Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 14

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What is evidence?

Homeopathy is nothing more than a religion. Water has a memory? Then it will also "remember" all the urine, industrial waste etcetera dissolved in it when you drink it from the tap! Mr Biggins obviously does not understand scientific reason. Having a PhD in chemistry, i can ASSURE you that it CANNOT work. The absence of a molecule means that you have a pure solvent. In fact, a running joke in chemistry labs is that the compound could not be isolated, except perhaps in homeopathic quantities, meaning undetectable levels. And undetectable means quite a lot in chemistry these days: modern analytical methods are incredibly sophisticated.

In fact, I'm offended by the fact that homeopathy is still around. It is quackery and should be immediately prohibited. on last remark: There are a number of things that science cannot yet explain, such as the detailed mechanisms of human thought. However, the things we do know, namely the laws of physics and chemistry, which are thankfully set in stone, dictate that it cannot work.Sikkema 08:55, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I have not entered this debate lightly. I am a homeopath. Science is uncomfortable with not being able to explain things and so those who don't actually study or practice its intricate detail but have garnered together a smattering of knowledge muddy the water with words such as improbable, inconclusive and placebo. Samuel Hahnemann knew his discovery might be controversial and despite being a prolific writer on the subject he seems to have carefully avoided writing at length on explantions of how homeopathy works. He preferred instead to call it "the medicine of experience", inferring that people should find out for themselves. Thats what I did. I went to a homeopath who changed my life with a single tiny pill. Suddenly I was on the road to Damascus. Don't tell me placebo is that dynamic or powerful. I had attended my appointment in my usual state of semi-hopeful indifference and was not hypnotized or asked to believe anything. Meanwhile I would not ask a doctor of medicine for an opinion on homeopathy. That would be like asking a car mechanic to comment on the state of your household plumbing. You have to eat, sleep and breath homeopathy for about five years to get close to succesful practice. Then of course there are a proportion of people who don't appear to respond well to anything you give them. Once you get into research it seems to me the authentic voice of reason gets lost. I have made people regret coming to see me as a patient, so inconvenient was their reaction. Eruptions on gentitals that I was asked to assist with removing got a lot worse intially. Skin conditions may aggravate badly. I have seen much much more than this. And people (god bless them) just do not listen to what you tell them beforehand, then rush to their G.P. for somthing to calm it all down and prevent the cure taking place.Nick Biggins 23:59, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Improbable, inconclusive, and placebo are not science's way of trying to attack homeopathy. They are statistical terms they are used correctly in the research because there is an objective point in which those terms are used. rmosler 10:09, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Placebos are indeed quite powerful. Science has evaluated homeopathy, and simple reason defeats many of homeopathy's claims. jtleeusc 2:35, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

You obviously are a bit cloudy on what science is. Don't be afraid now, it will be OK. Science is nothing more than a systematic approach to asking "how?" or "why?". If you claim that homeopathy is effective, science simply says "show me". It should be simple enough to demonstrate efficacy of a homeopathic preparation through a well controlled study (meaning a study which tests whether homeopathy works, not one which studies just how easily persuaded people are when they are told "this pill will cure you"). Every *well designed* study looking at homeopathy has found it to be ineffective beyond the suggestive power of a placebo (BRITISH JOURNAL OF CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY 54 (6): 577-582 DEC 2002). The claims that homeopathy works, and that "science" simply can't see it, are akin to saying "There is a $100 dollar bill on the table in front of you. You can use science to look for it all you want, but you can't see it, you can't feel it, you can't touch it, you can't spend it, smell it, taste it; in fact, there is absolutly no way to prove that it is physically there. Just trust me, it's there." The fact that this nonsense is even debated proves only one thing: that the capacity for critical thought in the world today is abysmally lacking. The funniest writings I've seen are in the alternative medicine journals which try to account for the reason that simple observation doesn't show any effectiveness of homeopathic preparations (think about that for a second) by trying to evoke all sorts arguments on how quantum theory explains it all. Quantum theory? That's like trying to explain how the Lochness monster is real by discussing the finer points of why I like peanut butter.198.11.27.47 05:45, 11 May 2007 (UTC)P. Cogan

Pseudoscience

Judging from the article on Pseudoscience and Falsifiability, for an assertion to be pseudoscience it must be phrased in such a way that it can never be disproven through empirical research. It is distinct from protoscience in that protoscience is at least plausible even if it hasn't been proven or disproven.

The arguments for making homeopathy a pseudoscience are:

• Metastudies of clinical trials and other studies offer unconvincing proof that homeopathy is efficacious
• The subjective nature of prescribing a remedy make falsifiability difficult
• The proposed physical mechanism involving infinitely small or no active ingredients in a dose has no basis in known laws of physics

The arguments against making homeopathy a pseudoscience are:

• The practice of proofing builds on empirical evidence
• Proposed explanations for how and why homeopathy works (or seems to work) are not the starting point for homeopathy but rather attempts to explain observed phenomena.

My observation is that homeopaths differ from, say, astrologists, in that they at least try to make their case through empirical observations. One could argue whether they succeed or who they convince, of course, but they're not eluding the truth or critical observation the way relatively undisputed pseudoscientists do. --Leifern 19:58, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

hm. I would say there can't be any empirical observations. Should these have been made, there would be overwhelming evidence that it doesn't work. PLacebo explains it all.Sikkema 23:53, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually I think that in the end it would be better to merge homeopathy with religion. It is based upon beliefs. Sikkema 23:53, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

The key is not falsifiability by itself but a general claim that one is engaging in science when one is not. And in fact, many homeopathic claims are phrased in ways that are unfalsifiable or the proponents refuse to engage in any tests that would falsify it (also note that the same is true for astrology, while some astrological claims are unfalsifiable, others are not and others are simply made without any cooperation with attempts to falsify them). In any event, what really matters is the presence of reliable sources calling it pseudoscience. JoshuaZ 20:12, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

That is incorrect. The standard for categorization is higher because categories appear without annotation or qualification. In other words, it's not enough to have any reliable source make a claim. It MUST be non-controversial and self-evident. --Lee Hunter 20:43, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

It is non-controversial and self-evident to all but true believers. We have more than enough sources making this clear. JoshuaZ 20:47, 18 December 2006 (UTC) And in any event, as discussed previously what you are talking about is a guideline. JoshuaZ 20:48, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's a guideline. And as an admin you should know that guidelines are there to give guidance and help resolve disputes. You can always ignore guidelines but you should be ready with a darn good explanation if people challenge you. So far, all I've heard is "oh it's only a guideline". Yes. Indeed. It is a guideline. So how do you justify trashing it? Furthermore, as I've pointed out it's not only the "true believers" who have objected to the imposition of POV cats on this article. Several people who are strongly opposed to homeopathy have also opposed the quackery category as have others, presumably neutral, who have arrived via RFC. It really is offensive that you keep trying to portray this as a struggle being fought by the "true believers" versus the rational thinkers. It's more like the people who want to use shrill, ambiguous POV categories versus the people who think the article is better without them. --Lee Hunter 21:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Lee, when we were discussing the merits of applying the Quackery category, and (although entirely disagreeing on the validity of homeopathy) we agreed that it should be removed, you said (archived in the last talk page) 'I would also have no problem with a "medical pseudoscience" category applied to homeopathy.' What changed??! Loxlie 05:56, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

The current version of the article is not in the Quack cat. Just so we are clear on what is being discussed here. --EthicsGradient 21:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I just can't get past the irony of the fact that some of you want to apply a non-rigorous, subjective definition to a field that seeks precision and unassailable logic. Guidelines can be rejected if they're inconvenient; people who subscribe to something are "true believers," a few editors on Wikipedia get to decide whether people are really engaging in science or not. This is a surreal discussion at this point. --Leifern 21:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Homeopathy seeks "precision and unassailable logic"? Jefffire 13:55, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

It must be the same precision and logic that Leifern uses to turn 600 signatures critical of Homeopathy into something supporting Homeopathy. I agree with him that the discussion has become surreal, though. --EthicsGradient 15:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

My entire point was that if a petition expressing alarm about homeopathy only gets 600 signatures across the UK, then there can't be overwhelming and staunch opposition to it. But this is all about categorization - if categories such as pseudoscience mean anything at all, they should be based on criteria that are as objective as possible. --Leifern 15:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

You are making an assumption. See above. I am still waiting for 600 or more signatures supporting Homeopathy emanating from scientists. Rememeber, this is about what mainstream science thinks of Homeopathy. --EthicsGradient 15:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

No more an assumption than the person who presented this piece of news as conclusive evidence that homeopathy should be categorized one way or another. I am not nor have ever proposed that homeopathy be presented as something uncontroversial and uncontested. And this "mainstream science" is such a vague reference - there is no such thing as a monolithic "scientific establishment." --Leifern 15:28, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

It was a quick search, done in a few minutes. I did not present it as a conclusive evidence, but as an example. There are more to be found - see for example (already cited in the article). This is from a board of 350 physicians, scientists and policy advisors in the US, Again I ask you to produce something similar, i.e. certified scientists signing up as being positive to homeoapthy. Bear in mind that asking a chemist, biochemist or physicist whether homeoaphty is a worthwile theory to build research on is like asking them to accept that the earth is flat. I.e., one does not usually bother to poll them on this. --EthicsGradient 15:48, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Sikkema 22:05, 16 January 2007 (UTC) Let's calculate something here. If you dissolve an aspirin of 500 mg in a glass of water, there will be 0.5/180 = 0.0277 moles of aspirin in the glass. (0.5 grams divided by the molecular weight of aspirin.) This in turn corresponds to 166754000000000000000000 or 1.66754 * 10²² molecules in that single glass of water. And yet, this quantity barely succeeds in curing your headache. How, then, can the presence of one (1) or no molecule at all, of ANY substance have ANY effect whatsoever?

Also, I object to the statement that the "field seeks logic". A lot of research that was done by homeopaths themselves was systematically flawed, that is, the researchers knew which vials held the "active" ingredient etc. Furthermore, I would like to suggest that the word pseudoscience no longer be used for the practice of homeopathy, since it still has the word "science" in it.

An old vaudeville joke puts it: "Is your doctor a Homeopath or an Osteopath" "I don't know, but they say all Paths lead to the grave!"

The claims made in favour of homeopathy (namely that it is efficacious) are so extraordinary that they demand extraordinary proof. A claim that the moon is made of cheese does not need to be disproved; the onus is on the claimer to prove that his claim is correct. PateraIncus 21:09, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Criticism section

Shouldn't there be a criticism section? Right now, there are sections on it's popularity, scientific testing, misconceptions about it, and safety, but not much negative about. --AW 19:18, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I read a lot of scientific literature so let me conclude this: i) scientific testing has really (really!!) shown that it does not work ii) if there is any misconception about it, it is that it works. iii) safety is not an issue: no substance can cause harm if it is not there iv) it's popularity should therefore be vigouously combated, by law for example. Sikkema 00:08, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

you cannot keep the fools, say greater fools, in the right direction, when they willingly desirous to go in the wrong directions.user:debbe 27 January 2007, 13:00 UTC

I agree that there needs to be a criticism section on Homeopathy. Looking through the article on medicine, there is a lengthy section on criticism. In this article it may be present in responses to claims of homeopathy; however, this article is at least by heading biased towards the fringe topic. rmosler 11:15, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

It certainly can't hurt. There are still several POV-issues, though I'm trying to lessen them (for example, the report on the NCCAM statement on homeopathy was very... bad. It ignored large sections critical to it, while quoting, in copyvio form, the exact text of the non-critical parts. Adam Cuerden ^talk 12:13, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Adam, you have been present here longer than I have. Would you or someone else be willing to start a section containing an "evidence based science's rebuttal"? rmosler 10:12, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I think reading the article, as written, is critism enough. I cannot see a logical, mentally healthy individual thinking Homeopathy makes medical sense. I think the article could use more work to convince otherwise... oh, wait, it can't, as there aren't any scientifically valid tests that back it up. Secondtalon 15:32, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Rename as "Randi on Homeopathy"?

Since we already have more citations and links to Randi than is reasonable (3), adding a fourth to a YouTube video would be simply bizarre since he's essentially saying the same thing in each case. If we're going this route we might as well rename the article to "Randi on Homeopathy". --Lee Hunter 14:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps before we start an all-out edit war about what links should be included and which should be kept we could discuss general criteria for inclusion? If the Randi link is redundant, some of the advocating links should also go. --EthicsGradient 15:27, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Any redundant links should be removed. It doesn't matter whether they're pro or con. I've worked on a number of controversial articles, and this is the first one I've seen that gives a single supportive or critical individual - ONE person and not even a person with any particular qualifications other than being a stage magician and debunker-for-hire - FOUR separate citations. Of course, Randi should be given coverage. I totally agree that he is a prominent critic and his viewpoint should be represented. But it only needs to be represented once because he's always making exactly the same points each time. I can overlook the other instances, but the video is nothing but a regurgitation of the Avogadro formula, a bit of bragging about swallowing remedies and finishes off with a straightforward sales pitch for financial contributions to the James Randi Foundation (according to his web site you too can support Randi with a donation from 100 to 10,000 dollars!). At best, we're giving grossly undue weight to one person's opinion and at worst it's link spam and completely inappropriate. --Lee Hunter 21:14, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure how offering a link to a can be considered redundant. There is no other link to such a video presentation anywhere else in the article, so where is the redundancy? This article already lacks a "criticism of the theory" section, which would be highly fitting for pseudo-scientific theory such as this. The only criticism offered in the article is in the form a few links at the bottom of the page. I attempted to change one of the links from this...

• A skeptic's view of homeopathy

to this...

• A skeptic's view of homeopathy from the JREF (video presentation)

...and the change was reverted. Reverts such as this, along with the lack of a "criticism of the theory" section, seems like an attempt to suppress critical information of this theory by its supporters. The article is overwhelmingly positive of the theory, and I don't see how the extra link I added can be argued to tip the POV in favor of the negative. A theory such as this which scientifically implausible and which consistently fails double blind tests deserves more criticism than which is presented here. Big Brother 1984 00:33, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I misread the edit. I assumed that you were trying to add a fourth Randi link. I still think the video itself is more like spam since it's just Randi repeating his debunking schtick (well-covered by the other Randi links) and then pitching for financial contributions. --Lee Hunter 01:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

You have answered none of BB1984's concerns. We believe that the Randi video is an accessible summary of his views on homeopathy, which are supported by evidence-based medicine. You are removing the link as part of an ongoing campaign to squelch criticism of homeopathy. I am perplexed that you would attack Randi for soliciting financial contributions while maintaining links to commercial homeopathy sites that sell highly questionable medical products. In the spirit of equanimity, concision, and presumed good faith I have removed the commercial links from the advocacy section, and deleted some "redundant" links as well. I mean, how many different "historical" or "biographical" or "timeline" sites do we need to broadcast your point of view? Cheers, Skinwalker 02:03, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

This is just normal Wikipedia editing. You want to have four links to this one person who runs a business as a critic of homeopathy - and all of them saying the same thing. Is the Google video the most accessible version of his argument? Fine. Let's keep that one and get rid of some of the others. This is simply in keeping with the way all articles are edited. You can't keep adding more and more links to this one person who says exactly the same thing. At some point it becomes nothing more than spam. Regarding the links you removed, mostly I agree that they are not necessary. Links to individual clinics or dispensaries are link spam and should be removed. I've actually found a couple more in the advocacy section which shouldn't be there. But out of the links you removed, there is one site which provides a condensed history of homeopathy. It's non-commercial, well-annotated and I don't see it as redundant and I'd like to restore that one. --Lee Hunter 02:21, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I only count two Randi links in the critical section. They do not all say the same thing. Please add your historical link back; I don't object to one or two well-written histories. While we're on the topic: why is [1] in the critical link section? I'm officially amused... afraid that one will have to be deleted under both of our standards. Cheers, Skinwalker 02:32, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Randi is a stage magician, a professional fraud. Why is he being used to attack...pardon, critique homeopathy at all?....Brian 21 February, 2007

Because he's trained as a stage magician, but uses his knowledge of stage magic to identify frauds, who try to defraud people using stage magic. Can you show one verifiable report saying he's anything but ethical?. Adam Cuerden ^talk 06:50, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Homeopathy in Belgium

According to the current Wikipedia article, 56% of Belgians are using homeopathy. Not only is this number much, much higher than the other countries that are mentioned (Denmark is not even a close second at 28%), but it is completely inconsistent with official Belgian health surveys. Please go to http://www.iph.fgov.be/sasweb/his/nl/index.htm for official Belgian health surveys of 1997 and 2001. Both raw and processed data are available. The 2001 survey shows alternative medicine use in the previous year to be 11%, of which 6% can be attributed to homeopathy. This number has risen from 8% alternative medicine use in the previous year in 1997, 45% of which is homeopathy. I assume that the number is misinterpreted, and that perhaps 56% of all Belgians using alternative medicine are using homeopathy, but not 56% of the entire population as the Wikipedia article states --134.58.253.130 19:32, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Legal status

This could do with a subsection on the UK, given the recent controversial legal changes (which as I understand it made it legal to promote homeopathic remedies with a lower standard of testing than for conventional treatments). Anyone who knows about it care to write it? Ben Finn 14:49, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

POV

I've added a POV tag because not only does the article ignore the scientific viewpoint throughout almost the entirety of it, it also actively misrepresents it by quoting every single rare study that showed a positive effect, while dismissing the majority of studies by comparing them to these flukes in dismissive terms. This is a gross violation of WP:Undue Weight. Adam Cuerden ^talk 22:44, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

1. What IS the "scientific viewpoint"? Please provide documentation clearly establishing that there exists a single, uniform (as you imply) "scientific viewpoint" at variance with the substance of this WP article. Thanks.

