Talk:Gyumri

Cimmerian origin of name

I first read about it in the city museum, and to be honest I never heard of Greek colonization in the region other than the coastal area of the Black Sea. I think this needs to be mentioned like it's done in the Crimea article. The first Kingdom that the Cimmerians destroyed was Urartu, Gyumri (Kumari) was on the territory of Urartu.

This site mentions it in the history section: http://www.gyumri.am/eng/history.html It's also mentioned here: "Gomer. Gomer is apparently the oldest son of Japheth. He is listed first and is one of only two sons whose descendants are listed. He is traditionally connected to the Cimmerians and the North Pontic steppe regions from about 1200 BC. The Cimmerians lent their name to the Crimean peninsula. A connection with the ancient Armenian city of Gyumri (also attested as Kumairie, Kumayri, Gumri, Gimira, etc.) is an intriguing possibility for the original Gomerite homeland. "

http://www.pursiful.com/writings/table_of_nations.html --Eupator 19:47, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the link, I have updated the main page with it.

As far as the supposed Greek origins of the first settlement go, the information comes from Brittanica and the other reference book cited on the main page. With both alternative explanations attributed now, we should be in good shape :) Ahasuerus 20:23, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Here is an excellent article on the biblical patriarchs: http://www.imninalu.net/2history03.htm#North

Gyumri: An Armenian Rendition of a Turkish name?

Wasn't it the Turks who called the city "Gumru"? I remember reading somewhere that the correct name of the city is supposed to be "Kumayri" and that after independence, residents decided to call it "Gyumri" because "Kumayri" phonetically sounded too much like the Armenian expression "Kou mayri" which means "Your mothers'". I'm not sure if this is at all accurate, but the thing about the city name sounding like the expression rings true. Hakob 02:38, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I have heard that too :) To be honest I'm not sure if it's an urban legend or not. Considering that Gegharkunik was never changed to different name because of what it sounds like i'm guesing it's just an urban legend.--Eupator 21:14, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Turks use Gumru/Gümrü, it doesn't mean anything in Turkish as much as I know but Gümrük means Customs.--Kagan the Barbarian 11:07, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

It was called Gumru when it was part of the Ottoman Empire, but that doesn't mean the name is Turkish in origin. C'mon, tell all Eupator, what does "Gegharkunik" sound like! Meowy 16:58, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Expanding History

I'll be expanding the History section of this article, anyone want to give me a hand? ;-)

Here's a page that has some useful info: http://www.gyumri.am/eng/history.html Hakob 06:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Old city views

Uploaded some images on Commons. You can use them in this article :) FHen 16:11, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Deleted copyright

Je vous prie de supprimer la photo de Charles Aznavour Image:Aznavour-statue.jpg de cette page qui est sous copyright. Wikipedia est le site sous la licence libre, donc luttons contre les violences de copyright. Cordialement, Armenak

Dear 85.107.45.145. The marked towns were in Western Armenia, from where some Armenians emigrated during the 1826-28 war. They became "Turkish" cities after the Armenian Genocide. So pls discuss your postfactual edits here. Andranikpasha (talk) 09:53, 23 January 2008 (UTC) I also made some corrections, included the more reliable number of inhabitants from [1]. Andranikpasha (talk) 23:24, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Gyumri continued to develop in the 19th century, when, along with its surroundings, it became part of Russia, as a result of the Russo-Persian War (1804-1813).

This phrase is misleading. It comes afterÄrabian regime" and at once it ecame Part of the Russian empire under which it developed. Why is intentionally kept quiet about its Iranian Period? Becoming part of the Russian ampire after the Russo-Persian wars assumes that it was part of Iran=Persia. History should be neutral and not written in a anationalistic way. I have also said this in a number of occasion to editors from republic of Azerbaijan--Babakexorramdin (talk) 16:34, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Gap

There is a gap in the history section, which is more than a thousand years. Could somebody who has sources improve the section? --Seksen iki yüz kırk beş (talk) 15:24, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Azerbaijani version of the name

Azerbaijani people have lived in this city for centuries and have been deported by Soviet or Armenian authorities. Lots of people from this city are of Azerbaijani decent. They all use Azerbaijani version of the name of this city. Thus, Azerbaijani version of the name also should be published. --Verman1 (talk) 18:27, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

