Talk:Hermes

Equivalents?

An editor has just removed Odin from the infobox, along with the supporting link to Jens Peter Schjødt's chapter on scholarly equivalence: "Mercury – Wotan – Óðinn: One or Many?" linked just above. I was about to undo the removal, absent any form of edit summary, then noticed the question mark in the linked title and decided it might be more helpful to read the linked work, from beginning to end.

Schjødt does not support the equivalence of Hermes with Odin. He mentions the essentially Greek Hermes exactly twice (and not in connection with Odin) during a speculative exploration of the scholarly limits and historic shortfalls of such comparisons. His subject is an essentially Roman Mercury, not Hermes. They are not the same. There is no evidence for Hermes as contact, influence or equivalent to any figure in Norse religion or myth. Odin's own development and identity are strongly disputed in modern scholarship, as is "well known by all scholars dealing with Old Norse religion or mythology." Infoboxes are supposed to summarise what's essential, sure and certain in the scholarship; which this is not. The editors of the Odin article make no such claim regarding Hermes. They also seem to avoid using infoboxes. Haploidavey (talk) 07:37, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

@Haploidavey: Thanks for this. We should certainly not be asserting that Odin is the Norse equivalent of Hermes! This would seem to come from the simplistic (and false) assumption that since Mercury is "equivalent" to Hermes, and Mercury is "equivalent" to Odin (via the "equivalence" of Wotan and Odin?) then that must mean that Odin is equivalent to  Hermes. In my opinion this whole concept of "equivalence" between gods is too nuanced, speculative, simplistic and misleading to be part of the infobox at all.  I would go farther and opine that the whole discussion of a possible relationship between Mercury and Odin in the section "In the Roman period" while interesting should be removed as too off-topic and misleading (at best). Paul August ☎ 12:01, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes indeed; if A looks like B, and B looks like C, so A must look like C and they all belong in the infobox. I've come across several attempts to justify the infobox inclusion of such "equivalents" by adding speculative, digressive, off-topic material to the article body, seemingly supported but with the most tenuous connections (even amounting to original research). There's a lot of it strewn about in the G&R field, and it's not at all helpful. I'm probably also guilty in this. The whole article has a difficult, indisciplined history and needs careful attention. The Roman period material really needs a clean-up; that "Mercury/Hermes" is troubling. Haploidavey (talk) 12:58, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Various well-meaning editors have imported google-translations from Portuguese and French sources (possibly others, over a decade or two), which could probably do with checking. Haploidavey (talk) 13:24, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, thanks for this. I'd have liked to follow up by removing Odin from the Hermes equivalents in Interpretatio graeca#Cross-cultural equivalencies, but that table's criterion is gods of various cultures whom the Greeks or Romans identified (either explicitly in surviving works, or as supported by the analyses of modern scholars) with their own gods and heroes (my emphasis), so it has Hermes -> Mercury -> Odin. It's all rather redolent of The Key to All Mythologies. NebY (talk) 19:36, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Around and around it goes... appropos of not very much, I'd love to have met Eliot. "Middlemarch" is superb, eh? Alas, all I have is a twisted screenplay vision of Viking Eric (Kirk Douglas, of course) en route to Valhalla, done to a glorious death by Tony Curtis' blunt sword and calling for "H...e...r...m...e...s!!!!" Haploidavey (talk) 08:24, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

<Snort> NebY (talk) 21:34, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Loki as norse equivalent

Hi I think Loki should be his Norse equivalent because their both tricksters and beardless, Loki is the only beardless god in the Norse pantheon. Ghost Cacus (talk) 17:55, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

If a reliable scholarly source says he's equivalent, then we can say he's equivalent. We can't reason these things through and draw conclusions based on our own opinions. Please read the message at the top of this and every other talk-page. Haploidavey (talk) 18:10, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Winged sandals - meatpuppet confession

My dad 1Greenjack1 took this photo of Hermes winged sandals. I convinced him it would be good for Wikipedia but was too shy to add it to the article himself so I did it on his behalf. I believe this is considered meatpuppeting (which I explained to my boomer dad to his amusement) so I'm disclosing for fair play etc. jengod (talk) 21:38, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