2. "Quoting every single rare (?) study that showed a positive effect"? Pardon, but have you had any contact with the published literature on this subject? I have not had much, myself, but what I have had indicates that there is a lively, ongoing discussion of the matter with no clear "winners" and "losers". There have been many scores of studies published, most of them methodologically weak and therefore difficult to evaluate. This WP article cites only a small smattering of the total literature on the subject, not even close to "every single" study. So where do you get off making such statements, Sir Cuerden? Did it cross your mind to take a brief look (say, 15 minutes research) before rendering a judgement like that? Apparently not.

The reason I came to this page on wiki was that I just read the abstract of a meta-analysis of homeopathy studies, published in the Lancet, and it crossed my mind to check to see if it was cited on the WP writeup. Turns out it was not cited. It also so happens that this meta-analysis was rather muddled and came up a wash, concluding... well, not concluding very darn much except that there seems to be more to it (homeopathy) than placebo. See below.

I am also attaching another abstract which questions RCT methodology as a means to evaluate homeopathic practice; to wit: "the double-blind randomized controlled trial (RCT), the chief means by which homeopathic remedies and prescribing are tested, is...based on a linear reductionism that is too blunt an instrument with which to test the efficacy of complex interventions such as homeopathy." Interesting assertion.

Sir Cuerden, the published literature, and the ongoing discussion amongst knowledgeable people, is much more interesting than your bald, ignorant claims. Check it out! Become a READER, rather than a mere table-pounder!

-- Alan2012 16:41, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

................................................................................

Lancet. 1997 Sep 20;350(9081):834-43

Erratum in: Lancet 1998 Jan 17;351(9097):220.

Comment in: Lancet. 1997 Sep 20;350(9081):824. Lancet. 1997 Sep 20;350(9081):825. Lancet. 1998 Jan 31;351(9099):365-6; author reply 367-8. Lancet. 1998 Jan 31;351(9099):365; author reply 367-8. Lancet. 1998 Jan 31;351(9099):365; author reply 367-8. Lancet. 1998 Jan 31;351(9099):366-7; author reply 367-8. Lancet. 1998 Jan 31;351(9099):366; author reply 367-8. Lancet. 1998 Jan 31;351(9099):366; author reply 367-8. Lancet. 1998 Jan 31;351(9099):367. Lancet. 1998 Jan 31;351(9099):368.

Are the clinical effects of homeopathy placebo effects? A meta-analysis of placebo-controlled trials.

Linde K, Clausius N, Ramirez G, Melchart D, Eitel F, Hedges LV, Jonas WB.

Munchener Modell, Centre for Complementary Medicine Research, Technische Universitat/Ludwig-Maximillans-Universitat, Munchen, Germany.

BACKGROUND: Homeopathy seems scientifically implausible, but has widespread use. We aimed to assess whether the clinical effect reported in randomised controlled trials of homeopathic remedies is equivalent to that reported for placebo. METHODS: We sought studies from computerised bibliographies and contracts with researchers, institutions, manufacturers, individual collectors, homeopathic conference proceedings, and books. We included all languages. Double-blind and/or randomised placebo-controlled trials of clinical conditions were considered. Our review of 185 trials identified 119 that met the inclusion criteria. 89 had adequate data for meta-analysis, and two sets of trial were used to assess reproducibility. Two reviewers assessed study quality with two scales and extracted data for information on clinical condition, homeopathy type, dilution, "remedy", population, and outcomes. FINDINGS: The combined odds ratio for the 89 studies entered into the main meta-analysis was 2.45 (95% CI 2.05, 2.93) in favour of homeopathy. The odds ratio for the 26 good-quality studies was 1.66 (1.33, 2.08), and that corrected for publication bias was 1.78 (1.03, 3.10). Four studies on the effects of a single remedy on seasonal allergies had a pooled odds ratio for ocular symptoms at 4 weeks of 2.03 (1.51, 2.74). Five studies on postoperative ileus had a pooled mean effect-size-difference of -0.22 standard deviations (95% CI -0.36, -0.09) for flatus, and -0.18 SDs (-0.33, -0.03) for stool (both p < 0.05). INTERPRETATION: The results of our meta-analysis are not compatible with the hypothesis that the clinical effects of homeopathy are completely due to placebo. However, we found insufficient evidence from these studies that homeopathy is clearly efficacious for any single clinical condition. Further research on homeopathy is warranted provided it is rigorous and systematic.

Publication Types: Meta-Analysis Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't

PMID: 9310601

..................................................................................

J R Soc Health. 2006 Sep;126(5):211-8

Comment in: J R Soc Health. 2006 Nov;126(6):250.

Is homeopathy possible?

Milgrom LR.

Department of Chemistry, Imperial College of Science, Technology and Medicine, South Kensington, Exhibition Road, London SW7 2AZ, UK. l.milgrom@ic.ac.uk

As a therapeutic intervention, homeopathy is the target of increased scepticism because in the main, its remedies are diluted and succussed (potentized) out of material existence. This puts homeopathy seemingly at odds with the paradigm of conventional science, in particular, that atoms and molecules are the fundamental building blocks of all matter. Accordingly, homeopathy cannot work, so that any reported beneficial effects must, at best, be due to the placebo effect. The purpose of this article is to challenge that conclusion and to suggest that there may well be conventional science-based explanations of how homeopathy could be possible. Homeopathy's key principles are first described. Then the double-blind randomized controlled trial (RCT), the chief means by which homeopathic remedies and prescribing are tested, is shown to be based on a linear reductionism that is too blunt an instrument with which to test the efficacy of complex interventions such as homeopathy. The memory of water hypothesis, as a mechanism for how potentized remedies might work, is reviewed, along with some evidence for its existence. A possible rationale for the water memory effect is proposed in terms of a dynamic 'ordering' of water's constantly switching network of intermolecular hydrogen bonds, induced by the manufacturing process of homeopathic remedies. This could lead to a long-range molecular 'coherence' between trillions of mobile water molecules. However, the water memory effect is an essentially pharmacological explanation of homeopathy's putative efficacy. It is pointed out that healing also entails an interaction between consenting beings. From this point of view, an explanation of any therapeutic procedure should include an attempt to describe the nature of the patient-practitioner interaction. From this perspective, a quantum theoretical treatment of the therapeutic process, involving a form of macro-entanglement between patient, practitioner and remedy (PPR), is advanced as another possible explanation of the homeopathy's efficacy. This shows that the reason double-blind RCTs deliver at best only equivocal results on homeopathy's efficacy is because it effectively breaks the PPR entangled state. A comparison is made between the entanglement-breaking effect of double-blind RCTs and the wave-function 'collapsing' effect of observation in orthodox quantum theory. The article concludes by suggesting that the memory of water and PPR entanglement are not competing but most likely complementary hypotheses, and that both are probably required in order to provide a complete description of the homeopathic process. While awaiting experimental evidence of these hypotheses, it is suggested that observations of clinical outcomes would be superior to RCTs for further testing homeopathy's efficacy.

Publication Types: Review

PMID: 17004404

First of all the Lancet has been known for it's spattering of controversial articles, many times resulting in a retraction. I need to do more research before addressing the article you listed.

Is there a scientific concensus for or against homeopathy? If you attempt to earn a natural scientific degree at an accredited university you will most likely have to take a chemistry or physics class. Homeopathy flys directly in the face of deeply accepted scientific theories. Homeopathy is unable at this time to overthrow any of these theories since it does nothing to progress the fields in question (look a the scientific method). So I would say that yes, there is a scientific concensus against homeopathy. rmosler 09:54, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok I am back, first of all this is a discussion. It is rude to place the abstracts on this page way too "tl;dr". Perhaps in the future you should simply add a link to the abstract. Second of all you list 10 year old articles. There must be a great deal of research that is within the past 5-10 years. Have you read over the responses which were listed and the authors replies? rmosler 10:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

"A possible rationale for the water memory effect is proposed in terms of a dynamic 'ordering' of water's constantly switching network of intermolecular hydrogen bonds, induced by the manufacturing process of homeopathic remedies. This could lead to a long-range molecular 'coherence' between trillions of mobile water molecules." - OR, it could be, uh, a placebo. Simplest explanation, and all that.

jtleeusc 2:51, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

External links section

It's not really clear what the headings mean in the external links section. Does 'neutral' or 'critical' refer to the source or the content? For example, the BBC Horizon doc is a neutral source, but is critical of homeopathy. Famousdog 21:16, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Gross NPOV violations

this article REPATEDLY bashes all forms of alternative medicine without cites its source.s for exmaple here:

"In some trials, homeopathy appeared to be no more helpful than a placebo"

homeopaty is a serious medical condition tat has proven to be far more powerufl than an ordianry placebo. i sugest that the editors look up the definitiosn of the word placedo before they look it and usei tas an attack ad on this major protoscience that is on the verge of become true medical fact.

"In the United States, homeopathic remedies are, like all health-care products, regulated by the Food and Drug Administration. However, the FDA treats homeopathic remedies very differently than conventional medicines. Homeopathic products do not need FDA approval before sale; they do not have to be proven either safe or effective; they do not have to be labeled with an expiration date; and they do not have to undergo finished product testing to verify contents and strength. Unlike conventional drugs, homeopathic remedies do not have to identify their active ingredients on the grounds that they have few or no active ingredients. In the USA, only homeopathic medicines that claim to treat self-limiting conditions may be sold over the counter; homeopathic medicines that claim to treat a serious disease can be sold only by prescription."

this section usesing the word claims over and over and makes no sense and insults homeopathic professionals. i demand that this artcle be rewritten. Smith Jones 20:37, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but your assertion that Homeopathy is better than a placebo is patently false. All large-scale, well-conducted studies have shown no evidence of this. Only small scale or non-double blind studies have shown any evidence it was better than placebo - as might be expected, given random chance. Adam Cuerden ^talk 21:24, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

"Not proven" isn't the same as "disproven". See Pseudoskepticism#_note-9. regards, Jim Butler^(talk) 05:01, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

The question here is where is the burden of proof? "Not Proven" implies that you may need to rethink your hypothesis. rmosler 06:34, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Homeopathic Rsearch Shows That IT is efective and powerful

i'm sorry but noted scientist completed a stunning experiment that showed the efficativenes of theories such as watter memory and the devolopment of himeopathic remedies based on said theory. in fact, according to , benevneiste's experiment was incredibly sucessful and a number o experts in the field of homoepathic medicine have analyzed and came up with the same experiments results after even jacques benebistes death. This information should be added to any facts about homeopathy, since Jacques beneviste is one of the most noted contributors to the modern science of homeopathy. Smith Jones 22:08, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

You have no idea what that article you linked to says, do you? It opens:

Nobel laureates face libel suits from 'water memory' researcher

The long-running saga of research on the 'memory of water' has reopened with a splash, with libel suits being filed against three scientists — including two Nobel prizewinners — by Jacques Benveniste, the French researcher who claimed in 1988 to have shown that extreme dilutions of antibody solutions could retain their biological activity (see Nature 333, 816; 1988).

The charges are based on statements made by the scientists in January in the newspaper Le Monde which suggested that Benveniste's research may have been fraudulent.

Are you serious in using a report about the researcher being accused of being fraudulent as evidence of how stunning his research was?! Adam Cuerden ^talk 06:43, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Don't feed the trolls, people. Obviously trolling... nobody seems to realise this on wikipedia, i swear.

Link to Freemasonry

I have cut the citation to the Website of Homeopathe International that was used as a citation for the following line: It is possible that the study of Freemasonry under the guidance of his Patron, the Grand Duke Ferdinand of Anhalt-Coethen influenced his thinking.<ref>[http://www.homeoint.org/history/king/1-02.htm Website of Homéopathe International]</ref>, I went to the site and it did not mention Grand Duke Ferdinand or Freemasonry at all. Blueboar 18:29, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

The fact tag that I placed for this has gone unanswered for a week now, so I am going to cut the statement itself. If someone actually is trying to find a source for this statement, add it back once you find it. thanks. Blueboar 13:55, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Better sourcing for scientific consensus

Although I'm sure the majority of the scientific community is skeptical at best about homeopathy, the sources in the lead section do not appear to be adequate V RS's to support this statement:

Scientists describe homeopathy as pseudoscience <ref>Homeopathy at UK-Skeptics</ref> and quackery.<ref>NCAHF Position Paper on Homeopathy National Council Against Health Fraud</ref>

I suggest we try and find some better ones, along the lines of those cited at List of scientific societies rejecting intelligent design. best regards, Jim Butler^(talk) 08:13, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Better sources are always good. The first citation you talk about (UK -skeptics) looks questionable according to WP:ATT - as it could be self-published (there is no indication as to who owns the page). Blueboar 14:07, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes; NCAHF is self-published also. Not to say that such scientific skeptical org's don't have their place in the sun in WP, but I do think we an do better for attributing sci majority a/o sci consensus views. Will start by searching online commentaries by various Academies of Sciences. cheers, Jim Butler^(talk) 17:51, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, how's this? best regards, Jim Butler^(talk) 10:16, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Adam, I think you're probably right about "many"[2], but we still need to reference this properly as has been done with ID-related topics, or else just let the facts speak for themselves. Sorry to tread on any strong opinions, but since this is about science I'll just appeal to reason.  :-) Suggest this[3] instead. thanks, Jim Butler^(talk) 07:26, 5 March 2007 (UTC) -- update: maybe this [4] is better. Jim Butler^(talk) 21:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

This edit to the lead is excellent. Agree with removing redundancy, and much better way to use the UK Skeptics and Quackwatch refs. thanks! Jim Butler^(talk) 22:17, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

External links

I've done some pruning - most of them were pretty clear cut: If a site's in German, it's not much good to the English wiki. Advertising of individual Homeopaths is right out. If there's half a dozen links to the same site, and a check of that site's front page for possible linking shows it full of misspellings and typos, this probably is link spam. So far, so easy. However, I wasn't sure about http://www.giriweb.com/ - I just couldn't find any particular reason to direct people here. It doesn't seem to have much useful information.

I'll do another run-through later. Adam Cuerden ^talk 15:14, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Merge proposal

Would there be support for merging Clinical homeopathy, Complex homeopathy, and possibly small sections of Classical homeopathy - though I must admit that last article seems rather odd - it seems to say that it's very hard to define, then makes some bizarre assertions about non-classical homeopathy. I... have rather a lot of doubts about that article. Adam Cuerden ^talk 17:57, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I support this change. Clinical homeopathy, Complex homeopathy, and Classical homeopathy were created as POV forks some time ago to present homeopathic arguments without pesky scientific criticism. Though I don't think there is much to merge - most of it repeats what is said in the main article. Cheers, Skinwalker 18:08, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, once you cut the random praise of individual homeopaths from Clinical homeopathy and Complex homeopathy, and the assertion that words are commonly used to describe Complex homeopathy which give exactly 1 ghit if narrowed to English-only (that page), there's no material of note left. Kill 'em with fire and AfD nomination. Adam Cuerden ^talk 22:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Psora-Homeopathic, Veterinary homeopathy, Isopathy

Unlike the Homy articles, these are probably fine - though the first is pretty awfully titled. However, they do seem to duplicate information that should be in this article. Would a merge or delete be appropriate? Also Homeopath, which is... a rather odd list. Adam Cuerden ^talk 22:31, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

By the way, don't get me wrong: I'm not trying to eliminate everything Homeopathy, just the article's splintered rather a lot into pieces that may be a bit too narrow in focus to support a full article without repeating huge amounts of information, so it's probably sensible to have a look at what's out there and evaluate. Hence why I'm asking opinions first before even adding tags. Adam Cuerden ^talk 08:09, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Homeopathy and vaccination

I hate to be a bother again, but it does strike me that there must be a bit more criticism out there of the rejection of vaccination, which the current section ratherpussyfoots around. (and if they don't generally reject vaccination, we should say that.) Adam Cuerden ^talk 08:25, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Homeopathy and Malaria

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2006/07/one_more_reason_homeopathy_is_not_harmle.php —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Adam Cuerden (talk • contribs) 15:34, 4 March 2007 (UTC).