This is precisely the same thing you've posted on the Yerevan and Artik talk pages. Perhaps you can introduce some sources as well as give your opinion if we should may be extend the same logic to the Baku, Kirovabad/Ganja, Tbilisi, and even Moscow pages on Wikipedia. I don't think habitation is the sole criteria for inclusion of a certain group's spelling of a town or city's name. Something much more substantial is required. --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 20:08, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Just look at the article Yerevan and you can clearly see the article stating that At the beginning of the 20th century, Yerevan city's population was over 29,000, of which 49% were Azerbaijani Tatars (today referred to as Azerbaijanis), 48% Armenians and 2% Russians. --Verman1 (talk) 07:14, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

And? Armenians once formed a plurality in Tbilisi until very recently, but I don't see anyone clamoring to add the way they spelled the name to that article. The point is that the presence of a certain group is not the sole criteria to add the spelling to an article. The way you are going about this, furthermore, seems like you are trying to push a point of view, so please demonstrate better evidence than population statistics. Thanks.

Azerbaijani Tatars are not what are now referred to as Azerbaijani today. Azerbaijani Tatars are what Azerbaijani's in northern Iran are referred to.HyeSK (talk) 19:09, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Universities in Gyumri

I think the part about the universities and institutions of higher education in Gyumri is too short. Maybe we could try to add some detailed information about the universities (faculties, research areas, etc.). A list of all universities would be nice to have. Afterwards, maybe we could add an individual entry for each university. It would be really nice, if I could find some students from Gyumri. --Dvin (talk) 15:55, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

File:Avetik-Issahakian.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Gümrü

in Turkish. Böri (talk) 11:40, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Photo of Azerbaijanis

Interfase added an inappropriate photo of an insignificant (less than 4%) ethnic minority of a town to support Azeri territorial claims. Editors should exercise discretion and rely on Talk pages when images may be controversial or promotional. If the addition of an image is challenged by another editor, it was not uncontroversial. 188.255.44.254 (talk) 14:59, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

I see you have some problems with Azerbaijani people. But it is your own problem and has nothing with this article. Azerbaijanis were a part of the history of this town. This photo is on a the postcard created during the period of the Russian Empire (Azeri propagandist?). At the end of the 19th century (during the period of Russian Empire) in Gymri more than 1000 Azerbaijanis lived. And this image reflects it and is very informative for readers. This photo shows us part of history of this town. I still don't understand what claims do you talk about? If you have another historical photos of the population of this town please fell free and add. But your removing of this historical image, which reflects history of this town, is just vandalism. --Interfase (talk) 15:15, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Too much people (150000) are living in Gyumri to put photoes of every 1000 here. 1000 is a little number for that and nothing else. be sure I have no problems with Azeris. 188.255.44.254 (talk) 15:23, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Do you understand the difference between historical photo and photo of the modern population of the town? --Interfase (talk) 15:25, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Why this "historical" Azerbaijani postcard is not dated? 188.255.44.254 (talk) 15:26, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

This is not Azerbaijani postcard. This is a postcatd of the Russian Empire. See description (written with pre-reform orthography). It was made before 1917. --Interfase (talk) 15:30, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Before 1917 is not a date (nor written on the card). It is not dated (while almost every Russian postcard was correctly dated to be used by post) and even a fake a think. 188.255.44.254 (talk) 15:35, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

I see you started to say some absurd arguments. First. you removed this photo saying that it is unsignificant, now you say that the postcard is a fake. This discussion is useless. Any discussion with anonimous, who just want to remove images, is useless. I noted administrators about your vandalism actions. --Interfase (talk) 15:46, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Discussion at talk is necessary if you're going to add a controversial photo with many issues: 1) it is redundant, 2) it is not dated, 3) the publisher is not known. Every postcard has a publisher, Russia is not a publisher. 188.255.44.254 (talk) 15:58, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

I'd suggest the IP to avoid using phrases like "propaganda" and Interfase to be more willing discuss before adding pictures, because Azerbaijanis have never been a significant part of Gyumri' population. Just to make this clear, there were 4 times more Russian in Gyumri at the turn of the 20th century than Azeris. --Երևանցի ^talk 17:42, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

And? It's not a reason to remove historical image. --Interfase (talk) 17:47, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

See WP:WEIGHT and WP:NPOV. If you think you're right there are more civil ways to solve this dispute and edit warring is not one of them. --Երևանցի ^talk 18:42, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Western Armenian

