Talk:History of the Jews in Iran

Untitled

There are constant references to the non-Jew population as gentile. 'Gentile' is a pure Jewish term and not a historical one. It is used in a bad sense. No one calls the non-Jews of US or UK as gentiles. Here the use of this term is inappropriate and must be changed.

Why this section Further decline of Iran-Israel relations and Holocaust denial?

I am not able to understand the reason of specifically mentioning Ahemjedinad and Iran's relation with Israel on page for History of Jews in Iran? Propose to remove that section. Cr!mson K!ng (talk) 22:21, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

The whole section seem biased and does not follow NPOV. For eg.

• President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and members of the Iranian government have resorted to threats against the State of Israel and in Holocaust denial that have added to the precarious nature and insecurity of Iran's small remaining Jewish community.

First there is dispute over issue of statements and cannot be called as "threats" and "holocaust denial". Secondly, no source is given to verify the statements. This is just an example of the first line of that section. The whole section follows the similar pattern Cr!mson K!ng (talk) 22:46, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

So why is there nothing being done about this? What's the next step to clean up this bias and restore some integrity to this content? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.180.142.166 (talk) 15:45, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Content duplication with Persian Jews

There appears to be substantial content duplication between this article and Persian Jews.

This should probably be addressed by either (i) merging the two articles, i.e. replacing this article with a redirect to the appropriate bit of that one; or (ii) reducing the history section there to a very short summary, with a {{main}} tag directing readers here for the full history article.

But having two parallel articles with the essentially the same material (ie a content fork) is not good for maintainability; and gives an impression of utter disorganisation to our readers. Jheald (talk) 17:28, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Date mismatch

The article mentions 3 exiles, one during Jehoiachins era 597bc, and then it mentions "5 years later" Cyrus free'd the Jews from exile in 537 bc, which is an earlier date and not "5 years later" in the introduction.

--87.114.37.8 (talk) 18:54, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, my mistake, BC is before Christ. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.114.37.8 (talk) 19:04, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Overlap with Jewish exodus article

Please see discussion at Talk:Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries#Overlap_with_.22History_of_the_Jews_in....22_articles. Oncenawhile (talk) 10:11, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Edit warring -

I reverted an edit (that was made without use of the edit summary field) leaving the edit summary:

rv insertion of weird, nonstandard, misleading links. (politically motivated?) Please take it to talk to explain this big change if you still feel it's needed. Seems controversial.) Instead of doing as I urged and taking it to talk, the editor reverted my revert. (at least with an edit summary: There was no Jewish migration to "northwestern India" nor "Pakistan" from Mainland Iran. All the placed regions (Georgia, Dagestan) have Jewish communities that directly descend from Iranian Jews (such as the Mountain Jews, Jews in Georgia)) I warned the user. There was still no discussion here on the talk page, but the following was left on my talk page, so I am moving it here and replying:

Hello Elvey,

Per your edit summary, I'm just leaving some info here so that you will know that those changes made were not "without reason" :)

- First of all, Mountain Jews (Jews from Dagestan, Russia/Azerbaijan) are direct descendants from Iranian/Persian Jews. This is both stated in the Persian Jews article, as well as the Mountain Jews article, as well as the sources on the History of the Jews in Iran page itself.

- Georgian Jews have close genetical/historical/migrational links with Persian Jews, if you click on the article and read the sources.

- Furthermore, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia and Dagestan were for centuries part of Iran and only got separated from each other in 1813/1828

- Bukharan Jews, doesn't need an explanation I think.

- Iraqi Jew, are historically closely intertwined.

I just thought it would be nice if I would drop this here per clarification as for some reason you thought it might have been politically motivated for some reason. Northwestern India/Pakistan simply share virtually no history with Iran, nor its Jewish history.

Regards and bests - LouisAragon (talk) 21:19, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

I would appreciate a third opinion on the edit, an opinion as to the facts from someone familiar with these issues, and wonder if admin action on the edit warring would be premature.

Irrespective of the historical "facts", insertion of weird, nonstandard, misleading links is inappropriate, as is edit warring. --Elvey^(t•c) 21:37, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

In spite of Elvey's false accussation (all WP:GF ofc) that I had "removed" his warning on my talk page, which is blatantly wrong as its still there [1] I had no intention to "edit war" nor do I see anything that would or should be labeled as "edit warring". But, no problem, I will further explain my edit summary and edits here on this talk page in due period.