Category:Pseudoscience?

Let's peer inside this can of worms. Should homeopathy, and its category, really be in category:pseudoscience? FWIW, I was a chemistry grad student when the Benveniste paper on basophil degranulation came out, and am not asking the question from ignorance. Check out principles 14-18 in the recent ArbCom case on pseudoscience. Under which class(es) listed in that decision does homeopathy fall, and how does WP:ATT come into play in terms of sourcing what scientific consensus is?

My take is that this is someplace in between psychanalysis and astrology. Obviously the theoretical foundation isn't scientific, but it's not clear that the efficacy question is entirely settled. If a significant plurality of scientists think the case isn't closed, maybe we ought to avoid categorizing the topic as PS. I don't see any undue weight problems in the article, but on WP, categorization does require a certain threshold.

I don't have strong feelings about this, and am not going to push the issue very hard. However, I'm not above starting a bold, revert, discuss cycle to jumpstart discussion, since interested editors don't always follow talk pages. Editors who do strongly believe we should keep the category may want to reflect on what their burden is in terms of showing why it should stay (cf. my comments above).

And let's try to avoid ad hominem argumentation against editors who dare to ask such questions. User:Gleng's page has some relevant thoughts along those lines. Obviously, I'm not as smart as Gleng since I occasionally return to the fray.  ;-) ... best regards, Jim Butler^(talk) 09:41, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Category:Pseudoscience is entirely the correct classification. The question of efficacy has been resolved, homeopathy is indistinguishable from placebo. The non-scientific to anti-scientific methods of practice, along with appeals to quantum mysticism and vitalism can only be called pseudoscientific. Jefffire 17:47, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

On what source(s) do you base your statement that the question of efficacy has been resolved? Pubmed appears to show some signs of discussion of the issue. thx, Jim Butler^(talk) 21:19, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I base my opinion on the consensus opinion of the scientific community as I find it in my experience as a scientist. If there was a serious scientific opinion that the subject had validity then there would be a wealth of rigorous articles in serious journals. Jefffire 16:25, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Jefffire, if your sampling and conclusions are accurate, then surely per WP:ATT it should be possible to support them with a reliable source from some scientific body or other? Pls see my comments below to JoshuaZ along those lines. thx, Jim Butler^(talk) 07:04, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

The weight of best and most authoritative studies clearly indicate that the subject is bunk (cited in article). Unless serious new studies arise to challenge that then my position on this matter remains static. Jefffire 10:10, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

You still haven't answered my question below on sourcing, but thanks again for stating your opinion. Truzzi on burden of proof (the highlighted footnote and the one that follows) is good reading. cheers, Jim Butler^(talk) 22:31, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I have stated my views on the scientific consensus and weight of evidence. I consider this matter closed. Jefffire 14:56, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Understood, but how to frame such issues is not yet settled on WP. I do understand your point about lack of "serious" studies. However, some editors might not consider <ref>Jefffire's survey of his colleagues and the literature</ref> to be a very "serious" reference, either. You may wish to look at Talk:List_of_pseudosciences_and_pseudoscientific_concepts/Draft, where two sections are proposed based on strength of source (and homeopathy is mentioned under "Anthroposophical Medicine" in the second). cheers, Jim Butler^(talk) 15:20, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Unless serious scientific evidence for the validity of the subject develops then the status quo regarding categorisation will remain, till then the scientific evidence and scientific consensus clearly indicated the subject as pseudoscientific, as referenced in the article. Jefffire 15:57, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

A field of study isn't categorized as pseudoscience on account of there not being scientific evidence for its propositions; it's categorized as pseudoscience because it doesn't attempt to validate its findings through the scientific method. By this standard, homeopathy clearly is not pseudoscientific, as it uses scientific methods to test its remedies. The argument isn't whether the methods are sound, it's over what the methods show. --Leifern 16:22, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

FWIW, the references in the article calling homeopathy pseudoscientific are from UK Skeptics, NCAHF and Robert Todd Carroll. thx, Jim Butler^(talk) 17:22, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Quoting from the ArbCom decision "Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience." JoshuaZ 18:07, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I was referring to that decision when I suggested homeopathy was somewhere between astrology and psychoanalysis. It also says: "Theories which have a substantial following, such as psychoanalysis, but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect, but generally should not be so characterized."

What do you think is an appropriate source for what is "generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community"? Since homeopathy is pretty well known, I'd think some scientific bodies should have stuck a fork in it, as they have with ID. I think that WP categorization also partly depends on how many scientists think the jury is still out (i.e., do they constitute a "significant minority" in WP jargon; clearly, for astrology, it's a "tiny minority" per obvious lack of peer-reviewed discussion). thx, Jim Butler^(talk) 21:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Homeopathic repertory

I've proposed this for deletion as, frankly, it seems to be full of lies, though I doubt they're intentional ones. It talks at length about books being highly important in the modern day that nonetheless are almost unknown to Google. Adam Cuerden ^talk 11:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Also List of important homeopaths, Homeopath, Drug dynamization, John Henry Clarke, and Materia Medica Pura. Please tell me if I'm going too far. Adam Cuerden ^talk 13:28, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

You're going too far. Even astrology has lots of articles (and series boxes) that are retained simply for historical interest. Same principle should apply here, even if there were no clinical or research interest in the topic today. WP is not paper. Appreciate the collaborative spirit of your asking, btw. best regards, Jim Butler^(talk) 18:58, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Right-o. I'll stop at this point, though I do think that, at the least, the sub articles need a lot of improvement. Adam Cuerden ^talk 19:44, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! Certainly agree re their needing improvement (would tend to favor merging over too much deleting or pruning unless stuff is flagrantly noncompliant; better perhaps to leave some sort of scaffolding that others might add to later). cheers, Jim Butler^(talk) 01:13, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

George Vithoulkas

[Moved to Archive, this page is not a venue for attacking editors, and the discussion does not appear to be about improving this article. Guettarda 16:16, 17 March 2007 (UTC)]

This discussion has been archived. Please do not modify it.
The following is an archived debate. Please do not modify it.
I just wanted to note that the Vithoulkas article has again been nominated for deletion. Apparently having your books translated into twenty languages, 100,000 hits on Google, hundreds of citations in books from mainstream publishers by other authors and in journal articles, winning international acclaim and awards, sold out speaking tours around the world, etc etc is no longer enough to establish notability. I'm just about done with Wikipedia. It was fun while it lasted. --Lee Hunter 00:08, 22 March 2007 (UTC) It's a matter of finding independant, non-trivial, reliable sources. He has independant sources that are trivial, and non-trivial sources that aren't independant. That's the problem, ye see. Adam Cuerden talk 00:56, 22 March 2007 (UTC) I'm sorry but that's just such a steaming pile, I can't let it pass. There are hundreds of books that reference Vithoulkas. You're trying to say that every last one of them is trivial or not independent? Your single, solitary mind-boggling criteria for establishing whether a book is trivial or independent is whether it mentions Vithoulkas. If it mentions Vithoulkas it must be trivial or it must not be independent. That's pretty, uh, stunning I must say. Life's too short to continue these stupid and endless arguments. It's all yours Adam. Go ahead and delete it. --Lee Hunter 01:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC) Stop. Don't make personal attacks. Discuss George Vithoulkas on the relevant article talk page, or at its AfD. Not here. MastCell Talk 02:56, 22 March 2007 (UTC) Let's be clear: I'm happy to accept homeopathy books as a reference, but one sentence on the particular subject in question makes it a trivial source for information on that subject. That's the problem with Lee's books, and why JzG's AfD'll probably succeed. Adam Cuerden talk 17:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC) I have the authority from Professor George Vithoulkas to ask you to delete his article from your wikipedia immediately. He considers this discussion unfair and bias. Maria Chorianopoulou, PhD, Assistant to Professor George Vithoulkas,maria@vithoulkas.com213.5.45.122 16:08, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Edits

I've removed one section that was basically tracking membership in one British Homeopathic orginisation and claiming its rise followed the rise of Homeopathy in Britain, despite it starting in 1950. Particularly odd as it was supposedly a section on the whole world. The section on "Popularity of Homeopathy" had cites from over a decade ago being used to talk about Homeopathy's current growth rates - I've not deleted that - maybe it should be - but I rewrote the sentence to make it clear exactly when that growth was mentioned. The section on the NCCAM was cherrypicking a bit, added the rest in. Admittedly, you could probably get more positive statements from the NHS reference than are in there, but all the positive statements are prefixed with "Homeopaths claim that..." "According to homeopaths...." and such like, so... well, they seem to be trying to distance themselves from the homeopathic claims, while reporting them - it's a "Health Encyclopedia" entry, ye see... I'm not sure. Add in more if you think it justified, but... Adam Cuerden ^talk 15:23, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Sources

I think these would be useful in a criticism section. They seem good reliable sources. (Not, of course the one linked, but all the ones he quotes from. Ignore the few bad jokes.) Any objections, or things that should be taken into consideration when doing so? Adam Cuerden ^talk 22:37, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Revert

I've reverted a newly-made assertion here: [5] It's very easy with a simple google search to find information on the product having to be withdrawn. If it's so easy to find the official decision banning it, why wouldn't a review be easily found? Adam Cuerden ^talk 04:58, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I reverted an edit about the equivalent volume of water needed for a 30C dilution. (The line now reads, "Furthermore, 1CC of a solute diluted to a 30C dilution would be diluted into a volume of solvent (water) equal to that of a cube 10¹⁴ meters on a side, or about 105 light years.") This is correct. It is indeed 1.18 million cubic light years, not liters. Also, I don't think a citation is needed since anyone can do the math and look up how big a light year is. Gmalivuk 16:13, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Vet homeopathy merge

I saw a tag to merge Vet homeopathy to this one. I think that it probably deserves its own article. It has its own players, associations, etc. Interestingly enough, in the US, you have to be a Vet to do it, unlike the human version. The article could be improved, and should be expanded, but I don't think it should be merged. Abridged ^talk 21:55, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

if a merge was not wanted then why dis someone aon regquest it by putting the a "merge this article" tag on the article!?? Smith Jones 19:56, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I think some people would like a merge and some would not. I personally think a sep article is imdicated for the reasons above. The artuicle needs work, however (forgive typos; cut my finger cooking) Abridged ^talk 20:01, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Literature on basophile stimulation

However, other investigators failed to find any effect from these ultra-dilute solutions and suggested that methodological problems accounted for the positive results.[103]

This quote is simply incorrect. First: It is one group/publication (not "other investigators"). Second" the investigators fail to find a large effect, not "any" effect. Third: Guggisberg et al. do not jump at the conclusion that "methodological problems account for the positive results", but rather list a series of possible reasons for the different results, including the fact that they tested only one donor, whereas inter-individual differences were suspected to affect results. The cocnlusion of the article is

Additional studies using strictly controlled experimental conditions, several blood donors and an improved methodology are needed to elucidate the open questions.

.

As it is a very heated topic, I don't want to change that sentence myself, but rather invite the editor who put it there, to re-read the article in full and possibly change it accrodingly. To carify one thing: I'm a professional scientist, and one of the thing I detest most is people paying lip service to the scientific method and failing at it in one of its majoir tenets, namely that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. A case in point is the "repetition" of Madeleine Ennis's experiment done by the BBC Show Horizon with the approval and partecipation of James Randi. Dr. Ennis comments about the show, along with a list of methodological differences, explain the problem: "I never agreed to approve his protocol i.e. assess if the study design was adequate to assess the expected differences" E-mail from Professor Ennis. Science is done above all with intellectual honesty and any person seeking an answer, rather than a confirmation of his own ideas, should have cried foul in this case. Disciple of the Eighth Day 14:45, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

This point is well made, but has been conveniently ignored. I've tagged the section as a reminder. Berberis 05:37, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Defined?

So, let me get this straight... Homeopathy is giving people things that make healthy people sick in a diluted form with the belief that it will make people well? I get that homeopathy deals a lot with heavily diluted substances, but the definition is so poorly worded (IMO) that it's hard to be certain that it's saying what it's really saying. The sentence: "is a controversial method of alternative medicine that attempts to treat 'like with like.'" does not really appear to be saying anything useful. What does "treating like with like" really mean? "Homeopathy attempts to treat the sick with extremely diluted agents that, in undiluted doses, produce similar symptoms in the healthy." Take, for example, food poisoning. Does homeopathy suggest that you could cure someone of food poisoning by giving them diluted poisoned food? RobertM525 05:07, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, except that it's diluted to the point that there are no actual molecules of the original substance left (didn't you read the article?). Now you see why reputable scientists consider it to be utter nonsense. Maybe it could have been plausible when little was known about chemistry and biology, but it's been shown to be idiocy for so long that it's amazing people still follow it. KarlM 06:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

"at best"

I'm with Lee on this one. "At best" is POV. We should be summarizing the studies that are available at this point to the degree appropriate for Wikipedia and leave our judgements out of it. Abridged ^talk 16:44, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

That may be, but the evidence is not equivocal, the evidence is actually in favour of it being around the level of placebo, with a few anomlies at about the rate predicted by chance, and several badly-made studies that may not even have an actual control.

If we remove "at best", we should remove equivocal as well. Adam Cuerden ^talk 09:11, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

"Equivocal at best" is a poor summary of the existing peer-reviewed literature on homeopathic efficacy. No double-blind, randomized study has demonstrated efficacy above the level expected by a placebo. That being said, I endorse Jefffire's current version: [6]. It removes all editorializing, and states simple, uncontroversial facts. Cheers, Skinwalker 13:03, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, that's a sensible solution. --Jim Butler^(talk) 20:25, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

On the subject of that section, what does "Several examples of publications in high ranking journals, that are later withdrawn, are known." mean? Adam Cuerden ^talk 13:29, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I think it's supposed to refer to cases such as Benveniste's (sp.) Nature paper. Wording/sourcing obviously needs improvement. --Jim Butler^(talk) 20:25, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a huge problem with the Jefferie version. I also don't understand the sentence above. Abridged ^talk 21:39, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Categorization redux

Right on schedule with WP:BRD, I see[7].  :-) Continuing from above: I am, for the record, skeptical of homeopathy, but am also unhappy with WP's sloppy overuse of categories. Note that omitting category:pseudoscience does not mean that WP endorses a subject's scientific status. However, using it ought to be based on more than a small samping of opinion.

Quoting from the NPOV FAQ:

• Generally considered pseudoscience: Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience.
• Questionable science: Theories which have a substantial following, such as psychoanalysis, but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect, but generally should not be so characterized.

There are good sources representative of scientific consensus (e.g. Academies of Science) saying topics like astrology and intelligent design are pseudoscientific. Can we find comparable sourcing here? I think the article would be stronger if we could. And to the extent we take sourcing seriously, readers will be inclined to take WP more seriously too. thx, Jim Butler^(talk) 00:51, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

putting the category above on this article is not by any stretch npov. i think if the cat goes on, the article should have an npov tag permanently, so people should madke their choice. the text is clear enough about the state of the science currently on homeopathy. Abridged ^talk 13:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC) note: i placed the tag. Abridged ^talk 13:19, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

The National Science Foundation and the American Medical Association have characterized homeopathy as pseudoscientific[8] and acknowledge that the efficacy of homeopathic preparations have not been proven[9], respectively. Elsewhere, the editor-in-cheif of FASEB, a highly respected medical journal in the UK, published an essay[10] detailing a strong argument against homeopathic pseudoscience. A group of prominent doctors and medical researchers published an article in The Times that described homeopathy as "an implausible treatment for which over a dozen systematic reviews have failed to produce convincing evidence of effectiveness".[11]

Furthermore, (and this is just my opinion, but I'm sure I can find cites for each point I make here) homeopathy fits accepted definitions of pseudoscience to a T:

• Lack of falsifiability. The failure of a particular remedy is attributed to the incorrect selection of said remedy, not the failure of the method itself.
• Assertion of vague and unprecise claims.
• Lack of peer review. In many cases, homeopathic materials are self-published.
• Lack of reproducibility.
• Conspiratorial claims and accusations of persecution. Assertions that the AMA purposefully destroyed homeopathy in the early 20th century are quite plentiful.

