Talk:Greek resistance

Article start

Loosely modelling this on French Resistance. Hope to develop it as part of the History of Greece series, currently collaboration of the week. --Jpbrenna 1 July 2005 04:00 (UTC)

EAM and ELAS

The fact is that they were not two different resistance organizations. Rather, there was the EAM as a wide anti-occupation front which created ELAS as its military operations branch. - Michalis Famelis 2 July 2005 15:05 (UTC)

Praises

This has been added:

The resistance put up by the Greeks in WW2 was recognised as at the time as immense by both the allied and German sides looking on. At a time when mighty nations such as France with 45 million population had collapsed in 17 days, the Greeks managed to defeat the an Italian army twice its size and with many times its fire power means and then hold off the German and Bulgarian invasion for 2 months. This was longer than anyother nation up to that point. Winston Chruchill famously said after the Greek-Italian battle, "From now one we wont say Greeks fight like heroes, but that heroes fight like Greeks".

The measure of resistance was also paid considerable homage to by German officals:

Hitler's Chief of Staff Field Marshall Keitel stated at Nurenberg that, "The unbelievable strong resistance of the Greeks delayed by two or more vital months the German attack against Russia; if we did not have this long delay, the outcome of the war would have been different in the eastern front and in the war in general.”

A speech made at the Reichstag in 1941 said of the campaign; “It must be said, for the sake of historical truth, that amongst all our opponents, only the Greeks fought with such endless courage and defiance of death.” The diary of Joseph Goebbels 9 April 1941: “I forbid the Press to underestimate the Greeks, to defame them... The Fuhrer admires the bravery of Greeks.” —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.49.160.63 (talk • contribs) 02:51, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Famine during occupation

I have studied many sources and the matter is much more complicated than blaming the Germans. Greece was mainly producing oil, sultanas and tobacco, all taken in large by the Germans, leaving little for the local economy. The winter of 41 was also one of the worst recorded and Greece relied heavily on grains shipped by the British - who stopped all imports in order to deprive the Germans from supply. The Greek population in big cities fell victim of this strategy as much as the German exploitation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deadjune (talk • contribs) 13:17, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

ELAS

I have heard talk that ELAS committed many war attrocities during German occupation and were to blame for many problems of the time, does anyone have any further information on this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rmpoole (talk • contribs) 21:53, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

This is still a very politically charged subject in Greece and no common ground can be found between the two sides, so I would ignore it if I were you, it tends to open a can of worms. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.112.34.133 (talk • contribs) 22:48, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

This may open a can of worms, but an article called : the Greek resistance is not credible if it doesn't deal with it.

Also, there should be a linguistic revision of this article. I am a non-native speaker, so I will not attempt it, but even I realize that the English of this article is terrible, with sometimes involuntarily comical effects, right in the midst of narration of tragical eventsGiordaano 13:22, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

MANY??? like what for example? like the germans? or the british? or the X para-military groups? or my mother?

THis throwing of sh*** on the face of ELAS must stop some time, it's not fun anymore, you know, it is becoming serious, and we are talking about people that denied everything they had to go up the mountains ang GET KILLED FOR US!! for god's sake!

Beltenebros 20:29, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The above comment is an example of how charged this issue is. There are two irreconcilable versions of history for that particular era:

1. ELAS was the largest and most active resistance group in Greece, causing serious problems to the Germans, helping the oppressed Greeks and paving the way for the German withdrawal from Greece.

2. ELAS was a militant branch of the -then illegal- Communist Party and their main concern was turning Greece, or part of it, into a communist state through any means necessary. They actively hunted down all non-communist resistance groups and individuals, and terrorised the populace to coerce support and gather manpower.

The current article seems to be leaning more towards the first version, although it avoids making any commentary.

Beltenebros, I have to admit that I am not sure what you are saying in your first line of text, although it's obvious that you are annoyed by a previous comment. Could you please rephrase your reply, if you are still involved in wikipedia?

--pathanb (talk) 10:50, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Truth of the matter is that there are no reliable sources (that I know of, you are welcome to prove me wrong) for any atrocities commited by ELAS. There are many allegations of atrocities, mainly coming from the far right, but none of them is substantial. One major example is Meligalas.94.69.138.130 (talk) 15:05, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

This throwing of shit on Greek resistance fighters really must stop, it's offensive to myself and for what my grandfather fought for after being largely abandoned by the rest of the allied forces in favor of the battle in Africa. It's nonsense and after more than 70 years it must stop. --101.163.101.170 (talk) 18:17, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Other Article

http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Resistance_during_the_Holocaust —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.74.169.220 (talk • contribs) 20:16, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Famine

I think it is worth mentioning the famine of 41-42 in relation to the occupation forces and the coll. government. That is why I restored the sentence removed by Factuarius, rephrasing it however, because the previous wording seemed to me POV.

The famine was not, of caurse, caused by the government, but the latter was partly responsible for it. There were various factors that led to the famine, but one of the reasons which exacerbated it, was the government's mismanagement or, to phrase it slightly differently, its inefficiency to guarantee the proper supply of the capital with the necessary agricultural products (including cereals) from the province. In his excellent analysis, Fleischer (Στέμμα και Σβάστιγγα, Α') explains how and why this happened. Delays in imports because of a German-English antagonism contributed to the delayed reaction to the famine. In any case, I do not have the book in front of me right now, but I try to give an idea of what seemed to me as a comprehensive analysis even-handedly splitting the responsibilities of each protagonist of the crisis. After a month from now, I can be more accurate in my remarks!