Both Western, and Eastern Armenian are utilozed by Armenians the world over. In Armenia as well, there is both Eastern and Western dialect spoken. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1012:B00A:1F1D:83C7:DD1F:CBE2:6644 (talk) 18:48, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

Western Armenian has never been official in Armenia (including in Gyumri). It is simply irrelevant here. We don't put the Levantine Arabic version of, say, Cairo in its intro. --Երևանցի ^talk 23:06, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

The Armenian language has two primary dialects - Eastern and Western. Eastern Armenian is spoken primarily in Armenia, Russia, Georgia, and Iran. The other major populations of Armenians around the world are speakers of the Western dialect. These nations include the U.S., France, UK, Germany, Brasil, and Argentina among many others. In the current day and age, the two dialects use different spellings for various words, and many times completely different words for the same topic. Eastern Armenian has been highly permeated by the Russian language while Western Armenian and Krapar (Classic Armenian) have not. Also, the Eastern Armenian alphabet has been modified at various times under Russian and Soviet rule, with various letters being modified or completely removed to "Russify" the language.

I, on various wikipages, have added the Western Armenian spelling to the pages, as it is relevant to proper understanding of the Armenian language. Listing only one dialect (Eastern) as the language Armenian (hy) is dishonest and disingenuous. It provides an incorrect understanding of the language. My edits are providing a greater understanding - is this not what we are all here to do?

The arguments from two wikiusers are that Western Armenian is not the official language of Armenia (neither is Eastern Armenian - Armenian is the official language) or that Eastern is more widely spoken (which is in fact false). Since when do either of these reasons negate the relevance of a language? And, since when do false arguments hold weight? Changes reverted back, as your arguments are invalid. And, no kidding, as Levantine Arabic is not spoken in Egypt and never was. Also, Levantine Arabic uses the same letters, only the spoken tongue is different. Western Armenian is spoken in Armenia, however. HyeSK (talk) 23:27, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Place name variations are not there to provide an understanding of (or an acknowledgment of the existence of) the various dialects or branches of a language. Generally, the alternative spellings of a place name, or the giving of alternative names for the same place, need to have a direct connection to the history of, or the inhabitants (past or present) of, that particular place. You are not giving any evidence to indicate that this is the case for Gyumri (nor, I think, is it the case for Gyumri). Also, your arguments, if accepted, open a particular door that should not be opened - for example, there have been past attempts at getting place names in Armenia rendered using the modern Azeri alphabet. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 22:30, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

This is why I wish people had more knowledge of the language AND history. Gyumri's dialect is that of Western Armenian. This page actually did NOT have the Western spelling, I added it and Yerevantsi had a heart attack over it, then changed it to "classic spelling". Western Armenian is a more widely spoken dialect which uses this spelling and if we are making an honest Wikipedia, it would be most proper to use "Western Armenian" over "Classical Armenian". Also, you must understand Western Armenian speakers will search for these places with the Western Armenian spelling. As far as the Azeri alphabet, that is nothing more than a propaganda machine. HyeSK (talk) 10:15, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

I did not have a "heart attack". Do not use inflammatory language. You have already been warned. See WP:CIVIL for more. Your rhetoric doesn't help anybody here. You still have not proved how the Western Armenian spelling (Կիւմրի) is relevant in the lead. Also Կիւմրի is NOT the classical spelling, Գիւմրի is. The case is different for Yerevan, because that city has always been known by that name. Gyumri was called Alexandropol in the 19th and early 20th centuries and Գիւմրի was never widely used when the classical spelling was dominant in Armenian literature. On the contrary, Yerevan has been more or less a significant town for several centuries now and its name was spelled Երեւան in all of Armenian literature until the 1922-40 reform. --Երևանցի ^talk 13:17, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Yerevantsi is right - it is all rhetoric unless you provide sources. For the Western Armenian spelling to be relevant for the lede sources that state that Gyumri had a significant population of Western Armenian speakers will need to be provided, and some evidence that they referred to their city as Կիւմրի, rather than Alexandropol. A large % of Gyumri's growth in the 1830s was from Armenians coming from Erzurum - but is Erzurum a zone of Western Armenians speakers? Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:41, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