I can keep going, but you get the point. The Arbcom ruling quoted above lets us categorize theories that are generally accepted as pseudoscientific by the scientific community as pseudoscience. This article does not fall under the the second category of "Questionable Science", since there is evidence that homeopathy is considered ineffective and pseudoscientific by scientific consensus. This article belongs in the pseudoscience category per the sources I have given. Cheers, Skinwalker 16:23, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Man, I hate it when people provide these BS citations that supposedly support their position. Unless you actually take the time to read them you'd think they were real. For example, take Skinwalker's statement "The National Science Foundation and the American Medical Association have characterized homeopathy as pseudoscientific[12]" But when you read the cite carefully it says absolutely nothing of the sort. There is a passing mention that another group (CSICOP) thinks that homeopathy is pseudoscientific (CSICOP believes that ALL alternative medicine is pseudoscientific) but Skinwalker's cite doesn't show either NSF or AMA characterizing homeopathy as anything. --192.150.5.150 18:24, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your opinion, Lee. The NSF report does quote CSICOP material, but since it appears unexpurgated and properly attributed in an official NSF report it expresses the position of NSF as well. I don't appreciate your ad hominem accusations of improper sourcing, and I urge you to log in when you edit homeopathy-related pages - you give the strong impression of using anonymous IPs to obscure your editing patterns. Cheers, Skinwalker 18:30, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Er, nice try, but the page clearly doesn't say anything remotely approaching what you claimed. If you had said that CSICOP characterizes homeopathy as pseudoscience you would have been 100% right but your assertion that the page shows NSF and AMA characterize it as pseudoscience is 100% wrong. For goodness sake, the AMA is only mentioned in passing and not with ANY connection to either homeopathy or the word "pseudoscience". It's not an ad hominem attack. You clearly gave us a misleading cite. But maybe I misread the page. Perhaps you could do us a favor and point out the exact part of the page that supports your position. --192.150.5.150 19:08, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Skinwalker, anyone with involvement in clinical research would kmow what FASEB is, so I guess you are not in the field. The def surely fits, but the category would have also applied to any school of thought asserting that the earth was round or rotated around the sun at different points in time in our history. i would argue for letting let the evidence or lack of it speak for itself and avoid negative labels from one field to be applied to another. i wasn't aware of the arbcom discussion, but do feel that the article needs to be tagged if this judgemental category is on it.Abridged ^talk 18:34, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

(redent) Skinwalker, thanks very much for taking the time to cite those sources. Comments:

• The NSF source[13] quotes other sources, but I don't agree that it can be taken as an official endorsement of their views.
• The AMA source[14] is excellent in terms of an official statement from an organized body. It does plainly say homeopathy hasn't been proven effective. I'm not sure that's quite synonymous with saying it's pseudoscientific. On the one hand, sure, one can't prove a negative, and overpromoting unproven things is seen as quackery and is bad. On the other, doctors experiment all the time, and it isn't inevitably anti- or unscientific (or unethical) to use an unproven treatment.
• The sources cited by the NSF (CSICOP and Park), as well as the FASEB[15] and Times[16] sources, all are heavily subject to self-selection bias (in the same way that, e.g., the Literary Digest mail-in poll of 1936 was). (Obviously they are fine for representing a sig POV, and can be cited as such.)
• Your argument about criteria is defensible, but hardly obvious (how objective are those criteria?), and alone is too WP:SYN-ish to use in the article.

Self-selected reports are not reliable indicators of the views of a community. (Duh, right? That's why randomization is used in controlled studies.) The AMA source rises above that problem, though I'm not sure it's adequate to the "pseudoscience" citation. Pretty clearly most scientists are skeptical about homeopathy, and understandably so. The idea that unproven efficacy equates to pseudoscience isn't as obvious a leap for me as it appears to be for others. thx, Jim Butler^(talk) 07:23, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

The articles I cited are certainly self-selected. That does not make them invalid indicators of scientific consensus. In fact, any reasonable attempt at demonstrating scientific consensus is going to be an inherently self-selecting process: you cite what supports the prevailing consensus, and you don't cite (or at least give undue weight to) minority opinions. If you're looking for a randomized, double-blind study which demonstrates homeopathic pseudoscience, I doubt you're going to find one. The term "pseudoscience" is probably too fuzzy of a term to construct such a rigorous study around. While we're on the topic, can you produce a cite from a national academy or other scientific body that claims astrology is a pseudoscience? Cheers, Skinwalker 16:32, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Self-selection doesn't necessarily prove a sample is invalid, but is certainly not sufficient to presume a sample is valid. (Again, WP:NOTTRUTH.) The self-selection bias of scientists speaking out individually (via popular media or self-published sources) is not at all the same as the way scientific consensus itself develops via peer-review. To answer your question re astrology, sure, see the first section of List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts. And note that at least one of the topics cited in the second section there, from The Skeptics Society, clearly lacks scientific consensus that it's pseudoscientific: multiple personality disorder, which is controversial, but still regarded as valid enough by some scientists to have been retained in the DSM-IV (same criteria, new name). What does that say about the reliability of self-selection? Some skeptics label virtually all unproven or controversial things as "pseudoscience", but sources that are reliable samples of scientific consensus are more sparing with the term. regards, Jim Butler^(talk) 16:55, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

This debate has been done to death. My opinion is that the category stays, and it will remain unchanged without new evidence. Jefffire 11:10, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the categorisation matters as long as the skeptical views, as collected by Skinwalker, are represented in the main article. Adam Cuerden ^talk

Adam, agree with you on this. Overuse of categories like this is one of the things that makes WP lame, but well-sourced articles are what makes it worthwhile. Jefffire, sorry if you find the matter tiresome, but the problem with self-selection bias is as relevant here as it would be in any other scientific context, and you can't wish it away. thx Jim Butler^(talk) 03:04, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't want to be redundant to anything I might have written above, but just want to underline the sentiment that we can do the most good as WP but summarizing evidence and expert opinion. The spirit of the WP:NPOV policy goes against the adding of a judgemental label -- that's what a category is -- to an article on a very disputed topic. It is also important to have perspective and realize that evidence-based medicine is always a work in progress. Look at the hormone replacement story (it looked like a great idea in observational studies and prescribing it was truly the standard of care, then the intervention studies came along and contradicted the observational evidence and now hardly anyone will use it except in special circumstances); Vitamin E was similar--early observational studies made it look great for primary and secondary prevention of CAD and many docs jumped on the bandwagon, an early intervention study in Lancet (which turned out to be flawed for a variety of reasons) showed great results for secondary prevention and more docs jumped on the bandwagon, then larger better designed studies showed no effect and virtually everyone pulled back (if anyone who is not familiar with this literature wants refs I'll add them; I'm having a bit of a busy day and am being a little lazy here). Abridged ^talk 14:04, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and it's also important to note that homeopathy is not evidence-based medicine, despite the outward appearance of such through provings, etc. There is no reliable evidence for the efficacy of homeopathy, and no relevant mechanism for its mode of action that does not violate a number of tenets of physics and chemistry. Comparing scientific disputes over hormone replacement and vitamin supplementation to homeopathy is a bit of a straw man argument - these actually have viable mechanisms and can be studied systematically. You may think the category is judgemental - and it's your right to, and I won't remove the NPOV tag unilaterally - but the ArbCom has specifically given editors the right to categorize theories as pseudoscience when there exists a scientific consensus describing it as such. Cheers, Skinwalker 16:32, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Homeopathy can certainly be "evidence-based" if subjected to clinical investigation in clinical trials in which a given intervention is done and an outcome is observed and measured. The state of the evidence changes as more studies are done, and this is why "evidence based" medical guidelines are in a constant state of flux. that is the point I was making above and it is not a straw man argument. Biological plausibility of mechanism is a completely different matter. Thanks for not removing the tag; I won't remove the category. We can agree to disagree if you like. Abridged ^talk 15:58, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree it could be, but it so far isn't, insofar that no clinical studies have demonstrated it effective. But I don't think we should categorise it as pseudoscience without a cite by a major medical orginisation saying it is in as many words; instead, we should put all the information that makes people believe it shoul d be categorised as pseudoscience into the article, and let people judge for themselves. I'm going to remove both the category and the tag. Adam Cuerden ^talk 16:20, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Adam, I'm not saying at this point it is evidence based or ever will be. What I am trying to do is to clear up Skinwalkers misunderstanding of what EBM actually is since he or she is using the term incorrectly. I agree with what you have written above about what we should do---remove the cat and the tag and let the facts speak for themselves. I dont' think you'll get consensus for this however. I also think this argument is not a productive use of anyone's time. Abridged ^talk 17:59, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that I've misunderstood evidence-based medicine, butI may be misunderstanding your interpretation of it. EBM is certainly changing constantly - but the underlying protocol changes rarely, if at all. What constitutes the best available treatment may change, but the tools for selecting the best available treatment - randomized, double-blind studies - do not. To adopt your definition, a treatment could be called "evidence-based" as long as someone has tested and measured its effect, and then completely disregarded whether the effect was superior to placebo or not. Or maybe I am misunderstanding you. Anyway, this is stupid; it's clear we are never going to reach consensus on this. Let's move on. Skinwalker 19:34, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I have never defined or interpreted EBM for you. In the analysis of RCTs, or observational studies where appropriate statistical comparisons are made, "treatment groups" are compared to placebo. This would be an apropriate way to study homeopathy. If I've said anything different from this, then please feel free to point it out to me. You might start collaborating here and stop assuming that others don't know what they are taking about, especially since you don't have a relevant degree or experience. Abridged ^talk 20:40, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Here's a citation for it being categorized as pseudoscience in a report from the national science foundation [17]. --Minderbinder 16:29, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree that source has some weight, but it has flaws as well. First, it cites examples of pseudoscience given by two notable sources (CSICOP, Robert Park), but it doesn't amount to an official endorsement of their views w/r/t which topics are PS. Second, the NSF is an agency whose board is composed entirely of political appointees[18]. That doesn't mean they must be biased, but for our purposes I'm not sure it's the best precedent to rely on such a group when there are more independent groups around. regards, Jim Butler^(talk) 17:20, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

• Those who are talking for Evidence based medicine, first of all they should understand , what is said for EBM. Any one can go on the article in Wikipedia and understand , what have been said authoritatively. Secondly the article is not well arranged and so many lacunea are present. It contains over 27 pages A4 size printed material but is not encyclopeadic. Better to split the material in separate pages and title.user:debbe,13 April 2007, 11:55 AM IST

I'm sorry, I don't understand your comment about EBM. Adam Cuerden ^talk 08:42, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

• When you are not able to understand , what is EBM, why you are participating in the passing of useless comments on Homoeopathy? It seems that most of the gentlemen, who poses themselves to be a great great great intellectuals, are fools and nothing else. Even then, most of them donot know about the A,B,C,D of what is Homoeopathy? Most of them are ignorent with such a serious subject matters.They are not serious in the discussion and behaviour like child. If they have such a great intellectual caliber and mental capacity, they should approach to United Nations to solve the entire world problems. Why they are here? These persons are only spreading vulgarity on this page and nothing else. There only motto is to comment and comments and comments and nothin else.No creativity at all. They have no positivity in their attitudes in any manner except the full of negativity.I will lodge a complaints against these so called intellectuals to inhibite them, who are creating disturbances for disturbances on this page.user:debbe,14 April 2007, 09:05 IST

I didn't say I didn't understand what EBM was. However, your English isn't very good, and it's hard to figure out what point you're trying to get across. Also, please have a look at WP:NPA Adam Cuerden ^talk 23:47, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Attention Wikipedia Administrators

Under mentioned data is for your observations.

This talk page have been misused by the so called intelligent editors, which can be seen by the Archive of this page.

• Archive-1, have 18 printed pages of A4 size.

• Archive-2, have 21 printed pages of A4 size.

• Archive-3, have 28 printed pages of A4 size.

• Archive-4, have 40 printed pages of A4 size.

• Archive-5, have 44 printed pages of A4 size.

• Archive-6, have 57 printed pages of A4 size.

• Archive-7, have 31 printed pages of A4 size.

• Archive-8, have 35 printed pages of A4 size.

• Archive-9, have 29 printed pages of A4 size.

• Archive-10, have 32 printed pages of A4 size.

• Archive-11, have 40 printed pages of A4 size.

• Archive-12, have 15 printed pages of A4 size.

• Archive-13, have 47 printed pages of A4 size.

The current talk pages have 25 printed pages material of A4 size paper. Total 464 [ Four Hundred Sixty Four] pages approximately have been used in the discussion. What is it? Is Homoeopathy is so controversial subject that such a big discussion cannot solve by anyone? Is it not a shameful condition for all, those who have participated in the discussion? Approximately 500 pages have been used for discussion without any conclusion. The learned editors perhaps avoided to consult the other encyclopedias on the subject matters. Only One percent editors are seen to be serious about the subject matters. Rest of the editors either chatting on this page or spreading unnecessary controversy, which have no mean to the subject. The chatting can be seen with the timings of the editors. If anybody go and see the UTC timings of the editors, it looks like they are chatting on this page without any serious intentions.

Is there any limit for discussion without any conclusion and results or we should see the cock fighting of the participants in this Homoeopathic battle field.

What is it and why it is being allowed in this page? User:debbe, 18 April 2007,01:35 PM IST

One limit is that the talk page is for discussion of the article, not the subject. Probably somewhere in those archives there's material that crossed that line. My guess, though, is that most of the discussion has been related to the article.

You ask, "Is Homoeopathy is so controversial subject that such a big discussion cannot solve by anyone?" My answer is that, yes, it's controversial, and it's unlikely that discussion on a Wikipedia talk page will persuade all the pro-homeopaths or all the skeptics. Even if everyone here were persuaded of one point of view or the other, the article, to comply with the WP:NPOV policy, would still have to include a fair presentation of all significant opinions on the subject. Much of that archived discussion is about how to apply the NPOV policy to specific paragraphs, or sometimes specific sentences. That's how collaborative editing on Wikipedia works. JamesMLane t c 16:49, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Homeopathy is Not a Placebo Therapy

Following Research work enables to proove "Homeopathy is not a placebo theraphy".Observation of the following things in nature has lead to the thought of identification of Homeopathic medicines:

http://www.homeopathynotaplacebothepathy.blogspot.com/

. Natural regulatory mechanisms

. Variability in physical and physiological parameters in physics and biology

. Orbit of earth and moon - Distance from sun

. Time of rotation of earth

. Bio clock

. Bio-magnetism

. Time of aggravation – Homeopathy

. Bio rhythms – Homeopathy

. Time and space effect

. Is time a 'real' dimension?

. Space-time

After experimental verification of the above it is discussed that ,

Medicine after administration acts on Bio - clock control area in the brain parenchyma and setting the clock according to the time of medicine. Medicine will have own impression and that impression transmits to the living organism, now the control mechanisms in living being are under the control of medicine and fluctuate according to the medicinal memory.

The process of potentization might have generating electromagnetic energy, which might carry the information of the basic substance.The Homeopathic dilutions will have a kind of network of bonds, as they produced variations in body temperature around the clock.

The electromagnetic field around person is subjects to the electromagnetic field around the earth. So the fluctuations in physiological parameters in the living being are related with time in tern the rotation of earth.

Experimental verification: (Original work)

. Graphs taken with data logger

. Graphs taken with clinical thermometer

. Method of Identification of Homeopathic medicine among given samples

. Method of selection of Indicated Homeopathic medicine.

It can be concluded that,

“There is variability in physical and physiological parameters in the natural regulatory mechanisms in the universe.”

“The variability in the natural regulatory mechanisms in the universe is similar at a given time.”

“Individuals differ due to space or time effect.”

. This work is helpful to identify the homeopathic medicine among many samples. . It is possible to select similar medicine for a patient at a given time. . Relation ship of remedied can be explained with this work. . This study may lead to identification of Homeopathic Medicines without proving. . This method also makes possible to write a computer program, which can monitor the indicated medicine to a patient with in 10 mits or less. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.182.48.26 (talk • contribs) 02:53, 19 April 2007

The contention that homeopathy has no value except as a placebo is a significant point of view. Therefore, this article must report that POV even if you've convinced yourself that you can disprove it.

The pro-homeopathy POV is also significant and is reported in the article. Your post does not indicate that any of the above is supported by reliable, verifiable sources (see WP:ATT, which would be a necessary (though not sufficient) condition for including it. This talk page is for discussion about how to word the article; it is not a soapbox provided for you to attempt to persuade us benighted skeptics that homeopathy somehow works. Please conduct those arguments on other websites and reserve this page for discussion of the Wikipedia article. JamesMLane t c 05:12, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

• What kind of evidence you want about the effectiveness of the Homoeopathic teatment? What is your depth of knowledge about Homoeopathy and how much you understand the doctrine of Hahnemannian approach? Have you gone to understand the basic principles of Homoeopathy? Are you a scientist? Your statement shows "an obstinate unsatisfied person with splitted personality in several dimentional activities".user:debbe,20 April 2007, 07:30 PM IST

Please read what I wrote, and read the Wikipedia policies I cited. I say that the skeptical point of view is significant. You respond by arguing, in effect, that that point of view is wrong. I don't agree with you, but it doesn't matter. Our policy is to give the reader the facts about significant points of view. The policy of WP:NPOV means that we report the skeptical opinion without adopting it.