Edit; I see Elvey, that you have alreay copy pasted a part of the story here, thanks for that. I'll just continue it here instead of on your talk page, where I had put it earlier. Regards - LouisAragon (talk) 21:57, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Mountain Jews does seem to be as you say, but it would be better if the links were more like apple than orange. A citation (or citations) that fully support the statement, "The Persian Jewish communities include the ancient (and until the mid-20th century still-extant) communities not only of Iran, but of parts of what is now Armenia, Azerbaijan, Dagestan (nowadays part of Russia), Georgia, Mesopotamia (Iraq), Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan." is/are needed as well.--Elvey^(t•c) 22:22, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Hey, I'll place some sources for now for the nations I added. Might add some more later.

This source (from the Georgian Jews page) states that; "they [Georgian Jews] are closely related to those of the Middle East, including those in Iraq and Iran. "That shows there was significant migration of Jewish populations along the Silk Road beginning in the Persian Empire [Achaemenid Empire]," said Ostrer. It therefore means Georgian Jews partly descend from Jews that migrated during the Achaemenid era to there.

This source states that Jewish immigrants in 400 AD from northern Persia during the Sassanids added to all the Jewish communities that had already been established in the Caucasus region.

This source states that Sassanid King Shapur II deported thousands of Jewish families from Persian Armenia and resettled them at Isfahan (modern Iran), as well as that the Jews who settled in Eghegiz (modern day Yeghegis in Armenia came directly from Persia and kept Persian as their spoken language.

Though not needed, some more references for the Mountain Jews (Jewry from the Republic of Azerbaijan/Dagestan, Russia) who are direct descendants of Persian Jews;

"In reality, the Mountain Jews primarily descend from Persian Jews who came to the Caucasus during the fifth and sixth centuries" (...) This is clear not only by the culture and language of the Mountain Jews but also by their genetic inheritance from the Israelites"

As we can see, these Jewish communities from Azerbaijan-Dagestan-Georgia-Armenia are all historically, genetically, and migrationally related to each other and Persian Jews, through the various Persian empires.

For the Jews in Iraq, well they do not descend from Persian Jews directly, but are closely related due to geographical proximity and the course of history for Iraqi Jews. By that reasoning they should be added, and I could get some sources that more properly state that somewhere later. Many Iraqi Jews migrated to what is nowadays Iran, and vice versa, throughout the centuries/millenia.

Also, we shouldn't forget that swaths of the Caucasus comprising modern day Georgia, Azerbaijan, Dagestan, and Armenia were ruled by Iran until 1813/1828, until Russia conquered it as confirmed in the Treaty of Gulistan and Treaty of Turkmenchay of 1813 and 1828 respectively.

- LouisAragon (talk) 00:49, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm looking at your sources and trying to verify. I see in Begley: "Just a small number of founders started Jewish communities in India, Burma, and Georgia." so perhaps you should put back India? Why do you say "There was no Jewish migration to "northwestern India""?? And again, my primary rationale for the revert needs to be addressed - the weird links. Still don't yet see the content you added being verifiable. (For example, in the case of Georgian and Persian Jews: It's a leap from them being closely related to being a subset of the other.) --Elvey^(t•c) 01:28, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Because. 1) India has never been part of any Iranian empire, unlike Georgia, or the other regions that I added, which have been intermittently ruled by the various Iranian empires since the Achaemenid Empire, for many hundreds of years over the millenia. That is just simple common logic that doesnt need a reference 2) The source that you mentioned states three communities from regions that are separated from each other by many thousands of kilometers away; India/Burma, and Georgia. Its a tertiary statement that needs to be confirmed by a primary statement, e.g Indian Jews descend partially or fully from...etc.etc. Furthermore, India has several Jewish communities such as the Cochin Jews, and none of these are mentioned to be affliated to Persian Jews. 3) I in general dont know what joker had added precisely "northwestern India" to that lede, as it was unsourced, unreferenced, and ungrounded to start with in all ways. Why not eastern india? Why not southern india? Finding references for something that wasn't referenced from the very start nor mentioned anywhere in the article, is kinda weird you know.

