Talk:Homer's Ithaca

Put Paliki in the lead?

Judging from the earliest contributions to this page by Kessler, I gather that this "Homer's Ithaca" article was an offshoot of the Odysseus Unbound article, which was originally named Paliki, Homer's Ithaca. But it became a general article which tried to mention all theories.

Now Nealmcb has put Paliki in the lead, which I reverted, but Nealmcb re-inserted. The effect, as I read it, is to make it seem that the Paliki theory deserves more attention than others.

I oppose having the Paliki theory in the lead, although adding cites supporting it -- deeper in the article -- is of course okay. It would be good to know other opinions so we can see if Nealmcb has consensus. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:50, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for summarizing, @Peter Gulutzan:. I think the lede should focus on reflecting citable third-party opinions. Reverting the edit seems inappropriate, since it would leave the currently un-referenced notion in the lede that "modern Ithaca is generally accepted to be Homer's island by most scholars". Given statements in multiple independent sources that support the Paliki theory, some strongly, it does seem to me to belong in the lede, unless we can find so many other worthy third-party sources that it would pale in comparison. When I look for that, I instead find yet another independent source supporting Paliki: "In the face of nearly overwhelming evidence that present-day Ithaki is not ancient Ithaca, and increasingly convincing evidence that Peliki may indeed have been the seat of Odysseus' homeland, Papadopoulos and Kontorli-Papadopoulou's recently proclaimed discovery of "Odysseus' palace" on Ithaki seems to be a last attempt to preserve an outdated theory that perhaps instead should be laid to rest." [1]. And I wonder if the paragraph in the lede on Schliemann has much support given the newer alternatives. I don't see many recent arguments to the contrary, but I of course may be missing something. ★NealMcB★ (talk) 18:22, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Christina Haywood, G.L. Huxley, Barbara Graziosi, etc., and William Murray, think the claims are bad. Francesca Crema's doctoral thesis is in Italian but one can make out that the dispute is ongoing. Citing an article whose main author is John Underhill doesn't add neutral-third-party kind of proof that there is much academic support. I believe you are wrong but since you are insistent I will not revert again. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 17:35, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Interesting! Thanks again, Peter. Good point about the Underhill reference. Adding some of those other sources to either this page or the Unbound page also seem helpful, and anything more recent also. After all, archaeological research has been ongoing by many teams on many fronts, certainly including in the Paliki area. ★NealMcB★ (talk) 18:29, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

I have to say the intro is now weird, especially since the Paliki hypothesis is mentioned but then it's debunked the subequent line; so it's not clear why it should get a special mention. Barjimoa (talk) 13:50, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

 Done. I have moved the text from the lead to the section below, as proposed. Alexcalamaro (talk) 19:10, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

WP:FRINGE?

are there any reliable sources that indicate that "homer's Ithaca" is anything other than the island now called by that name? The Paliki theory is apparently unsupported, as the reliable sources on this page clearly indicate. Are there any other candidates, or should this just be merged back into the main article? - car chasm (talk) 04:58, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Does this really need to be a separate thread? Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:57, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

I suppose not, the other thread was 3 years old so I opened a new one, but I agree it's really the same issue. - car chasm (talk) 15:09, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

I see. Well, I wrote three years ago that I opposed the emphasis on Paliki but since Nealmcb was insistent I let it slide. Now I think three editors (I include Barjimoa)have concerns.

I'm guessing that when car chasm says "merged back into the main article" the possible target would be the Ithaca (island) article and specifically the section Home of Odysseus. Then perhaps an AfD or a redirect for this one. I think that's a lot of work but if car chasm is willing to do it all, fine.

My preference would be to throw away every word in the lead following "Modern Ithaca has traditionally been accepted to be Homer's island." But leave the rest. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 15:06, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, I was thinking of a merge to Ithaca (island) - I think that having a separate article begs the question too strongly if most scholars think that the island we now call Ithaca is the same as Homer's Ithaca, expecially since the Ithaca article isn't all that long. The paliki theory could still be mentioned in a single sentence on that page with the article on the relevant book linked out.

But I agree it would be a lot of work, possibly an hour or so, so I wanted to make sure there's no opposition before investing the time into doing it. If there is push back I'll open a formal merge discussion first with a wider audience to try to get consensus. I do think we should keep the page history on this article though, so I see no reason to delete, just a merge of most of the content. - car chasm (talk) 19:18, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

I very much appreciate the addition of several sources rebutting the Bittlestone theory via [2], and defer to you all. ★NealMcB★ (talk) 22:48, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

 Done I have just moved the text related to Paliki to the section where the book it's mentioned. Alexcalamaro (talk) 19:13, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Legend removed from English version of map, can it be replaced

The map shown on this page is a translation of a French original, I think (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Homeric_Greece-en.svg#/media/File:Homeric_Greece-fr.svg) which is a copy of the map here: https://www.maicar.com/GML/MapAchaeansTrojans.html.

In the current map shown, the legend has been removed, so it is unclear what the boxed words or the crosses indicate. I find that the the AchaeansTrojans map is more comprehensive and is more consistent with labelling small islands compared to the copy used currently. Should the current map be reworked or replaced? 2601:1C0:8081:11A0:6C2A:6C7C:298E:1A72 (talk) 19:56, 15 October 2024 (UTC)