By the way, this policy protects you. Suppose our policy were, instead, to decide what's true and come to a conclusion in the article. Given the demographics of the Wikipedia editor group, I'm very confident what the conclusion would be: Hahnemann was a quack and his contemporary followers are fools or con artists. Instead of saying that, however, we report facts about the pro-homeopathy opinion, and we try to be fair to both camps (even the one that's wrong). If you don't like that approach, don't edit Wikipedia. JamesMLane t c 02:17, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

How homeopathy actually works

The debates around homeopathy have been built up over many years although few seem to have offered a clear scientific explanation of the underlying process which can be easily understood.

Whilst not seeking to 'settle the debate', it should be noted that the actual process at work is not a complex one.

The main stumbling blocks are connected with a deliberate polarizing of the debate, mainly by people who for various political, economic or professional reasons are strongly against the idea of homeopathy and its attendant principles, falsely rendering it a binary choice between two extremes: supernatural 'mumbo jumbo' advocated by cranks or rational, level-headed science. This is simply designed to demonize practitioners and normalize non-believers. Those who continually polarize the debate in this way seek to suggest that only two choices are available, lunacy or sanity, in order to do political work. Although it should be noted that people on all sides are sometimes guilty of this approach.

Once the priciples behind homeopathy are explained simply, the debate at least becomes more three dimensional and realistic.

The two fundemental objections are firstly that similar compounds which cause harm can also cure, and secondly that solutions are so dilute that none of the original molecules could be left in the final product, and as such, water must have a kind of 'memory' which science cannot accept.

The first point is reasonably countered by anyone who has ever had a vaccine, or understands the principle of how vaccines work.

The second also follows a principle which most people will be familiar with. Think of it like this: if you play a trumpet inside a cave or empty concert hall, the sound of the note continues after you stop playing. This is not due to supernatural forces or that the air in the hall has a mysterious kind of 'memory', it's just that the sound reverberates around the hall.

You could even play a note, and quickly remove the instrument into another room and still hear the note, even though 'no part of the original trumpet is inside the building'.

In the same way that a piano, a trumpet or a violin playing the same note has a different timbre, or waveform, allowing listeners to identify the instrument, molecules vibrate (unless they are at absolute zero) with their own unique vibrational signature.

Subjecting the first solution to a hard impact (a vibrational shock) allows the vibration of the molecules to resonate in the water. After that, the vibration can be passed on in the same way in further solution.

There is nothing difficult to understand in this explanation, but it's one that rarely enters the debate. (22/04/07)

With all respect, this is original research, and thus not proper for Wikipedia even if it was provably true, instead of consisting of metaphors. Adam Cuerden ^talk 19:44, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, but it's an excellent analogy and helpful to many who find this debate deliberatly polarized.

Er, I'm not sure what you mean by "deliberately polarised". Adam Cuerden ^talk 17:07, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

We could quote such an explanation from a reliable source if one were to exist. Please see WP:ATT. Abridged ^talk 11:40, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

This entire analogy is a load of crap. Vaccines work according to science and evidence based medicine, not homeopathy. A killed virus vaccine does not harm, yet it immunizes the body. The above paragraph is riddled with errors, such as the idea that molecular motion stops at absolute zero. This is untrue. The hesienberg uncertainty principle proves this, as does direct quantum mechanical calculations of the vibrational energy. The idea that a concert hall can be compared to a bottle of water is also absurd. The sustain of the note is a function of time, while the concentration of water is not.

Answer this - since all water has been in contact with molecules of just about every single substance known to man (certainly every single one used in homeopathy) arent we all already taking homeopathic remedies for every condition?

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.122.9.90 (talk) 06:51, 1 May 2007 (UTC).

principle of vaccination: the body can regognise harmfull biological agents and is able to build up a defence against them, the first time the body encounters these harmfull agents (or pathogens as they are known) this response will take a while as the body must first recognise the pathogen and then assertain that it is doing harm. After the pathogen has been located a set of specific white cells will attack and then kill them. After the pathogen has been dealt with most of these specific white cells will die however some will remain in the body anc act as 'memory cells' if the pathogen is introduced into the body again then these memory cells will quickly recognise the pathogen and will multiply allowing for the speedy destruction of the pathogen. Vaccination works because a weakened form of the pathogen is introduced into the body, this weak pathogen will be recognised as a pathogen by the body causing the body to mount a defence agains it and resulting in the production of memory cells but will be unable to cause any significant damage to the organism.
in summery:
the body fights the pathogen
the body remembers the pathogen
next time the body encounters the pathogen it rembers it
the body deals with the pathogen quickly before it can do any harm

The crucial difference between vaccination and homeopathy is that the vaccination must occur BEFORE the infection, injecting more pathogens into someone who is already sick will only make matters worse and i can only assume the same is true of homeopathy which as far as i can gather gives very small amounts of harmful chemicals to ill people —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.3.34.87 (talk • contribs) 05:51, 21 May 2007

There is an interesting entry on Hair of the dog about similar toxins being used AFTER a condition arises.

Similia similibus curantur.

The above passage is uneven, but as an analogy for sympathetic resonance is not without merit, as molecules do have a vibrational signature which could be crudely likened to sounding a note in a hall. The air does not have a memory. I also agree that the debate is polarised, especially by anti-homeopathists who seem like the Catholic Church faced with Galileo. It's not that the Earth doesn't revolve round the sun, its that it can't for political reasons. The placebo effect therefore has to be the only response from these critics because they have nothing else to fall back on in the face of strong evidence that they are wrong. It's this resonance which they object to so violently because it would upset their whole universe were it true. These experiments, which were replicated in four different labs

This is from Madeleine Ennis.

I would like to say that I find this article to be atypically good for a controversial topic. There's no need to have two-sides to this. There are not two sides. Science does not recognize belief systems which go against logic and observed effects as being valid. There is no evidence of homeopathy working. It goes against well established scientific principals. It is rejected and has been rejected by mainstream science. End of story. If you want to add a pro-homeopathy section, you may as well as a "pro-flat-earth" section to the planetary science article in Wiki. -DrBuzz0

Question about homeopathy

I have renewed the page about homeopathy on Polish Wikipedia. I placed the following subjects: history, basic laws en rules in homeopathy, the sources of homeopathic medicines, production, the official labelling, the forms of homeopathic medicines, dosage, the way of taking, storage, mechanism of working according to famous homeopaths (Vithoulkas, Scholten), homeopathic provings, classical and clinical homeopathy, homeopathic consultation, homeopathy and regular medication. I would like to participate and contribute to the Homeopathy Article on EN-Wikipedia. Greetings. LidiaFourdraine. --86.90.199.26 11:47, 14 May 2007 (UTC)You can contact me on Polish Wikipedia, see the authors of page Homeopatia.

NPOV Tag

Is there a current discussion or can I remove the tag? Arbustoo 21:28, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

As you can see above, there was a lengthy debate on whether to categorize homeopathy as a pseudoscience or not. It seems to have died down. As it stands now, I believe the tag is there because the article is included in Category:Pseudoscience. There were some vague grumblings about an RFC that never materialized. I support the removal of the tag, but others may not. Cheers, Skinwalker 22:56, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Categories

I recently removed the Category:Pseudoscience tag from the article, not because I think homeopathy isn't pseudoscience but because the article already includes Category:Alternative medicine and Category:Homeopathy which are both sub-categories of Category:Pseudoscience and there is no reason to list in both the parent and two different sub-categories. This was reverted on the grounds that the category is controversial, which I find puzzling. Inclusion in a category does not imply that the category applies as a "label" to the topic. It simply means that there is a notable association between the topic and pseudoscience, which I think in this case nobody could reasonably deny. It is not the place of Wikipedia to pass judgment on the merits of this association, but merely to note it.

For example, the category of pseudoscience also includes noted skeptic Michael Shermer as well as a variety of logical fallacies and other topics frequently associated with pseudoscience. Homeopathy is undeniably associated with pseudoscience, because it is accused of being pseudoscience by a good number of people. That accusation (suitably referenced) is enough — there is no need to "prove" that homeopathy is pseudoscience. However, all that said, there is also no reason to include this article in both the pseudoscience category and the sub-categories. It clutters up the category page (which has a primary purpose of aiding navigation, not applying labels) and doesn't help anyone. If you feel that this article needs to more prominently assert that homeopathy is pseudoscience, then that should be done in the text of the article (with appropriate references, as always) and not with the category system. --Sapphic 23:33, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

THe introduction is far to partial - moved a big chunk into a "Criticism" section

Hi,

I have only just created my account. Before now, I never did - I only corrected typos etc.

This article is a disgrace. I don't agree nor disagree with Homeopathy. I am a skeptic. However, this article clearly SIDES against it. I am about to edit those parts that are clearly against neutral POV. For example "controversial subset of alternative medicine" ... ? "Despite being widely discredited in scientific circles, "... Homeopathy and conventional medicine are with each other. No secret there. And yes, in a "Criticism" section, why not, Wikipedia should say "Some consider it controversial" etc. But having an opening like that is just plain unprofessional. It doesn't matter if a portion of editors here is against it, for whichever reason. The need for neutral POV is pivotal.

I turned a whole chunk of text at the beginning of the article into a "Criticism" section at the end. I would say that moving "Criticism" at the top would be fine, but that's what it is. It doesn't matter if you believe it or not - putting a huge amount of partial views at the beginning of the article is just plain wrong.

And BTW, I don't _really_ believe in homeopathy. But That's not the point - and it should not be the point for any editors here.

Free free to undo my edits, which I consider fair. I will at least have tried to establish a bit of neutrality to this article.

Bye,

Tony Mobily

I haven't looked at your edits (I was just watching RC and saw your edit summary and was intrigued) but I would note that it doesn't really make sense to say "some think it's controversial". It is controversial — people argue over whether or not it works. The word "controversial" is not a pejorative; it is a neutral word which does not pass comment on which side is correct (or indeed, even on whether something should be controversial). I will not, however, revert your edits (I'll leave that to community consensus) Angus Lepper^{(T, C, D)} 11:31, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I have made a couple small changes to your edits — I fixed a grammatical error in the criticism section (which may not have been introduced by you, in any case). In addition, I undid your edit to the introduction, because of my reasons stated above as regards the word 'controversy' in addition to the fact that your edit introduced another grammatical error. I also feel that whilst we want to maintain a neutral point of view, this does not mean 'glossing over' legitimate criticisms. Angus Lepper^{(T, C, D)} 11:38, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Many thanks Angus. Sorry about the grammar mistakes - I edited it in Firefox, and the text looked like little ants :-D I am not 10000% convinced about the neutrality of the word "controversial". However, you are definitely more experienced than me, so I will leave it to you! While I think the article CAN be considered neutral with that "controversial" and with that "Despite being widely discredited in scientific circles", I really think that having a huge, umarked criticising section right at the beginning of the article is not really acceptable or professional for an encyclopedia. Right now, although some of the article's contents should be moved in the "Criticism" section, I *think* the article is at least one step closer to being neutral. As I said, I don't actually have a real opinion on Homeopathy, but that doesn't really matter. If it's a criticism, it's a a criticism - and it should go in the "Criticism" section. THANK YOU! Tony Mobily

The lead needs to include all views, so I restored the criticism to it. However, I put it at the end of the lead. Adam Cuerden ^talk 13:46, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the lead needs to include all views. However, the introduction to homeopathy right now is 340 words. 206 are a the introduction, and 134 are harsh criticism to homeopathy. This is clearly not acceptable, unless this article is renamed "Criticism to homeopathy". Adam, from your user page: "A biology student and music buff in Edinburgh, Scotland. Who doesn't really like talking about himself" I realise that as a biology student you might be biased against homeopathy. However, this doesn't mean that the article should be.

The user Pdelongchamp has edited the entry, with no discussion, with this comment in the entry: "(Lead shouldn't primarily include homeopathic views and explanations. Especially on a topic "generally considered pseudoscience." See Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Pseudoscience)". My answer is that an encyclopedia article should be balanced, and having a SUBSTANTIAL portion of the introduction bashing Homeopathy is not neutral. I will keep on making the introduction balanced. If you can justify why MOST of the introduction should bash Homeopathy, I am all ears.Tony Mobily 15:27, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I restored the content. This material needs to be in the introduction. There is a tremendous amount of criticism of homeopathy, so much that it almost defines the topic in scientific circles. I would accept an edited subset of this criticism as a compromise, but I feel that these items should remain: 1) That homeopathy is inconsistent with the laws of chemistry/physics, 2) That critics describe it as pseudoscience, 3) Well-controlled cliincal trials have yielded negative results. I fail to see how properly sourced and verifiable criticism is somehow not NPOV. Cheers, Skinwalker 12:52, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I restored the content. This is an encyclopedia article, not an article on why Homeopathy can be criticized. There is a tremendous amount of criticism of many other sciences. Saying that "criticism defines homeopathy" is dialectic - nice one, but still dialectic. The object of Wikipedia is to give a reasonable, neutral article on a topic. Having MOST of the introduction criticizing a topic and saying "criticism defines it" is not acceptable. I would accept criticism that don't take *most* of the introduction - and that is true for any Wikipedia articles. I have always used wikipedia, I have looked up to it, I have tremendous respect for it. I don't even *care* about homeopathy. But I care about Wikipedia being neutral. I believe I am doing the right thing - if I'm not, and if you are an established Wikipedia editor who is genuinely neutral about this topic, please let me know. Tony Mobily 15:27, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

First off, let me clarify that the "criticism defines it" comment was an expression of my personal opinion, which I would never write into the article itself. Editors here are themselves not expected to be neutral on the topic they write about (indeed, it's probably an impossible proposition) but the text they produce is expected to conform to WP:NPOV. I'm not sure what you mean about "dialectic" - aren't we already trying to resolve our disagreement through discussion? Do you mean circular reasoning, instead? You have at least three established editors who object to your changes - the consensus at this point is to allow the material to stay. I laid out my suggestions for a compromise above - can you make a counter-proposal? Cheers, Skinwalker 19:02, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Tony, I appreciate your determination and hopefully I can explain why the introduction is actually more balanced and more neutral with the "criticism" included. If the intro were to simply say "homeopathic remedies are diluted substances." then it would be ok because that's a fact. As soon as you start to explain how it works, that's when you need to include all significant views on how it works. (or doesn't work if that's the case) Otherwise, the intro is unbalanced and non neutral. For example, if you took out "According to Homeopaths, the water will retain a memory.." from the intro and replaced it with "According to scientists, homeopathic works through the placebo effect..." I doubt you would be trying to remove "criticism" from homeopaths from the intro. Pdelongchamp 18:08, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Alright, here is my proposal. We change the introduction so that it says SIMPLY this:

Homeopathy (also spelled homœopathy or homoeopathy), from the Greek words όμοιος, hómoios (similar) and πάθος, páthos (suffering)[1], is a controversial subset of alternative medicine practices, that aims to treat "like with like." The term "homeopathy" was coined by the German physician Christian Friedrich Samuel Hahnemann (1755–1843) and first appeared in print in 1807,[2] although he began outlining his beliefs of medical similars in a series of articles and monographs in 1796.[3]

Homeopathy is particularly popular in Europe and India,[7][8] although less so in the USA,[9] where such therapies have been subject to tighter regulation[citation needed]. Stricter European regulations have also been implemented recently by the EDQM.[10]

Since its inception homeopathy has received criticism on theoretical grounds, and has been subject to a number of studies aimed at testing its efficacy scientifically.

Which is all facts, and doesn't even try to enter any specific domain, and is neutral. Then, the rest of the text can be placed elsewhere in the article (which has plenty of explanations and criticism). This is in my opinion the only way to keep this article sane Tony Mobily 02:12, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I applied the changes. Now, the introduction just states bare facts, and it even mentions the fact that homeopathy is disputed in scientific circles. I applied it since everybody nobody added to my proposal and discussion, and in this case editors seem to be ready to pounce on it and revert any edit that is not partial against the topic. I am totally impartial, and am trying to keep this page impartial. NOTE: I deleted the word "Controversial" since there is already a mention of it being controversial at the end. If you add "controversial", then - to be balanced - I will argue about deleting the last sentence. To me, it's one or the other in order to keep the article balanced.Tony Mobily 12:23, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Your new version is not substantively different than the old one you proposed. Please stop proclaiming your impartiality - it is irrelevant and somewhat tiresome on a talk page. Did you read my offer of compromise? I am willing to cut down on the criticism in the introduction, but I feel that your version whitewashes some of the most important points of scientific criticism towards homeopathy. I propose that we keep the first two paragraphs as is (though I am not sure the bit about popularity is necessary - side issue), and make the third paragraph read:

Critics assert that homeopathy is inconsistent with the laws of chemistry and physics and the observed dose-response relationships of conventional drugs; critics of homeopathy frequently describe it as pseudoscience. Placebo-controlled clinical trials have given some mixed results, but most of those showing positive results are found to have methodological problems, and the better-quality trials (e.g. those using double-blind techniques and large numbers of people) give negative results.