I changed to to classical, as per YOUR edit on the Yerevan page. If it is acceptable to you there, then why not here? Answer me this, what is it hurting? Are you able to tell me how this takes away from the page, or decreases the validity of the page? I happen to believe it only adds to these points. It's not rhetoric, it's historical fact and a valid and widely used form of Armenian. And, I will keep fighting for it. Take a look at the page of Armenian language on Wiki. You will see the dialect from what is now know as Erzurmum is spoken in Gyumri - it's a Western dialect. I invite anyone to challenge this. And, Yerevan was NOT always know as Yerevan. It was first known as Erebuni. Get your history straight. I should also point out Yerevantsis reasons for why Western Armenian should not be used are false, so he keeps switching why it should not be included. It's an agenda, not an honest argument. He is also completely incorrect on his comments about the classical spelling. Կ was used as the name Gyumri has the "G" pronunciation. The Գ being used (which has a "K" sound in Western Armenian or Classical Armenian) would not have happened until the Soviet Era, when the pronunciation of the letters was altered. Again, get your facts straight. https://www.britannica.com/place/Gyumri HyeSK (talk) 22:26, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Գ was pronounced "g" in Eastern Armenian prior to the Soviet reform (and was pronounced "g" in Classical Armenian). The Soviet reform did not change the pronunciation of most, if not all, letters, but rather altered the orthography. Jackal 05:09, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Jackal, it's nice to meet you. For the sake of argument, let's say you're right. It doesn't change the fact Gyumri was also know as Kumari and Kumayri. I co-founded an organization called "Gyumri Project Hope". I was our job to find the history of Gyumri and capitalize on it to improve the city and increase tourism among other areas.HyeSK (talk) 09:12, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Has anyone considered involving a linguist or two into the conversation? Here are two:

• TaivoLinguist
• Florian Blaschke

Just a thought. --Kansas Bear (talk) 00:38, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm not overly well informed on issues concerning Modern Armenian dialects, but Vahagn Petrosyan might be able to help. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 03:04, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Like Florian Blaschke, I'm not at all conversant with issues of Armenian, Armenian dialectology, or the Armenian diaspora. --Taivo (talk) 06:22, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

First, the correct Standard Eastern Armenian pronunciation of Gymuri is [gjumˈɾi], not [ˈgjumɾi]. As for including the Traditional spelling and the Western Armenian form, I have no opinion on this. I would include the Karin dialect pronunciation of the city and not the Standard Western Armenian, which is what HyeSK is trying to do. --Vahagn Petrosyan (talk) 11:43, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

What is known as the Gyumri is really the Karin (Erzurum) dialect, as you rightly pointed out. But I don't notice any significant difference in how Gyumri residents pronounce Gyumri as compared how it is pronounced by Yerevan residents. --Երևանցի ^talk 15:34, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Possibly. I am not familiar with the phonology of the Karin dialect. In any case, it is not the same as Standard Western Armenian. --Vahagn Petrosyan (talk) 08:09, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

I think that content that is difficult to summarise, that needs detailed explanations to be correctly understood, or has some uncertainty attached to it, should not be in the lede but should be dealt with in the article body. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 14:21, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

There is no "standard" Western Armenian. All of the dialects, which are not Eastern - i.e. spoken in Georgia, Iran, Armenia, or any of the former CIS, use the same spelling and letters under the dialect of Western Armenian - եւ not և, կ for the English "g" sound not "գ", "տ" for the English "d" sound not "դ", etc., etc. I am really getting the feel people are just giving their opinion, rather than having deep knowledge on the subject. Out of all the excuses I've received for why listing Western Armenian is irrelevant, not one was true, and new ones are made up as the discussion goes along. What is the battle about? Western Armenian is spoken by millions of Armenians around the world and has different spellings from Eastern Armenian. Someone please tell me how adding both spellings takes away from pages. HyeSK (talk) 20:18, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