It seems in general a person had added those regions (unreasoned/unreferenced) with possibly a political agenda from the start. I merely added regions of which I was able to find references for with a few minutes of work. If there are any other nations that have Jewish communities that directly descend from Persian Jews, I would be more than happy to add them. But as of now, there is simply absolutely no reason for. Maybe when I or others find some more sources.

The weird links? You dont think, that having nations and regions added in a lede that are many thousands of kilometers away from mainland Iran that arent referenced, are commonly known to be historically dissimilar to Iran, nor are adressed in the lede or anything even close to it weird, but when I add nations and regions that are actually bordering Iran, are historically and ethnically close, and even have direct info about their relatedness to Persian jews on their own respective articles (e.g Georgian Jews, Iraqi Jews, Mountain Jews) or are even carved out of Iran in the last ~ 200 yrs, that is somehow weird on the other hand?

Of course, "relatedness" between Jewish communities is relative in many visible degrees and therefore I will change that accordingly later. F.e, though Mountain Jews are direct descendants from Persian Jews, Georgian Jews have varous roots that make the Georgian Jews the Jewish ethnic group they are. Persian Jews make up a part of their origin, historically, genetically, etc.

Anyway, I'll fix that all sometime later.

Regards - LouisAragon (talk) 01:59, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

You seem to be ignoring the point that it would be better if the links were more like apples than oranges. Please address it. In other words, normal: Georgian, Iraqi, Mountain Jews; weird: Azerbaijan, Dagestan. That is,. [[Apple|apples]] vs [[Apple|oranges]]; [[Georgian Jews|Georgian]], [[Iraqi Jews|Iraqi]], [[Mountain Jews|Mountain]] Jews vs [[Mountain Jews|Azerbaijan]], [[History of the Jews in Russia|Dagestan]] --Elvey^(t•c) 21:05, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

You were right about that. The formulation needed tweaking. I've adressed it now. - LouisAragon (talk) 14:01, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Kudos; much better. Still some stuff that seems unverifiable, but I'm going to move on to other articles. Over and out.--Elvey^(t•c) 06:12, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

References

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on History of the Jews in Iran. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20130103080353/http://www.google.com:80/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5juj_KhuuT0v7aaT3PPDmJFbQYrtw?docId=CNG.174be06ad8ee4755308494817ef96f0e.781 to http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5juj_KhuuT0v7aaT3PPDmJFbQYrtw?docId=CNG.174be06ad8ee4755308494817ef96f0e.781

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 05:24, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on History of the Jews in Iran. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061110063645/http://www.iranchamber.com/religions/history_of_iranian_jews1.php to http://www.iranchamber.com/religions/history_of_iranian_jews1.php
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061022024550/http://www.mazdapub.com/Comprehensive-History-Jews.htm to http://www.mazdapub.com/Comprehensive-History-Jews.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 08:44, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:History of the Jews in Abkhazia which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:07, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Book of Esther is fiction, why is it mentioned in the article?

The entire story is fiction. This article is about the HISTORY OF THE JEWS, so why is a piece of fiction added here? https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Purim#Modern_scholarship_views https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Book_of_Esther#Historicity

Sickofthisbs (talk) 18:53, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

"Reza Shah sympathized with Nazi Germany"? Where is the evidence for this?

Not a single source was provided for that insane claim. This needs to be removed. A lot of the things in this article have been added by people who either don't know anything about Iran or are pushing ulterior motives.

Someone also added "During the time of Hitler there were many rumors in Iran that he secretly had converted to Islam and had taken the name Heydar (the title of Imam Ali)" and the source is from Eliz Sanasarian in her book "Religious Minorities in Iran" However, in her book, she states it was one rumor. Eliz's book is also highly questionable, she doesn't substantiate any of her claims with evidence. She also brings up a poem which no one has ever heard of. Using her book as a source should not be allowed. Also, there were pro-Jewish poems which have been preserved and archived, why are those excluded from the article? It's pathetic that a certain narrative is being spun in this whole article. This needs to be removed.

"In 1936 head of Reichbank and the financial mastermind of Nazi Germany travelled to Tehran and many important commercial agreements were signed between the two countries. In 1939, Nazi Germany sent over 7500 books with racial tones advocating for greater collaboration between Aryan Persians and Germans. In 1936, Iranians were called pure Aryans and were excluded from Nurenberg laws." "Hitler personally promised that if he defeats Russia, he will return all of the Persian land taken by Russians during the nineteenth and twentieth centuries." These have NOTHING to do with the article, why are these here? These need to be removed.