This cuts some of the more in-depth criticism (though it will be preserved farther down in the criticism section) while not overwhelming the introduction. Please read WP:LEDE if you haven't already - we need to summarize all notable controversies without "teasing" the reader by hinting at facts that appear later. Comments welcome. Cheers, Skinwalker 13:42, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Proclaiming my impartiality is important, in my opinion, for such a controversial article. Sorry you found it tiresome, I will avoid it in the future. Now, about the introduction: My argument is not about cutting the controversy in the opening paragraph, but about leaving the introduction balanced. Right now, the introduction has: "Introduction - factual, neutral" (98 words) and "Criticism" (27 words). You are suggesting we add 67 more words on criticism. That would make the criticizing part just about as long as the factual/neutral part, which would make the introduction undeniably biased against Homeopathy. So, what I am saying is that for the article to be balanced, to have your part, the section will need to have at least as many "pro-homeopathy" words. It doesn't need to glorify homeopathy, but it does need to talk about it from the point of view of the people who believe in it. In fact, I even understand that since the topic is controversial, the part "against" it should be _slightly_ longer (15%?). I might sound mad, but counting the number of words seems to be the only way to give it a clear mark - especially after reading, twice, every discussion that happened in this sad talk page. Does this make sense, Skinwalker? Tony Mobily 18:36, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I think I understand your position, but I do not agree with it. Nowhere in WP:NPOV does it say that there should be numerical parity in word count between opposing viewpoints. In fact, I'm sure someone could write some fairly nasty, non-neutral things about homeopathy in 27 words or less- making this proposition a little silly. It is not the word count that matters, but whether or not we give undue weight to one side or the other. Scientific skepticism of homeopathy is significantly more than a minority viewpoint, making a fair summary of it in the introduction essential. Furthermore, your version does not fairly summarize the fact that the medical community thinks of homeopathy as a pseudoscience (which we are allowed to say, given the NPOV FAQ, if it is sourced) and that well-controlled clinical studies find no difference between homeopathic treatment and the placebo effect. I'm sure I can make a statement in 27 words or less that say this (in fact, I just did), but I don't agree that there should be numerical parity. Cheers, Skinwalker 18:56, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Tony, it's important that the intro represents all significant views fairly and without bias. We should probably move away from the term "balanced" since it is misleading. Views should be given due weight and all significant published points of view are to be presented. This would imply that results and analysis from the highest quality homeopathic studies should be given the most weight in explaining if and how homeopathy works. With all significant views fairly presented, readers will form their own opinions.

Also, a great deal of criticism against homeopathy does not make the article "biased against homeopathy" since the inclusion of that criticism helps to reflects all significant views. This means that the article is unbiased. If the article were to cut down on the critical views simply because there are more of them than supportive views, then the article would fail to represent all significant views and would then be biased.

Please read through Wikipedia's WP:NPOV policy for more information as well as the NPOV FAQ question relating to pseudoscience. Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Pseudoscience Pdelongchamp 20:50, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Skinwalker, you wrote: "Scientific skepticism of homeopathy is significantly more than a minority viewpoint, making a fair summary of it in the introduction essential." What you have to understand is that this is your perception, as an American or Canadian. If you lived in France or in England, you would have a very different picture - your wiew would be very different. You are using good arguments, but nevertheless the result is that the entry is biased because the whole intro defines Homeopathy by its criticism. Then, Pdelongchamp writes "cut down on the critical views simply because there are more of them than supportive views" - again, a partial view. It obviously depends on where you look - if you look at conventional medicine, that especially in the US is totally against Homeopathy, then of course there is more criticism than supporting views. If you live in a country that doesn't use homeopathy, then of course your "general view" will be biased. Now, what I could (and probably should) do, is write a paragraph that is as long as the one about controversies, and stick it in the introduction. The problem I have, is that I have the feeling that after writing it (which will take considerable work), some random editor will go "Oh, for this reason XYZ that part can't stay, removing it" or "Oh no now the intro is too long see Guideline XYZ, moving the pro-homeopathy part somewhere obscure". The question is, am I right? Tony Mobily 03:16, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Um, your statement about different views in France and the UK are demonstrably untrue. There is significant opposition to homeopathy in those countries as well. The French Minister of Health has acknowledged that homeopathy has no theraputic value[19], and the Academie Nationale de Medecine (the French equivalent of the American Medical Association, apparently) has demanded that the French government cease reimbursement for homeopathic treatment on the grounds that it does not produce clinically significant results.[20] In the UK, there has been significant opposition to the NHS's coverage of homeopathy.[21][22] Large chunks of the English-language Wikipedia are americentric, but this is not one of them. Cheers, Skinwalker 12:32, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Tony, the WP:NPOV policy explains bias. You are unfortunately the one expressing a bias, not the article. Specifically, scientific bias. You are discrediting scientific views for unscientific reasons.

Please reread what you are criticizing. The criticism isn't an American saying "i don't like homeopathy." It's high quality studies and scientific analysis. If you were to perform the same study in France, it would still give you the same results and if a French scientist were to analyze the chemistry and physics behind the homeopathic methodology they would still give it the same criticism. In short, criticism isn't by definition biased. Once again, please read through WP:NPOV.Pdelongchamp 21:03, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

We can go on forever. You can cite many, many cases where medical science was plain wrong - and you don't have to go that far back. Medical science hasn't explain placebo either - and yet doctor use it in trials. The same science that cannot explain placebo - and yet uses it - and that has been proved wrong in time, "disproved" homeopathy. You don't have to go as far as medical science: science has been proved wrong over and over again as well. The problem here is that we are having pseudo-argument about science, its validity, whereas we should be focussed on writing an *encyclopedia* article on homeopathy. Not the current medical science's point of view of it (or, it should be called "Current medical science's view on homeopathy". So, this article is biased - and that's the most important thing you need to understand. While this article's neutrality should be disputed (and yes, it should have a big fat sign at the top), maybe another one should be created, "Homeopathy - impartial facts" which basically takes out all the bias from this one. Sadly, this may well be the way to go. However, hopefully somebody with a bit of sense might then realise that the second article *is* indeed - unlike this one - impartial.Tony Mobily 07:06, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Tony, medical science has only been proven wrong through advances in medical science, just like science has only been proven wrong through advances in science. Please try to understand that no one can be biased *towards* science. You can only be biased against it. Wikipedia refers to this as scientific bias. Please read through the entire WP:NPOV policy. Criticism is only biased if it is baseless. The criticism against homeopathy is backed by strong evidence and therefore can't be considered biased.Pdelongchamp 18:03, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Controversial

I would like to say something about the so-much-disputed word controversial: it should never be placed in the beginning of the article since it serves as a primary definition of the word 'Homeopathy'. Homeopathy is a subset of alternative medicine practices - this sheuld be the definition in the introduction. This is the definition of the word Homeopathy, the one you could find in a dictionary. Here is a definition from a real dictionary

a system of medicine in which a disease is treated by giving extremely small amounts of a substance that causes the disease

I think that such a definition should be given in the introduction. And whether it's controversial or not - that should be said in other paragraphs. Johny1407 18:55, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

the amount of history of homeopathy that involves conflict with science and the like means we cannot ignore it.Geni 20:29, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

This kind of answers literally kills my hopes for Wikipedia. I was warned about these sorts of situations, and that's why before now I have ever only fixed little bits as an anonymous user. Quite frankly, I have stopped doing that now. Geni, you are arguing with logic. You are saying "Oh well, it "deserves" to get a negative bias". Forgetting that this is an encyclopedia that is supposed to present the facts staying neutral, whereas you _know_ that the introduction is completely biased, and that word "controversial" defines Homeopathy in a not-so-honorable way. Here, there is no argument to be made at all, a part from the fact that this article is PARTIAL and NOT NEUTRAL. I will stop trying to convince you otherwise, but I will consistently point out that this article is partial. Tony Mobily 16:00, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Neutral does not equate to avoidance of negatives, in fact the citing of negatives is required by NPOV. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 19:18, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Unfairly Against Homeopathy

This article is written like it aims to opose homeopathy and everything here is written against it. ; I would like a dispute to be started about the neutrality of this article and a label to be placed in the beginning of the original article which points out that the neutrality of this article is disputed Johny1407 18:35, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi Johny, articles are always open to discussion. What specifically do you find violates NPOV? Pdelongchamp 19:26, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

The introduction, as a start. The rest of the article is "fixable", but since people here seem to stubbornly revert any modification that hints neutrality and impartiality, I suggest Johny1407 not to waste his time here.Tony Mobily 16:04, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, I suggest you look at NPOV, and [23]. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 19:21, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality of the introduction disputed

I am disputing the neutrality of this section. Two main issues:

• The sentence "is a controversial subset of alternative medicine practices". That "controversial" should be taken out

• The whole last part of the section, starting from "critics of homeopathy frequently describe it as pseudoscience[12] and quackery.[13] Placebo-controlled clinical trials have given some mixed results, but most of those showing positive results are found to have methodological problems, and the better-quality trials (e.g. those using double-blind techniques and large numbers of people) give negative results.[14] Several examples of publications in high ranking journals that were later withdrawn are known. [15] Additionally, the use of homeopathic drugs to prevent malaria infection has produced life-threatening consequences.[16][17]" (the part before this COULD STAY, although it would be even better to take out "The theory that extreme dilution makes drugs more powerful by enhancing their "spirit-like medicinal powers"[11] is inconsistent with the laws of chemistry and physics and the observed dose-response relationships of conventional drugs;" as well.

A note for people who don't know, or (more likely) needing to be reminded...

"NPOV requires views to be represented without bias. All editors and all sources have biases. A bias is a prejudice in a general or specific sense, usually in the sense of having a predilection for one particular point of view or ideology. One is said to be biased if one is influenced by one's biases. A bias could, for example, lead one to accept or not accept the truth of a claim, not because of the strength of the claim itself, but because it does or does not correspond to one's own preconceived ideas." Tony Mobily 16:19, 14 June 2007 (UTC),

Hurray for cherry picking! Read the section under WP:UNDUE and come back. ornis 16:37, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Wow, now THAT'S a neat way of ending a dispute. I am impressed. Let's talk about "minorities" here. I read this article in... oh yes, Wikipedia. The number of people who use homeopathy? Denmark, 28% (1,525,183 people); France, 32% (20,512,684 people); Netherlands, 31% (5,136,890); Sweden, 15% (1,369,058); UK, 16% (9,776,133); US, 3% (9,056,580). So, let's see... without considering India (let's not go there, shall we?), hummm... it's a neat 47,376,528. Yeah, that's nearly FIFTY MILLION PEOPLE. I *think* I have some grounds to dispute the introduction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tony Mobily (talk • contribs)

Hmm... fifty million people, out of roughly 5.5 billion (excluding india), that's what, 0.9% of the worlds population? In any case none of that changes the fact that the overwhelming consensus among doctors and scientists, is that homeopathic "remedies" at best do no better than placebos, and the intro states that without recourse to emotive or leading language. ornis 02:43, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Ah, yes, the "50 million Elvis fans can't be wrong" argument. We state the popularity of homeopathy already in the introduction - any other appeal to the number of people who use/believe in a particular topic is fallacious. Seriously, Tony, your behavior is becoming disruptive. I've offered some compromises, which you have not addressed. I'm willing to work with you, but you keep banging away at the supposed bias of this article without offering serious concessions of your position. Cheers, Skinwalker 12:35, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

OK, point taken. both about the 50 million people, and about the disruption. I guess my nerves were getting out of hand. What I don't understand, is why I keep on putting the "section in dispute" tag up, and people keep on taking it down when the dispute isn't over. Is this acceptable in WIkipedia? (if it is, please let me know). If it's _not_ acceptable, I am more than willing to discuss it as long as the tag is up. People need to know that the introduction is being disputed - and yes, I am disputing it, and yes, I am willing to find a compromise. Let's see... Tony Mobily 14:52, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

This silence speaks volumes. Tony Mobily 08:57, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Possibly it means that other editors are tired of dealing with nonsense. Or it could be that it's a weekend in summertime and most folks are out and about. You pick. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 19:23, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Or it could be that those 50 million people will be coming to us doctors for help. Well, they better not come to me because first, I have no bedside manner, and I'll tell them it's their fault, second, because I quit practicing medicine 15 years ago, so I'd go to jail for helping them, and third, they'll be dead before they make it to their doctor anyways. But seriously, this is nonsense. It's not a dispute, it's one editor who thinks his original research trumps verifiable references. It doesn't fly. Orangemarlin 19:35, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

No bedside manner? You tell these idiots it's their fault? You must love House. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 21:19, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

House is my hero. And he'd tell these charlatans who practice this pseudoscience on gullible but very ill individuals what to do with themselves. I wonder if these people who push Homeopathy understand people will die because of what they push. Orangemarlin 05:16, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

They don't seem to understand much of anything. Same as the herbalists. Maybe if the looked at life expectancy over time they might actually see the correlation between real medicine and significant increases in life spans. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 19:35, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Disputing the introduction - once more

Hello,

I dispute the introduction as strongly biased against homeopathy, I propose to change it so that it's more neutral.

Skinwalker wrote that he will support changes as long as:

"1) That homeopathy is inconsistent with the laws of chemistry/physics, 2) That critics describe it as pseudoscience, 3) Well-controlled clincal trials have yielded negative results."

I would like to change 3) into "No well-controlled clinical trial has yelded positive, repeatable results" - which seems to be the case.

Shall I go ahead and edit the entry leaving these three points in the intro?

Please note that I will consider _vandalism_ the deletion of the "Dispute" tag in the article.

I am all ears. Even an "OK, go ahead" is fine. As I wrote above, I am only willing to work on this WHILE the article says clearly that the intro is under dispute, since it _is_.

Heya. I'm not the one removing the tag, that should probably stop. 3 is mostly OK, but I would change the word "repeatable" to "reproducible". Repeatability and reproducibility mean different things in a scientific context. Of these, I think reproducible is the term you want to use. Also, please make sure you retain the citations. Why don't you post your proposed version here in full so we can haggle over it? Cheers, Skinwalker 12:37, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

The intro as it stands presents the facts, and frankly I don't give a rats' whether you think those facts are biased against homoepathy. Homoepathy, does not work. Full stop. In fact, this whole article gives far too much weight to this dangerous rubbish. Oh and I consider what you're doing vandalism, and will continue to oppose it as such. good day. ornis 14:46, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

If peer-reviewed, highly reliable references causes the lead to be POV, then I guess there are a lot of POV articles on Wikipedia. Let's get real. There are hardly any scientific peer-reviewed references (I'm just being a good scientists and not using a blanket claim that there are no sources, because really there are none) that would allow any reasonable person to conclude that Homeopathy is anything more than junk medicine. The lead is NPOV, by any stretch of the imagination. Orangemarlin 17:21, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I cannot keep up with people like ornis who will keep on vandalising the page. This has been a very good experience. I will write about the value of Wikipedia. It will cover WP being US-Centric, and some individual (clearly listed in this discussion) who don't give a "rats'" whether an article should be neutral. I will also reproduce this discussion, which clears things up quite neatly. Skinwalker: I appreciate your attempt to discuss the issue. Unfortunately, discussion is useless - read the comments above. I am gonna leave this discussion, but you will hear of this issue. Stay tuned.—Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Tony Mobily (talk • contribs) 04:02, June 17, 2007

Quite recently, doctors would silence anybody who dared say that beriberi and lime could possibly be cause by nutrition. There is much that medicine doesn't understand - placebo being first in the list. This discussion with ex doctors witch-hinting homeopaths is pathetic. Luckily, time will tell you wrong. Sadly, we might be all dead when that happens. But, I will have done my share. Have a good day. Tony Mobily 12:06, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

<reduce indent> I'm not from the US. And the article is neutral. I just don't care whether that bothers you or not. Honestly, peddling tap water to desperate, ill people as a magical cure. ornis 12:42, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

There are homeopaths in the US too. And Tony Mobily, please keep your accusations away. We are not vandalizing the page we are attempting to edit to the highest possible standard of neutral point of view with verifiable references. There is no way dilutions down to 0 molecules of anything will have an effect. Homeopathy is essentially giving water to someone. It doesn't work. Unless the person is dehydrated, and even then water isn't the best idea alone. Orangemarlin 14:45, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your personal opinion on homeopathy, ConfuciusOrnis. You are vandalising the page since I am trying to dispute it, and you are not allowing me to. Once more, thank you for informing me of your opinion on homeopathy. Tony Mobily 04:00, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

This dispute is not over. In fact, it has only just started. Stay tuned. Tony Mobily 10:04, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I believe that we are being taunted by Tony Mobily. Not very civil behavior. Orangemarlin 12:48, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Tony, I would also be interested in collaborating on changes to the introduction. In regards to the statements above, it's sometimes difficult to ignore statements that lack good faith but I would challenge you to, nevertheless, assume good faith in your responses. At least in this current discussion, we should avoid talking about whether or not we think homeopathy works and stick to the topic of whether or not the intro is neutral. Please post your suggested lead below and we can discuss it further. Thanks Tony.Pdelongchamp 17:24, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Hell, I'm still trying to figure out how the intro is biased. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 19:38, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I am going to ignore Orangemarlin's comment. Pdelongchamp, thanks for your understanding - I mean it; however, after one week of being told things like "It doesn't work. Unless the person is dehydrated, and even then water isn't the best idea alone.", "Honestly, peddling tap water to desperate, ill people as a magical cure"... and especially after deleting the "Dispute tag" and telling ME that I was vandalising the page... well, I don't think this is the best venue to face this problem. I didn't mean not be nasty when I said "The dispute has only just started". I meant that this is not the right venue, because talking to people like Orangemarlin or ornis is frankly a waste on time and energy. Pdelongchamp, I think you are very well meaning. However, every time I have suggested anything that was slightly more neutral, I have been told "Criticism defines homeopathy, so there needs to be tons of it in the introduction". I cannot win this war - not here. Sorry, I just don't have the nerves for it. Tony Mobily 04:36, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Not providing standard medical care and utilizing methods that have no scientific basis or testing is reprehensible. That's the NPOV. Orangemarlin 17:06, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Please tone it down. I can't imagine any article written from a NPOV that would say "XYZ is reprehensible". It's enough to point out the lack of scientific basis without moralizing. Let the facts speak for themselves. --Art Carlson 19:54, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Tone what down? The fact that using Homeopathy for anything other than getting a drink of water might kill? That is reprehensible. And please note, in case you've not, I didn't use that in the word in the article. Please show me where there's a violation of NPOV to state a very strong opinion on this page? Orangemarlin 22:20, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Malaria

I just placed this peer-reviewed reference, plus link to online text of same, at the end of the intro where it talks about malaria:

However, homeopathy was as effective as chloroquine for treating malaria in Ghana, in a randomized pragmatic trial of the two therapies. ref: van Erp VMA, Brands M. Homoeopathic treatment of malaria in Ghana – Open study and clinical trial. Brit Hom J 85,1996: 66-70 http://www.giriweb.com/vanerp.htm /ref

Within minutes it was removed, demonstrating that on WP it is only appropriate to present negative evidence about homeopathy. LOL. Berberis 13:25, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Why do you think it is appropriate to place any specific study in the introduction, especially when there is already a lengthy section on "Scientific testing of homeopathic treatment"? Out of tens or hundreds of peer-reviewed, double-blind studies, why do you think it is appropriate to single out this particular study, although its result are not statistically significant and it has not been reproduced?