You don't know what you're talking about. There is Standard (Literary) Western Armenian. It is based on the Constantinople dialect but is not identical with it. Armenian dialects do not fall neatly into "Eastern" and "Western" groupings. Instead, there are eleven dialect groups according to Jahukyan's multi-feature statistical classification. If you want to give the Standard Western Armenian pronunciation of the city name (I am not opposed to this in principle), be so kind not to confuse orthography with language. Both Standard Eastern Armenian and Standard Western Armenian can be written in reformed and traditional orthographies. By the way, եւ vs և has nothing to do with orthography. Those are just typographical variants of each other, such as Latin ff vs ff. --Vahagn Petrosyan (talk) 08:52, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Western Armenian has never been standardized like Eastern Armenian has. Yes, there are 11 dialect groups, but to my knowledge they are all considered "Western dialects" - as they use the same pronunciation of letters and use the same words such as «կուգամ» instead of «կալիս եմ» or «կգամ» or «ըլլա» vs. «լինի» to name a few. I would like to learn more about what you are saying, but I don't find it proper to do on this page. Could you please propose another way for us to communicate on this subject? Also, if you are not against this principle, do you agree with listing it as Western Armenian? HyeSK (talk) 10:08, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, I am very busy these days. Can't communicate. I don't mind listing Western Armenian, but I am not a Wikipedia regular. I don't know about Wikipedia's policies. --Vahagn Petrosyan (talk) 13:17, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Not a problem. For the rest of the individuals on this discussion. Is the issue now resolved? Western Armenian is an acceptable designation. HyeSK (talk) 17:14, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

No, you still need to present sources. Any "deep knowledge on the subject" is irrelevant without sources because this knowledge is original research without sources. If there are no sources you cannot place this content into the article, even if it is accurate content.Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 22:43, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I would be very curious to learn as to how all 11 dialect groups are considered Western. Until then, I would kindly request HyeSK cease inserting Western Armenian pronunciations into articles of locations where it was never spoken: Jermuk is not pronounced chermoug by its inhabitants and it makes little sense to include it there even as a kind of supplement. In my opinion, the pronunciations used in each Armenian article need to be determined by popularity or preeminence of usage but also by historical accuracy and legitimacy. For example, I am against having the Eastern pronunciation of writer Hagop Baronian's name in his respective article--as a Western Armenian, he never would have used it (except, perhaps, in a humorous manner). Likewise, Eastern Armenian author Derenik Demirchian does not need to be rendered into the Western Terenig Demirjian (and hasn't been...yet). It is de rigueur for those in Armenian studies to render most names in the Eastern but when writing about Western Armenian speakers, they usually make the decision to stick with the Western pronunciation (such as scholar James R. Russell did in this article--see the first full paragraph on page 3). Jackal 08:19, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Armenian language#Consonants and Classification des dialectes arméniens definitely indicate that the dialects of Armenian cannot be straightforwardly classified as either western or eastern, and the pronunciation of the stop consonants in the two standard dialects each represents only two variants of at least seven. I don't know what the pronunciation in the Karin dialect is, though. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 22:11, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

I have presented evidence unlike you, Jackel. How about you present evidence to back up your claims? This statement is to Tiptoethrutheminefield, as well. I clearly showed the dialect spoken in Gyumri is Western dialect. Writing in one form of Armenian and then referring to it as if it is the only form of Armenian is dishonest and misleading. As I have asked many times now - how is it hurting the article? How is it not improving the article? HyeSK (talk) 18:35, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Sarajevo has a section containing its other names. HyeSK (talk) 19:39, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

You have actually not presented even one source to support your proposed content addition. Please read WP:OR to understand the status in Wikipedia of your "presented evidence". Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 22:16, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Also, according to Karin dialect#Consonants, the գ in Գյումրի is really pronounced as a voiced [gʰ] not a voiceless [kʰ] in that dialect, so I don't understand what HyeSK's complaint is really all about! HyeSK seems to be unaware that in the local dialect, unlike in Standard Western Armenian, գ does not merge with թ, but is kept apart, so the spelling (based on the SWA pronunciation) he proposes is inaccurate (moreover, the merger is not actually shown in SWA spelling, the letters are used as in Classical Armenian and therefore kept separate even if the sounds are pronounced identically). --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:30, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Ah, I think what HyeSK is trying to argue is that Գյումրի Gyumri was originally spelt with կ, and the new spelling arose as a consequence of the local pronunciation with [ɡ], which was supposedly rendered as գ by speakers of Standard Eastern Armenian. However, it is necessary to prove that the name of the city was ever spelt with կ in Classical Armenian (the fact that the Hurrian name was Kumayri does not prove this). --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:58, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