His relationship to Odysseus

The article liberally refers to Odysseus as his great-grandson, in direct reference to the Odyssey. This feels very misinformative, since Autolycus, his grandfather, was first referred to as the son of Hermes by Ovid (likely after misreading the Odyssey, in which he blesses Autolycus for being a devoted follower). Referring to him as his grandson while discussing the Odyssey leads to the (VERY POPULAR) misconception that Hermes and Odysseus are relatives in the Odyssey, when they are not. Floreditor (talk) 15:42, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

In the article, this relationship is attributed to Apollodorus of Athens, not Ovid. If you can provide evidence from scholarly sources that Apollodorus was wrong, feel free to provide it.--Atlan (talk) 12:19, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

There is no wrong or right here (Odysseus is a mythological character), mythological stories often have several different versions. So Apollodorus has this relationship (apparently), and Ovid too (according to Floreditor), but in the Odyssey there is (again apparently) no mention of such a relationship, so when discussing the Odyssey it is misleading to state such a relationship. Paul August ☎ 14:42, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, the Odyssey does describe a relationship between Hermes and Autolycus and it's not a blood relationship; Autolycus burns top-quality sacrifices to Hermes, so Hermes befriends him and grants Autolycus certain skill(s).[1] Our Autolycus article has a table showing Hermes as Autolycus's father according to Homer, uncited and with none of the article's direct citations of the Odyssey supporting it. The Apollodorus text is a little surprising; first Autolycus is Jason's grandfather, then Autolycus son of Hermes goes on the Argo with Jason - are they the same person?[2] Ah, the joys of primary sources! NebY (talk) 17:00, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

In the table in Hermes#Lovers, victims and children, we do cite "Scholia on Homer, Iliad, 10. 266" and "Eustathius on Homer, 804" for Autolycus being a child of Hermes. I hope those haven't been mistaken for the Iliad or Odyssey themselves. (As citations, those rather fail us; I wonder if they've been taken from some secondary source which should be cited as referencing thus.) NebY (talk) 18:40, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

“ If you can provide evidence from scholarly sources that Apollodorus was wrong” — as the other commenter mentioned, that isn’t how a mythology works. There is not “wrong” myths. All myths are equally correct and valid, just different sources.

In the context of the Odyssey it is very misleading to refer to them as being related. We should refer to characters based on the stories we are talking about, and not try to narrativize different, unrelated myths by linking them together.

What you are advocating for here is appealing to the lowest common denominator of mythology. Rather than saying “Autolycus has no father in the Odyssey” you think we should say “Autolycus’ father was Hermes” even though it wouldn’t be mentioned for another 1,000 years.

Calling him his great-grandson also leads to a misunderstanding of the Odyssey as a whole. Odysseus is not exceptional because he is related to a god, he is exceptional because he is a cunning hero, and favored by the gods. Hermes isn’t his grandpa, he’s his ally. Floreditor (talk) 02:35, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I only used the term "wrong" because you said Hermes being related to Odysseus is a misconception. Indeed, you still seem to be arguing the statement is wrong even though you agree there is no right or wrong when it comes to mythical characters. That said, I do think you make a good point where sources contradict each other and how in this case that is not very well reflected in the article.--Atlan (talk) 03:04, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think Floreditor is suggesting there is any truth or falsity to the claim "Odysseus is the great-grandson of Hermes", just that the use of the phrase In the Odyssey, Hermes helps his great-grand son, the protagonist Odysseus... would be problematic, as it implies that Odysseus is the great-grandson of Hermes in the Odyssey, which is not the case. – Michael Aurel (talk) 06:11, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

As you say, Autolycus is not the son of Hermes in the Odyssey, and I've removed the mention of Odysseus as his great-grandson. – Michael Aurel (talk) 04:49, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks to Floreditor, for raising the issue, and to Michael Aurel, for addressing it. Paul August ☎ 13:30, 19 October 2024 (UTC)