In response to the unpeer-reviewed, nonexperimental anecdotal malaria stories rhetorically deployed as the closing sentence in the intro.

Where did you get the statement "homeopathy was as effective as chloroquine"? The conclusion in the paper was "homeo­pathy has an effect, comparable with and slightly (non-significantly) better than chloroquine."

You answer your own question.

This statement is actually misleading because it is not clear what is meant by "comparable with". I would say, This study was not able to distinguish between the two treatments and was not designed to address the question of whether either treatment is effective. In other words, it is consistent with the possibility that one of the treatments was effective and the other was completely ineffective. --Art Carlson 14:13, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

If the WP intro is correct, the homeopathy group should all have died. They "actually" recovered at least as well as the chloroquine group. Berberis 14:30, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

You used a nonverifiable reference that I wasn't convinced was peer-reviewed. Moreover, after reading your link, I had more questions than anything. Like could there be some other reason for the equivalent results? Research bias? Orangemarlin 19:46, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Berberis, do not interpost.

Did you read this part: "2.1. INCLUSION AND EXCLUSION PARAMETERS"? "if the patient had some of the following clinical parameters" Oh please, the person could bloody well have had the flu. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 19:50, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I went to the home page of the url. It's a Homeopathic organization. Sigh. Orangemarlin 20:01, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Sigh, pretty much shoots it down as a reliable source.

As resistance to quinine (or chloroquine) has increased (thanks to the adaptability of P. falciparum), it is bloody obvious that its efficacy would diminish. Interestingly, the study did not include mefloquine or atovaquone, or other "cocktails" that have much higher efficacy rates. Focusing solely on a drug that one knows certain strains of malaria are resitant to is like picking a moped to show that a Lamboghini is fast. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 20:33, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

The translation on that page is horrible. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 20:44, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

In any case, a single, questionable source is insufficient to trump large numbers of peer-reviewed articles, and it would be WP:Undue weight to treat it as equal. Adam Cuerden ^talk 20:47, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, yes, there's that point, too. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 20:54, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh yeah. I forgot. Here's my point. Homeopathy kills. Yup, that's right. Forgoing well-studied and efficacious therapies for eye of bat and ear of newt (diluted so that there are no molecules of either) is going to kill people. The NPOV of this article ought to spell that particular point out very clearly.Orangemarlin 03:55, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Where did you get the idea it was meant to trump anything? I placed the reference there to balance the prominent scary anecdotes about homeopathy and malaria.

Professor Geoffrey Pasvol, a tropical medicine expert at Imperial College in London, was reported as saying "Medical practitioners would be sued, taken to court and found guilty for far less. What this investigation has unearthed is appalling.".[146]

This actually untrue, and I don't notice any health warnings about mainstream General practitioners who fatally fail to diagnose malaria. That happened in England recently, at the same time as the orchestrated media attack on homeopathy, but noone called for that bungling medic to be hung, drawn and quartered. This topic is being used as a soapbox by opponents as much or more than by proponents, but the opponents are the bigger bullies. Berberis 13:50, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Lol, your persecution complex is showing. A doctor found guilty of negligence or malpractice is liable to have their licence revoked, damages awarded against them, or in extreme cases face jail time. As far as I know no such standard is applied to homeopaths, whose practice is inherently negligent. ornis 15:25, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

One thing I've wondered about: since our drinking water comes from sources that have sewage/pollution in them, does the drinking water retain the memory of the various bacteria and chemicals that used to be in the water? If so, shouldn't we all get sick? &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 15:44, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

No all that nasty communist fluoride gives it amnesia. ornis 16:44, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Failing to diagnose malaria in a northern country maybe problematic if the practitioner is unfamiliar with the disease. Jim, the answer to that would be only if an intelligent designer is involved.  :) Orangemarlin 17:04, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, OM, you missed ornis' very clever reference to Dr. Strangelove. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 20:33, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm way too young to have ever seen Dr. Strangelove. LOL. But I did miss the reference. Bad me. Orangemarlin 22:17, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

<RI>In the vast majority of countries worldwide, only licenced and legally accountable medics may practice homeopathy. But since when have facts mattered on WP? Berberis 05:45, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

And when their patient dies because they tried to treat a serious illness with magical memory water? ornis 05:51, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Is that even true? Which countries require it, of th hundred and seventy or so in the UN? Adam Cuerden ^talk 05:59, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Non-medical 'homeopaths' are legally recognized in about 20 of 170 countries, according to Bodeker G, Ong C. WHO global atlas of traditional, complementary and alternative medicine. Kobe, Japan: WHO Centre for Health Development; 2005. Berberis 08:59, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

So-called weasel wording

User:Orangemarlin reverted edits that he/she mistakenly thought were weasel words. Let me be clear here, and also advise this editor to look up what weasel words mean:

• There are different levels of dilution (by whatever term), only some of which result in the level described in the next clause. These different levels are described elsewhere, but it is simply false and misleading to imply that every remedy is diluted to this point.
• When you dilute a substance, the molecules don't disappear. At each stage of dilution, you are simply increasing the probability that a molecule doesn't appear in the dosage. This is basic physics and probability, and it astonishes me that editors who raise high the banner of science are so sloppy on this matter. --Leifern 23:28, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

That editor knows perfectly well what weasel wording means, as do I and I agree with his assessment. False and misleading to imply that every remedy is diluted to what point? Regardless of the levels the end result is "...few, if any, molecules of the substance remain in a particular dose." ornis 23:44, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Please respond to my specific points. The wording as you prefer it implies that every dosage is devoid of molecules of the active substance through some kind of magic, and that this occurs in every dilution approach. Words like "some" and "unlikely" are words with specific meaning. Look it up in any elementary textbook in statistics and/or critical thinking. I'm not going to get into a revert war here, so I suppose the two of you can congratulate yourselves by prevailing by brute force rather than reason. --Leifern 00:20, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

"few, if any" implies that after a dilution, there are few molecules left, sometimes none, in any give dose. Erm... how hard is that? The sentence already says what you want it to say, just doesn't use imprecise, weasely words like "some" and "unlikely", oh and my previous answer was to both your points. I think you perhaps need to open an english textbook. ornis 00:48, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

As I said, congratulations for getting your way by shouting down another editor. The wording you advocate reads:

"Homeopathic remedies are created by diluting an active ingredient in water to the point where few, if any, molecules of the substance remain in a particular "dose".

Now, the purpose of the dilution isn't to minimize the number of molecules as this seems to imply, and dilution degrees vary. Some will bring it to this point, others won't. Also, "few if any" is less accurate than pointing to probability, also known as "likelihood." With this phrase, a reader will be misled into believing that all dilution is the same, and that the purpose is to eliminate molecules. Which is false.

--Leifern 01:42, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

<RI> May not be the purpose but that's what it does. You still fail to demonstrate what's wrong with the sentence.ornis 05:37, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

"What it does?" To write this would be to accept the premise the homeopaths make. We can only talk about what is claimed, as what actually happens is subject to debate. --Leifern 10:32, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

The description of dilution here [24] says alcohol, not water. It also says that the belief that more highly diluted potencies are 'stronger' is a fallacy. If either of these assertions is correct, this article is even more misleading than it appears. Berberis 08:47, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Using a pseudoscience website to prove your point is not going to hold water (so to speak). There are few or no molecules. The efficacy doesn't exist at that point, and that has been shown in a multitude of scientific studies. The wording was weasel. Orangemarlin 17:59, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

It's a shame that the article is no better informed than you on the widespread use of low potencies in homeopathy:

Summary Background: The issue of potency choice in homeopathy has always been controversial. In ‘‘high’’ potencies there are no molecules of the starting substance remaining and in low potencies (including tinctures) the line between homeopathy and herbal medicine is blurred. Method: The literature on potency selection is reviewed, including the use of low potencies and their effects on organ physiology. This article attempts to examine the overlapping boundaries between homeopathy and herbal medicine in clinical practice and basic research. Findings: Both low and high potencies are utilized in all areas of homeopathy ranging from prescribing for acute or chronic diseases to constitutional treatment. Low dilutions play a role in homeopathic prescribing, and are particularly prominent in systems of homeopathy focusing on the organotropic effects of homeopathic medicinal products integrated with conventional medicine diagnosis and treatment. (Mother) tinctures may be employed in homeopathy as well as in herbal medicine. The distinction between the two is based on the clinical context, the rationale behinds its use, and the production method of the tincture. Data available from basic research on low and high potencies do not suggest a superiority of low potencies over high potencies or vice versa. Conclusion: Low potency homeopathic medications (with detectable concentrations of the starting material) and high potency homeopathic medications (with no detectable amount of the starting material in the finished product) have been available since the beginning of homeopathy. Given that both groups of homeopathic medications have shown effectiveness in clinical trials and in the absence of a definitive mechanism of action for homeopathy (including the possibility that there may be multiple mechanisms of action present) this wide of range of potencies for homeopathic medicines should be maintained, ranging from mother tinctures to homeopathic medicinal products with no measurable concentration. © 2005 Elsevier Ltd. All rights reserved.

Jutte R, Riley D. A review of the use and role of low potencies in homeopathy. Complement Ther Med. 2005 Dec;13(4):291-6.

Berberis 10:33, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Oddly enough the "peer-review" appears to be carried out by homeopaths. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 21:28, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Disputed

I drop by this article every few months to see if there is any improvement in its accuracy and POV, and there usually is. Still, it appears that a small number of editors persist in pushing an SPOV agenda, and typically with outright violations of scientific principles. Since my attempts at making a few changes to clarify the claims of homeopathy were simply shouted down, the article as it stands now is seriously misleading to the reader. --Leifern 00:37, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Please read relevant guidelines and policies on removing tags. Another revert without responding to the specific points will be posted to the incidents board. --Leifern 00:40, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I would like to point out that the user ornis has deleted the "disputed" tag - once more. Discussing this topic on this page has become very difficult, with a small group of editors asserting that "the introduction is neutral" and effectively not allowing discussion and dispute. Tony Mobily 08:05, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Endorsed. User:Orangemarlin has removed the dispute tag on the basophil section, without answering the criticism that led to its tagging. Berberis 08:33, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Deleting a disputed (or NPOV) tag with the mere assertion that it doesn't apply is simply unacceptable practice. While it is impressive, perhaps, that some editors believe that their judgment and opinion should be accepted as fact here, it is not how this enterprise works. --Leifern 10:34, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Leifern: This is going to be a little off-topic... I was going to write an article for a major magazine entitled "When Wikipedia goes wrong". The article focuses on how extraordinary Wikipedia is (and it is), and how - like everything else - sometimes things don't work as they should. I don't have the Wikipedia skills to argue against the infamous editors here, or to follow the proper reporting procedures. Discussing with them, I grew exasperated. Anybody who tries to neutralise the introduction (or any other section) ends up being told "Homeopathy kills, and it doesn't work, so the intro is not partial at all, it's the truth". Something serious needs to be done here. You seem to have a clue about this - please keep us informed on where the dispute is happening with the incident board. Maybe, the title of the article should be "When Wikipedia goes wrong - but only temporarily" or something like that. BTW, the tag has been removed - once more. I cannot believe how bossy these editors are. It's disheartening. Tony Mobily 12:13, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Please contact me via e-mail on my user page. I'd be happy to weigh in. --Leifern 15:58, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

The dispute tag on the basophil section has been removed for a second time, this time by User:ConfuciusOrnis, and again without answering the criticism of the inaccuracies that led to the tagging of the section - see http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Talk:Homeopathy#Literature_on_basophile_stimulation above. I am reverting the tag. Berberis 12:32, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Berberis: I would avoid adding the tag, since this will turn into a tag war. Your tag was removed before, and it will be removed again. I really think something more serious needs to happen here. Tony Mobily 12:44, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Berberis: Well, I can only assume my comment above somehow influenced ConfuciusOrnis to "accept" your change. (Why they weren't accepted before it anybody's guess, I can only assume). Does the change satisfy you, so that it shouldn't be disputed anymore? Also, I would like to point out that the introduction should still be disputed. I totally support Leifern's original changes (then gracefully reverted by ConfuciusOrnis). Leigern's changes don't change the meaning of the sentences, but do make the intro much more objective. Tony Mobily 13:58, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I happen not to be satisfied with the change myself. The wikipedia page says "[the study] suggested that methodological problems accounted for the positive results.", whereas the study says "Additional studies using strictly controlled experimental conditions, several blood donors and an improved methodology are needed to elucidate the open questions". So, the sentence in the article should be changed into "[the study] suggested that additional studies using strictly controlled experimental conditions, several blood donors and an improved methodology are needed to elucidate the open questions". THIS way, the article would be properly cited. I changed the sentence. LEt's see how long it lasts. Berberis, Leigern: do you agree with the change? Tony Mobily 14:07, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Tony, this is a definite improvement on the inaccurate attempt dismiss Ennis by previous editors. However, if the quote here is to be believed(http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Talk:Homeopathy#Literature_on_basophile), Guggisberg et al are not blaming Ennis's results on her poor methodology: they appear to suggest that methodological problems may have accounted for their own negative results. I will check the paper. Berberis 15:15, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

SPOV? Excellent, I'm happy that we have that. Orangemarlin 18:00, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Orangemarling, Wikipedia doesn't aim for a SPOV. It aims for a NPOV. Please read the policy. Leigern has made some excellent points and you have failed to present proper justifications for your reverts or to assume good faith. I would recommend you take a break from this article until you can present a neutral attitude and AGF. You have let your views on homeopathy affect your decisions and your reverts. People don't come here to learn about how homeopathy doesn't work. They come to read about all significant view points so that they can make their own decision. Any reasonable person will come to the same conclusion. We don't have to push it onto them. Pdelongchamp 18:23, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I happen to understand completely what is NPOV. Thanks for the lecture on something I know quite well. Please read my edits. Even in articles I find silly Flood geology, I strive for an NPOV. I'm not sure who appointed you NPOV police and determiner of what is correct behavior, but I don't need, thank you very much. Orangemarlin 16:44, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

A general piece of advice - if you're going to edit heavily and be confrontational on one of the most controversial articles in Wikipedia, make sure you understand NPOV completely. As Pdelongchamp points out, we do not have an SPOV policy but have a very strong NPOV policy. And as an editorial aside, it's been my observation that those who shout loudest for the scientific method understand it the least. --Leifern 10:38, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

And I appreciate your lecture too. Thanks. Orangemarlin 16:44, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I'll assume that was an attempt at being sarcastic. --Leifern 10:14, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

WP:NPOV also includes WP:Undue weight. Quality of study and number of studies also counts for something. Adam Cuerden ^talk 10:39, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Well said, Adam. So you'll be including this review then:

Bluth M, Albrecht H, Weisshuhn TER, Witt C. In vitro research with homeopathic potencies. A systematic review. Allg Hom Zeit 2005:250, doi: 10.1055/s-2005-868617. The review found 85% of studies demonstrated a potency effect and the proportion of positive results (86%) remained constant even among high quality experiments. Berberis 10:53, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Without having read the article, I still see that as a fantastic claim. These are supposed to be in vitro studies? The usual excuse for ambiguous results on clinical studies is that they are just too expensive and it is difficult to control subjective and selective factors. But if homeopathy really had a single protocol that resulted in an unambiguous positive from high potencies, that would be followed up and replicated (or repudiated) so often in bigger and better studies it would make your head spin. Are any other explanations possible? How about publication bias? And the sceptics among us don't find it comforting that your review is published in a journal with "Hom" in the title. Is that your best shot? Or better, is this the highest quality, most objective source that we can offer our readers as a summary of tests of efficacy? --Art Carlson 11:19, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Berberis, the quote you have doesn't really say much about what the experiment was about. Do you have any links to it or analysees? Pdelongchamp 12:56, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Berberis, I just read the abstract. They use a modified SAPEH-Score but the abstract doesn't outline how it was modified. Also, I don't quite understand how you present this study in response to Adam's stance that high quality studies should carry additional weight. There's no way you accidentally left out this sentence considering it sits between two sentences you did include above:

85% of them supported the existence of a potency effect, but overall quality was low. The rare use of adequate controls in particular made judgement difficult. Surprisingly, the proportion of positive results remained constant even among high-quality experiments: 12 out of 14 experiments (86%) showed effects of homeopathic potencies.