My opinion is as follows. The name of the city should be spelled how the residents of Gyumri currently spell it. If someone here can actually find an example of an older spelling as it would have been spelled by residents of Gyumri at the time (e.g., in 19th-century Russian Armenia, not in 19th-century Ottoman Armenia), then I would support an additional entry along the lines of "Historical: [Historical spelling] ([Dialect])", where [Dialect] is Western Armenian, Karin Dialect, or Classical Armenian (depending on what the sources indicate). I do not, however, support adding any spelling other than the current spelling until an appropriate old written source is found. I do not find theoretical arguments about what the spelling "must have been" to be compelling. Ketone16 (talk) 03:57, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Again, is anyone able to refute my claims (which I have supported with evidence via Wikipedia and other websites)? Also, I am not proposing we take away the Eastern Armenian spelling - merely that we have BOTH of the spellings. And, actually, I am arguing the Western Armenian spelling is Կիւմրի (which it is) and is valid.

Please reference the Armenian wikipage for Gyumri and the two articles from Western Armenian news sources, using the spelling I have proposed as an addition:

1.) https://hy.wiki.x.io/wiki/%D4%B3%D5%AB%D6%82%D5%B4%D6%80%D5%AB, 2.)http://www.agos.com.tr/am/hvotvadzi/12683/hahasdani-aghn-yes-giwmri, 3.)http://www.araraddaily.com/Araradnew/DailyNews-%D5%B0%D5%A1%D5%B5%D5%AF%D5%A1%D5%AF%D5%A1%D5%B6-%D5%AC%D5%B8%D6%82%D6%80%D5%A5%D6%80-Lebanese-Political-News/3146/news/19/Lebanese-Armenian-News/ HyeSK (talk) 10:48, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

How are these relevant to the discussion? Ketone16 (talk) 00:59, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

No one is arguing that modern Western Armenian doesn't have a word for Gyumri. There's also an English word, a Russian word, a Turkish word, an Azerbaijani word, and I guess Italian and Dutch words for Gyumri as well. Whether or not there is a Western Armenian word for Gyumri is irrelevant. It's only relevant what the city was called by its residents, or if there is some historical name that globally transcended the local name (as is the case, for example, for some former Roman cities). What we need are examples of how Gyumri was spelled by its citizens (i.e., not by people in Ottoman Armenia) before it was renamed Aleksandropol. We don't need original research speculating about what the spelling "must have been". Ketone16 (talk) 01:23, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Our job is not to refute your original research. Your job is to provide an actual source that shows the historical spelling of Gyumri by the people of Gyumri, not sources in the modern Western Armenian dialect. Ketone16 (talk) 01:28, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

What an absurd notion. Did you read the articles? My presumption is that you do not read or write in Armenian. It specifically speaks of the name prior to Aleksandropol. And, still today, western speakers spell it as Կիւմրի: It doesn't matter how the majority of locals spell it. I posted factual documentation to the name. There is even a wikipage, in Armenian, using the both the spellings I provided Գիւմրի I think we'll just get a mediator involved at this point. HyeSK (talk) 09:34, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

I do not read Armenian, nor is that a requirement for editing the English-language Wikipedia. Since this is the English-language Wikipedia, perhaps you could make yourself useful by providing translations of the relevant portions. I put all three articles through Google Translate (which did better on some articles than others), but did not see anything that referred to the pre-Aleksandropol name -- at least not anything that had a reliable source associated with it. Being able to find another wikipage with both spellings is irrelevant. Wikipedia does not operate by precedent, it operates by policies. Copying something from another Wikipedia article does not help if that article is not reliably sourced. I don't think we need a mediator, I think we need you to respect the Wikipedia policies on original research, POV-pushing, and reliable sources. I note that you've been warned other times about edit warring for POV-pushing over Armenian nationalism and specifically this Western Armenian obsession. Apparently you haven't learned much from the experiences. Ketone16 (talk) 15:58, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Watch how you address me, first and foremost. See WP:CIVIL for more. Secondly, I provided an article, in English, previously in the thread - make yourself useful and read the entire thread to find it. Second, the articles use the spelling I am proposing to add, just as the wikipage I have provided, which is referenced. You also seem to pull information from your backside, as I have NEVER been warned about "nationalism". And I do not have an "obsession" with Western Armenian - that's Yerevantsi who accused me of such rubbish, when it is him who has an agenda against Western Armenian. It is the most widely spoken Armenian and had relevancy. Next time you try to make a point, try using factual information instead of making things up.HyeSK (talk) 12:21, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