I also found Factuarius' explanation of the inflation as a bit simplistic. I agree that it was not a responsibility of the government (it had no actual influence on monetary policy), but it was not (or it was not only) the gold the King took that caused inflation, but the disrepute and unreliability of the currency, caused by the facts (how credible can the currency of an occupied country be?), but also by a series of serious mistakes of the occupation forces, which the government was unable to prevent. Specialists were sent from Germany to tackle the issue, but again incoherent and incomplete mixes of experimental policies failed to prevent what looked inevitable. Fleischer treats this issue as well in an analysis, which again looked to me comprehensive.--Yannismarou (talk) 21:32, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry Yannismarou but you explained why you made that edit about the famine but at the same time:

• You rv the British into Allied although at the time there where no Allies at all and the Cairo HQ (where the exile Greek government was) was exclusively British through the entire war, as in the rest of the article is mentioned, without saying a word. It seems in the article that when the British are doing something good are "Allies" when bad are "British"
• You rv Koukidis incident without saying a word
• You rv Drama Revolt together with the 15,000 victims without saying a word
• You rv the Greek indignation in what happened when the Bulgarians occupied Macedonia into "Greek nationalist passions" without a word
• You rv the Armed groups into Armed bands without a word

Consequently I only can answer you for the first and only explained rv. Well, I believe you are wrong, the British secret files as declassified in 1975 are saying an entirely different story and are very clear and convincing about who was responsible for the famine; and in their secret high class meetings they explain with numbers why THEY were clearly responsible for it and nobody other. I am going to give more about it tomorrow as to help to clear the issue. As for the inflation I believe you are again wrong. At the time, there was a thing they called "the golden rule". With the exception of the very large countries such as US, Britain, France etc. every country's currency had the value of the gold reserve the country had in its pocket. No gold no currency of any value. Without it the currency was just paper for toilet ie money lacking value. After May '41 Greece had not an ounce of gold. From then on, It was a matter of time to start printing banknotes of billions. I will also produce refs about that. As for the rest reverts maybe some explanations from you will help me to answer. --Factuarius (talk) 02:20, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Oups! Sorry, but the other reverts where unintentional! I don't know how I performed this miracle! Anyway, I reverted myself using the rollback tool against me! Concerning the famine, I agree that the British where MAINLY but not SOLELY responsible. In Fleischer's book, there are specific references to the inadequacy of the government to convince and co-ordinate suppliers and producers from the rest of Greece to provide the capital with the supplies it desperately needed. Unfortunately, I'll have access to the book and the primary sources mentioend there in about a month, when I'll return to Greece. If my arguments do not cover you, feel free to revert me; I'll come back on the issue in about a month from now. The discussion about the inflation is basically philosophical, because my edit did not made any such reference; I just commented on an edit summary of yours. I promise I'll come back on this issue again in a month from now! Patience!--Yannismarou (talk) 14:55, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

No problem Yannismarou. As for Fleiscer take your time, I see no need for rash. I'll bring my refs here and I'll wait yours. --Factuarius (talk) 12:43, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Belligerents Board and Other articles (See also)

I have modify the board according to the standard of the boards of other resistances at wikipedia (e.g. French Resistance and Polish Resistance). At the left side are the occupation forces and at the right side the resistance forces. Isn't that a good idea?

Also to the references of other arcticles I have replaced the Armia Krajowa's article with the arcticle of Polish resistance movement in World War II as more complete article about the polish resistance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.74.246.70 (talk) 22:14, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

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Result and Rebel Groups

Why at the result is not declared that the rebels won? I suggest to add Greek Victory there, before the overall withdrawing. Also, at this time all the rebel groups were on the same side. At the article it seems that ELAS and EDES were fighting. Nobody was anti-communist then (except a function of EDES), they only cared about the liberation of the country. Of course after the WW2 there was a civil war among the right-wing function of EDES (that controled the army and had British help) and the left-wing rebel group of ELAS. But this is not about the Resistance.

Requested move 18 May 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Andrewa (talk) 08:59, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

---

Greek Resistance → Greek resistance – The NGRAM makes it clear that "Greek R/resistance" overwhelmingly refers to this event and is not usually capitalized. Therefore, per WP:NCCAPS and MOS:CAPS, it should not be capitalized in the article title. (t · c) buidhe 03:30, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

• Support in light of more specific ngram stats. Dicklyon (talk) 04:42, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Language in “Resistance in Cities” section

At the end of the part about radio operators in cities, the article says, "operators were often shot on the spot, and those were the lucky ones, since immediate execution prevented torture." As a newcomer to Wikipedia, I don't know if this is the language we want in our articles - isn't part of the appeal of Wikipedia that we offer an unbiased (as much as possible) view? Additionally, wouldn't categorizing being summarily executed as better than torture, which is a moral, not factual question, and therefore would be outside the purview of this article. Therefore, I believe that the language used here should be modified to something more neutral, such as "operators were often shot on the spot, and if not summarily executed, they would be tortured and then executed." Tangentially, a source is required to show whether or not radio operators were shot 'usually' shot on the spot.

Shadowmetallic (talk) 15:33, 28 July 2023 (UTC) Shadowmetallic (talk) 15:33, 28 July 2023 (UTC)