Additionally, the abstract states that the investigations demonstrating a potency effect predominate by far, but a bias (e.g. publication bias) cannot be excluded. Pdelongchamp 13:09, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Pdelongchamp, This was a systematic review of in vitro experiments, which took quantity and quality seriously. Effects were apparent - even in 12/14 high quality studies. Publication bias is a prevalent and serious problem in biomedicine generally, mainly due to commercial interference, and editors' reluctance to publish insignificant results. I also have yet to read a systematic review which does not call for better quality primary studies. Here's another systematic review (in vivo, this time): Linde K, Jonas WB, Melchart D, Worku F, Wagner H, Eitel F. Critical review and meta-analysis of serial agitated dilutions in experimental toxicology. Human & Experimental Toxicology. 1994;13:481–92. Despite methodological problems with many of the studies, the authors were genuinely puzzled by what they found, and said it fully warranted further research. The journal does not have Hom in the title. Berberis 15:31, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Two points: As per NPOV, we are not supposed to resolve a dispute, merely describe it, and on the topic of homeopathy, this is not the vast majority vs. a fringe. Second, as it is clear that some editors are refusing to entertain sources they disagree with, the appropriate tag for the article should be Totally disputed. Since some editors seem to think they own this article, I'm not going to slap the tag on until it's been discussed a bit. If there's consensus for not tagging it, I won't; but if there's any meaningful disagreement, the tag should be affixed. --Leifern 15:58, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not saying don't include it, just that the summary was interestingly worded by Berberis.

In regards to the 1994 review and meta-analysis of serial agitated dilutions (or SAD) in experimental toxicology. It stated that, "As with clinical studies, the overall quality of toxicology research using SAD preparations is low. The majority of studies either could not be reevaluated by the reviewers or were of such low quality that their likelihood of validity is doubtful. The number of methodologically sound, independently reproduced studies is too small to make any definitive conclusions regarding the effect of SAD preparations in toxicology." Pdelongchamp 16:39, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

<RI>A lack of a positive result does not mean that you just need to try harder to find it. And secondly, Berberis is engaging in quote mining. The editor is taking tiny little comments out of context, as Pdelongchamp is stating, and attempting to prove a point. And to Leifern, this is absolutely vast majority vs. fringe science. The total lack of reputable and verifiable scientific references supporting Homeopathy is indicative of its fringe status. It relies upon one of the principles of pseudoscience: Use of vague, exaggerated or untestable claims. Orangemarlin 16:49, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

This is all your opinion, Orangemarlin. I'm not an advocate for homeopathy, but those who are would dispute this. --Leifern 20:26, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Of course they would. So what? NPoV is that the evidence has time after time shown homeopathy to be completely ineffective. ornis 21:09, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

ornis, please please familiarize yourself thoroughly with NPOV before equating your opinion with the truth. We would be hard pressed to claim as a neutral position that tens of millions of people who use homeopathic remedies are deluding themselves because your interpretation of the literature points a certain way. Wherever there is a controversy, WP should not seek to resolve it but to present it in a way that informs the reader what the controversy is about and allow him/her to reach his/her own conclusions. As an aside, medical doctors do not rely on the scientific method for their work - their training is (rightly) based on clinical experience, which is by definition anecdotal. --Leifern 17:41, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Nonsense. Citing the number of people who believe in a particular topic as proof of that topic's veracity is a common logical fallacy. You might as well claim the truth of young earth creationism, or a jolly fat man who hands out presents at superhuman speed, as evidenced by the number of people who believe in them. In fact, this "teach the controversy" position is strongly reminiscent of creationist rhetoric (not that I'm suggesting you hold beliefs similar to theirs). We have an arbcom ruling that allows us to categorize topics as pseudoscience if there is good evidence of scientific consensus that they are pseudoscience. Just like creationism, astrology, and so on. Cheers, Skinwalker 18:57, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Skinwalker, I think you misunderstood Leifern's argument. He wasn't arguing for homeopathy's veracity, he was demonstrating the significant viewpoint supporting homeopathy and that this view point should hold its due weight in the article. In other words, he was arguing for the support of a NPOV. No one here is saying homeopathy isn't pseudoscience. Pdelongchamp 19:25, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Skinwalker, I don't participate in the evolution vs. creationism debate on Wikipedia, so I'm not in a position to compare. I am not a proponent of homeopathy, nor should it even matter if I were or weren't. The article contains citations to numerous articles that at a minimum demonstrate some doubt about wholesale rejection of homeopathy. I don't know what you mean by a "topic's veracity," but when a large proportion of medical doctors in, for example, Germany and France, prescribe homeopathic remedies in addition to conventional medicine, it's hard to argue that they're in on a scam. --Leifern 10:14, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

If this is true, then just cite the papers and be done with it. But I think you will find that the literature, taken at face value, shows mixed results. For the record, in my opinion homeopathy is one of the silliest theories in the world and I would bet my life that homeopathic remedies at high dilution never have the slightest effect over and above that of plain water. But I reach that conclusion not just on the basis of published experimental results, but also considering possible (and impossible) mechanisms and what I know about how people tick psychologically. These arguments have a large subjective element, so there are human beings that appear to be rational in all other respects that nevertheless come to a different conclusion. --Art Carlson 07:37, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, I've provided 2 systematic reviews of basic research that show mixed results, surprisingly so. It would be better to cite them, filling in the large gaps in the (unsystematic) evidence section, than to reject them a priori. It would be good to mention thermoluminescence studies as well, although without a prior review that might be deemed OR. As for the 'quality' objection raised to some of the lab studies, consider that negative systematic reviews may themselves be poor quality, when assessed using normal critical appraisal techniques. But they are cited here without no caveats whatsoever, indicating editorial bias, as charged. Berberis 08:12, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

These reviews may be cited, but the way you are presenting them is disingenuous. You are engaging in quote mining. The first was published in Allg Hom Zeit, a homeopathy journal with almost no hits in Google Scholar or Isiknowledge. I can't even find the journal's editorial policy to determine whether this paper was peer-reviewed or not, and I can't find the citation list so I can evaluate the primary sources it reviews. The second review (on toxicology) is a better source, but calling the results it reports "mixed" or "surprising" is not a valid summary of its conclusion. They state: "The majority of studies either could not be reevaluated by the reviewers or were of such low quality that their likelihood of validity is doubtful." Cheers, Skinwalker 13:07, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Here's what I said when proposing inclusion of Linde et al: "Despite methodological problems with many of the studies, the authors were genuinely puzzled by what they found, and said it fully warranted further research. The journal does not have Hom in the title." You and others have reacted with accusations of quotemining and disingenuity/ousness? Let the authors speak for themselves:

1. We conducted an overview and quantitative meta-analysis of all experimental literature on the protective effects of serial agitated dilutions (SADs) of toxin preparations. 2. Articles were systematically collected and evaluated for scientific quality using pre-defined methodological criteria and then independently analysed for validity. 3. We found 105 publications exploring the effects of SAD preparations in toxicological systems. 4. The quality of evidence in these studies was low with only 43% achieving one half of the maximum possible quality score and only 31% reported in a fashion that permitted reevaluation of the data. 5. Very few studies were independently replicated using comparable models. 6. Among the high quality studies, positive effects were reported 50% more often than negative effects. 7. Four of 5 outcomes meeting quality and comparability criteria for meta-analysis showed positive effects from SAD preparations. 8. Average percent protection over controls in these preparations was 19.7 (95%Cl 6.2-33.2). 9. Further research with special attention to methodological detail and independent replication should be done.

Re point 4. some at least of the editors here need to realize that most lab research in any field would be rated as 'poor quality' by these standards - controls, blinding, and randomization are not usual in a lot of scitech research. As someone once said, if scientists used scientific method and hypothesis falsification all the time, there would be no science. Point 5 means what it says, and does not mean failed replication, in this case. Re points 6 to 9, please tell us how these should be rephrased for the edification of WP readers, so as to give the impression that the authors found nothing.

Regarding Bluth et al, I did not quote directly, and did not therefore disingenuously omit a sentence as accused.

Re Jutte & Riley, their low potency review shows that the article as a whole is predicated on a false premiss: we don't even know if most homeopathy worldwide uses the ultramolecular potencies that make scientists and some WP editors see red - but we do know that a lot is practiced using material tinctures and molecular potencies, overlapping herbalism. How inconvenient for binary black-white, good-evil thinkers. A more productive and intelligent approach to a disputed and poorly understood and reported subject such as this is to use a plus-minus-interesting framework throughout - as Linde et al did in their toxicology review. But I will not participate, since I'm not used to receiving abuse and allegations of bad faith in my medical writing and editing elsewhere and don't see why I should here, when I'm not even being paid for it. Berberis 10:07, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Re "my medical writing and editing elsewhere " -- CV? &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 21:30, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

James Randi and the box of sleeping pills

Probably shouldn't go in if its sourced to just his website, but secondary sources have reported this several times, its a noteworthy addition I believe. Tmtoulouse 18:07, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

It's amusing yes, but not so notable or pertinent, to counterbalance the fact that it's also troll bait. Anyone interested in randi's views on homeopathy can find out for themselves at his website. ornis 18:12, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

As far as "Scientific testing of homeopathic treatment" (the name of the section) goes, this stunt has about the same quality as does someone who takes the pills and immediately falls asleep. And another thing, why did you (Tmtoulouse) revert the wikilinks to Scientific skepticism, James Randi, and the James Randi Educational Foundation? It looks like a knee jerk (redirected to Patellar reflex). --Art Carlson 19:45, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Cytokine Expression

In this edit, Frenchmango cited a recent in vitro study that found a positive effect of homeopathic preparations. I have reverted this beacuse it does not seem to be notable. Having been published in May, 2007, there has been no time for response from the scientific community. In particular, the results have not been independently replicated. Appearing in the Journal of Alternative and Complementay Medicine, it will be dismissed by many scientists as coming from a biased source. No on-line source is cited, and the information given is insufficient to judge the quality of the study (double blind? statistical significance? number of samples?) The conclusion is weak ("suggested"). In short, there appears to be no reason to single this publication out from the hundreds or thousands of other studies that have been published. --Art Carlson 11:10, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I think this is a questionable revert. Unless we are prepared to say that anything or anyone that advocates "alternative" medicine (whatever that is) lacks credibility, we should avoid characterizing one journal or another as "biased." Better that the journal is properly cited, and that we point out that the results haven't been replicated. Otherwise, we open ourselves to the often-cited criticism that "allopathic medicine" is biased, funded by the pharmaceutical industry, etc. --Leifern 13:23, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

The source was only one contributing factor for the revert. I also did not characterize this journal as biased, but said that many would perceive it that way. The idea is, since we can't provide an exhaustive review of the evidence, we should either look for sources that both sides of the debate consider to be unbiased and reliable, or we should look for sources from the pro side that would appear most convincing to the con side (and vice versa). A single study with a positive conclusion from a mainline journal will convince more people on the fence than a whole slew of articles from homeopathic journals. --Art Carlson 13:34, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Whether or not the journal is biased, is not the problem with that study. The problem is the conclusion is vague, their methods are unclear, and as yet it has neither been repeated nor reviewed. As it stands it's little better than hearsay, and doesn't warrant inclusion. ornis 13:38, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Confusing?

It may be that this is one of those articles where you need to be already immersed in the subject to understand, but I read this article and still can't figure out what the hell the reasoning behind homeopathy is. Why exactly do you need smaller doses for the sick, using medicine that made the healthy ill? Am I understanding any of this correctly?KrytenKoro 08:24, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Reasoning? These days I'd suggest it has more to do with faith and confirmation bias, then reason. When it originated, it had the advantage, that it was much less likely to kill you then some of the standard medical practices of the day, added to which the workings of the body where only just beginning to be understood. Homeopaths, will likely tell you that there's some kind of spirit essence/energy or some such rubbish at work, but frankly I think it's just another scam, and a profitable one at that, particularly when you consider the fact that only a few grams of the active ingredient can be used to make millions of doses of magic water.. in some they don't even bother with those few grams, or water for that matter, did you read the bit about "paper remedies"? ornis 09:46, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Hair of the dog? Seriously I think I used to know but forgot. It's hard to remember things that don't really make sense. But you're right, if there is a rationale, it should be included, and if it is purely empirical, than that should be pointed out, too. --Art Carlson 10:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

It's the same rationale that leads to herbal "medicine", organic food (someone please show me an inorganic cow), magnetic bracelets and the rest of the "natural living" crap. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 20:27, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

From speaking with homeopaths, the body is supposed to "receive" the leftover "essence" in the remedy and then react along the lines of: "oh, is that what's wrong with me? Ok, I'll fix that" and then the body fixes itself on it's own. It's pretty odd but understandable considering it was devised about 200 years ago when blood letting was a common medical practice. I once asked a homeopath the reasoning behind ingesting the remedy. Why isn't it a lotion or a suppository? His response was that it actually didn't need to be ingested and he reluctantly told me that technically you could just hold the remedy or meditate to it. ...yikes... Pdelongchamp 20:40, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

reasoning

Is there a reasoning behind homeopathy? Well, a more interesting question is: Is there a reasoning behind Science and practice? The answer is: Yes there is. An example: Catalysis: is the acceleration (increase in rate) of a chemical reaction by means of a substance, called a catalyst, that is itself not consumed by the overall reaction. Just its presence!!! That idea used to be considered as magic. Is it? Nobody will answer. We, the scientists, will collect data to evaluate this behaviour. We do this because we would like to help practitioners to do their jobs more efficiently and with less undesired side-effects. We do that scientifically, ie. By using methods and techniques that are safe to a certain degree (i.e. statistics) and of course under continuous questioning. Don’t believe us and don’t trust us as Gods… Just read our results and make your own choices. It’s your life and your children lives! Another thing we do is to build models. Imaginary constructions that are trying to explain what we observe. Some times we feel so strong (like a God) and we call them “Laws of nature” but again don’t believe us. They are not Laws. They are just explanatory principles. That’s why there are continuously scientists better than us that construct better models that explain the observed behaviours better than our models (Especially in Physics) Sometimes we build well accepted models that in the first sight, they seem to be unreasonable!!! Einstein models say that if my twin brother travels with close to light speed and returns back after one hour for him, we will be of totally different age!!! Isn’t it unreasonable? It seams but it isn’t. There is a model that explains it, an explanation principle (verified a lot of times) but not “Nature law”. So, is there a reasoning behind homeopathy? Scientists (with the help of practitioners) are trying to collect data regarding the observed behaviour… Scientists are trying to build models i.e. explanation principles. Practitioners are practicing. I personally do not believe that homeopathy is efficient. Actually, I don’t believe that current models of homeopathians describe effectively the observed behaviour. (Definitely nor the west medicine models, if any, explain it). So let’s not confuse practice and research and let researchers take their time to talk about their research results. Until then (ie probably forever) our health is our responsibility and we have to listen carefully all the opinions, accept the acceptable ones and deny the “Laws of Nature” based opinions as dangerous!!!—Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.251.177.77 (talk • contribs) 10:48, 29 June 2007