartridges were underneath the clip. This was just the reverse of earlier models. The gun was even simpler in construction than its predecessors, having only 25 parts. "This weapon was the joint effort of Laurence Benét and his assistant, Henri Mercié." The Machine Gun: History, Evolution, and Development of Manual, Automatic, and Airborne Repeating Weapons. George M. Chinn, Lieutenant Colonel, USMC. VOLUME I OF FIVE VOLUMES Prepared for the Bureau of Ordnance, Department of the Navy, 1951. For sale by the Superintendent of Documents U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington 25, D.C.

"Mr. Benet perfected the Hotchkiss Machine Gun, invented in France in 1882 by the late Benjamin N. Hotchkiss, who made ordnance for the Union Army before founding the Hotchkiss gun factory in Paris in 1870. As perfected by Mr. Benet, the guns, firing 600 bullets a minute, . . . " http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/laurence-vincent-benet.htm

It was perfected by two Hotchkiss employees, an American arms engineer named Laurence Benet and the company’s chief experimental engineer, Henri Mercie. https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2010/8/19/1909-benet-mercie-machine-rifle-the-daylight-gun/

So, according to these sources ,the 1909 wasn't a French design; it was "perfected" or "developed" or "refined". Nedrutland points that out with some vigour, but also insists on "French-designed" in the lead paragraph. Why is he not arguing for something that more closely represents the view he expresses here?

But there is one beneficial aspect. All credit to Nedrutland, who, after the customary rebuttal, clearly did some research and added to the information about the production of this weapon. Hengistmate (talk) 00:31, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

I have now removed "French-designed" from the lede; would calling Hotchkiss et Cie a French company be acceptable? Please continue to improve the article - with citations from reliable sources. Nedrutland (talk) 07:25, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

That's the spirit. Perhaps if you'd put "Hotchkiss" and "Coventry" into a search engine, all this would have been sorted out much sooner. Yes, Hotchkiss can reasonably be described as a French company, but why bother if it's a hostage to fortune? Why not describe it as a company established in France by an American, so no one can argue? Why not include the Odkolek-Benét-Mercié connection? Why not give British production due prominence over the comparatively tiny US figures? Why not include mention of the Hotchkiss steel shoulder stock? Hengistmate (talk) 21:04, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

And why not add information yourself with citations from reliable sources? Nedrutland (talk) 21:08, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

You need the practice. Hengistmate (talk) 21:56, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Benét's name.

It is spelt correctly. The acute accent is redundant - in French it would be pronounced the same with or without it, but it's there. "Benét" appears on his various patents. He includes the accent in his signature. It appears on his tombstone. https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US538227.pdf Hengistmate (talk) 23:41, 2 November 2017 (UTC)