All, I have provided documentation, yet received no response from an active profile. HyeSK (talk) 19:03, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

That's because your documentation is not actually a source for the content you want to add. Newspapers written in Western Armenian will naturally spell Gyumri using the WA spelling, just like a newspaper in China will naturally spell it using Chinese characters. However, the mere existence of these spellings does not mean they should be inserted into the article. We need sources that indicate that the WA spelling has some sort of specific connection to the population (past or present) of Gyumri. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:30, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

That is exactly what the articles did. One article specifically discusses all three names. Are you even reading them? Could we get a moderator involved in this?HyeSK (talk) 20:15, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

To be honest, I think more than enough resilience has been shown towards user "HyeSK". The user in question is pretty much only here to push his POV agenda into these articles, given the number of times he started edit-wars about this whole "Western Armenian-Eastern Armenian" stuff, and given by the context of his related edits, e.g. (""You just have a chip on your shoulder, for some reason, towards Western Armenian. It will be, and has been, always relevant. Have a little respect for the most widely spoken dialect of Armenian. And, use a little logic once in a while". Given his pattern of re-instignating edit-wars about this matter, of which his first attempt was as early as 12 Februari 2016 (!), I'd say this is on the border of WP:NOTHERE. Ever since this revision of 12 Februari 2016, he has re-added this content eight more times on the Yerevan page, by the sole means of edit-warring,[2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9] and some eight times on the Gyumri page.[10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17] - LouisAragon (talk) 04:47, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Actually, I just made a brief dig, and I believe that he has been abusing IP socks as well in order to be able to do the same thing. Please take a look at how IP 185.13.199.81 literally reinstated the exact same edit originally made by "HyeSK", on the Gyumri article, as well as the Yerevan article, and in both circumstances used an edit summary fully akin to those used by HyeSK. - LouisAragon (talk) 04:47, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Nice try, but I only use my username. How about you make accusations based on fact and not your biased opinion? Being I am the only one to provide sources, your argument is dead out of the water. Please, explain to me how you classify edit warring if solid sources are used? HyeSK (talk) 08:48, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

I used to be a Wikipedia editor and closed my old account due to this nonsense. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see people are being intellectually dishonest on this subject. I took the time out of my day to read all of this and HyeSK is correct. The user has posted various sources and you all have changed your arguments every time the user supports their arguments. I am an Armenian, from Toronto, but I was born and raised in Gyumri until the age of 14. In school we had many books where the old spelling of Gyumri was used. I doubt they are unavailable digitally. On the same note, I see Երևանցի has followed this dishonesty on other pages, which I will refute if needed. HyeSK this is the reason I initially stopped editing on Wiki, as a majority of the editors work together to promote their world view, rather than to create a intellectually honest platform. You're not alone, and I am here to support where valid. This is definitely a case where it's valid. The page should have both spellings, if even solely based off of the news articles posted which clearly use the spelling addition proposed. LouisAragon if you want to accuse HyeSK of edit warring, then the same should be applied to the other parties, as they are denying sourced fact. What do you expect a user, who provides documentation, to do? Allow the dishonesty to stand? If there was one argument made and HyeSK was unable to produce documentation to support their claim, OK, but that's not the case. TheManOfTheHour (talk) 10:27, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

TheManOfTheHour - Am I sure appreciative someone has brought some logic to this discussion and, well, to Wikipedia in general. I am perplexed by the intellectually disingenuous behavior over this issue. As you know, I have posted 3 articles from Western Armenian publications using the proper spelling of the city. I am not even asking to remove the current spelling, only to add a second one. I believe this also serves to make Wikipedia more accessible to Western speakers. HyeSK (talk) 15:11, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141221231235/http://www.reporter.am/go/article/2009-03-27-gyumri-has-preserved-the-aura-and-architecture-of-the-19th-century to http://www.reporter.am/go/article/2009-03-27-gyumri-has-preserved-the-aura-and-architecture-of-the-19th-century

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External links modified

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Classical Spelling

All:

Hello. I read through the talk page and noticed the Classical Orthography had been added to the references at the bottom of the page; that's a positive step forward. There is only one change I made and I accidentally performed the changed without being logged in. The Classical Orthography actually uses Կ instead of Գ, so I altered the spelling to be Կիւմրի.

Let me know if you have any questions.

ArmenianSniper (talk) 10:57, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

References