"Railway company was specifically ordered to avoid employing any person of Jewish origin in any of its subdivisions." Do you have a real source for this? Otherwise, this needs to be removed.

"Many gentile anti-Semites were preparing for Johoudkoshan (Massacre of the Jews) and were warning Jews in the streets to leave Iran while they can." "Nightly newspapers were distributed in Tehran and swastikas were often painted on Jewish homes and shops. "Thus many Persian Jews welcomed the British troops to capture Iran in 1942, since the alternative was to be taken over by Germans."}} This is hearsay from Homa Sarshar, who was born in Shiraz in 1946. I've not found any articles written by Jews in Iran during the 1940s that welcomed the British troops. The British troops in Iran stole most of the food in Iran which led a famine that killed three to four million Iranians. This needs to be removed.

"In order to fight the growing racial antisemitism among the Iranian population, many Jews joined the Tudeh party and advocated for communism." So let me get this straight, Jews welcomed the British troops, and they also joined a nationalistic party that was communistic with extreme anti-British sentiments? You are contradicting yourself. This needs to be removed.

"Even though Jews comprised less than 2 percent of Iranian population, almost fifty percent of the members of the Tudeh party were Jewish. Tudeh party was the only party among the Iranian political parties that accepted Jews with open arms." Where is the evidence? The Tudeh party was massive and the Jewish population in Iran wasn't large enough to represent half of the party. This needs to be removed.

"when Reza Shah ordered water to be cut off from Jewish Ghetto of Tehran and Kornfeld successfully convinced Shah to resolve the matter." If this is referring to the neighborhood Oudlajan, it needs to be removed because it wasn't a ghetto, it was one of the WEALTHIEST neighborhoods during the Qajar era and until the Pahlavi era. Why does it say it's a ghetto in the article? There were Zoroastrians and Jews living there, it wasn't for Jews only. The water wasn't cut because of the Jews, it was cut for entirely different reasons and you can read about it in the source that is mentioned in the article. https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Iran#cite_note-68.

"Jewish sources report that many gentiles tried to invade the Jewish ghetto and were dispersed by the police." Which "ghetto" was this? Can we have the name of the neighborhood? You keep referring to every neighborhood in Iran as a "ghetto" when Jews live there. Most cities, towns and villages in Iran were slums, affecting most Muslims, Zoroastrians, Christians and Jews.

"Iranian Jews might be related to their desire for survival and led to their overselling of their anti-Israel positions." This is an assumption and it needs to be removed. And quite frankly, it is a terrible assumption. Many university professors and politicians in Iran have said that the Zionist entity is a country because it's recognized as such by the UN, and nothing happened to those professors and politicians. https://www.haaretz.com/no-one-appointed-iran-to-destroy-israel-says-iranian-professor-1.5373260 https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Sadegh_Zibakalam

Sickofthisbs (talk) 20:30, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

In re to your first comment,== "'Reza Shah sympathized with Nazi Germany'? Where is the evidence for this?". I've provided some sources for you  (page 111) contains mention of Reza Shah showing tendencies to Germany. You can also look here  Emmett87 (talk) 08:40, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

References

Two years and some months later and this was the best you could come up with which amounts to nothing.

First, the British and Russians claimed they had to invade Iran in WW2 because Iran refused to expel some hundreds of non-Nazi German nationals. This was nothing more than an excuse that the British and Russians used to invade and keep dividing Iran.

Page 111 has one sentence and it provides no sources because the sentence is repeating a hoax, and it's such a stretched misrepresentation because it ignores that Iran was seeking help from Germans many centuries before the Nazi party existed, and Iran was seeking help from people in countries that didn't have an imperialistic role in Iran centuries before the Nazi party existed.

What are you trying to say with your second link? Its abstract has nothing to do with anything you've said, or are you saying that Iran is a monolith and sympathetic to Nazis because Nazis tried to influence Iranians? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sickofthisbs (talk • contribs) 18:17, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Rashid-al-Din Hamadani.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:23, 11 January 2022 (UTC)