Talk:Greek War of Independence

Initial hostility and support

I think the stance of Austria, Hungary, Switzerland as well as others' should be more detailed and with more info.

Adding Albanians in the beligerent list under Ottoman Empire

I suggest adding Albanians under the Ottoman beligerent list against the Greek rebels.

During the Greek War of Independence (1821-1829) against Ottoman rule, the Albanians supported the Ottoman Empire and fought against the Greek rebels, due to loyalty to the Ottoman rulers, because they feared potential Greek dominance in the region and because of religion causes.

A surprisingly high number Albanians held positions within the Ottoman administration and military, and they were often used to suppress rebellions, including the Greek uprising

Albanian leaders and chieftains sided with the Ottomans due to perceived benefits or protection of their interests.

To support this suggestion I will refer some facts to take into consideration:

Ismail Kemal (Vlora) was an Albanian politician and statesman who is regarded as the founder of modern Albania. He served as the first prime minister of Albania from December 1912 until his resignation in January 1914. Thus he ias the best knowledge of the role of Albanians during the Ottoman rule.

He wrote several times that Albanians fully supported the Ottoman Empire:

-"We are the only Balkan people really attached to the Ottoman Empire (Since that time (the death of Skanderbeg), although the Albanians have never given up their passionate desire for independence, they have been the only Balkan people really attached to the Ottoman Empire, always ready to sup­port it, always happy to help strengthen it and to profit by its strength". Albania and the Albanians’, reprinted in Yllii Mengjezit (from first publication in The Quarterly Review, 1917), vol. 2, no. 5 (29 September 1917), pp. 129-34, here p. 134.)

-We served the Turkish empire faithfully ("… and we are proud to feel that during the Ottoman domination, in spite of much unjust treatment from the Turkish rulers, we served the Empire faithfully". Ismail Kamal Bey, The memoirs of Ismail Kemal Bey, Constantinople, 1920, p.4)

-Albanians are the only Balkan people really attached to the Ottoman Empire (the Albanians), " they have been the only Balkan people really attached to the Ottoman Empire, always ready to support it, always happy to help strengthen it and to profit by its strength". Ismail Kamal Bey, The memoirs of Ismail Kemal Bey, Konstantinople, 1920, p.361)

-The Sultan entrusted Albanians his harem, his ministries, his military ("The person of the Sultan, his palace, and even his harem, were entrusted to Albanians. In the Ministries and in the civil and military services, Albanians occupied the highest and most distinguished positions".Isma’il Kamal Bey, The memoirs of Ismail Kemal Bey, Konstantinople, 1920, p.364)

The Albanian website memorie.al wrote “In Elbasan, Haxhi Qamil’s rebels burned the national flag, shouting ‘the crows died’. Haxhi Qamil is celebrated as a hero in Albania and several folk songs refer him (https://shorturl.at/nqwCV)

Albanian Kosovar Revivalists Isa Boletini and Rizha Gjakova wanted Albania to remain under the Sultan. They are considered by Albanians to be important figures for their struggles for the independence of Albania and especially the Albanian uprising of the year 1912.

-In 1912, Albanian  rebels entered Skopje but left without declaring independence from the Ottoman Empire. Riza Yakova and Isa Boletini, on 12 Aug. 1912 declared "We do not want autonomy and we cannot separate from the Ottoman Empire"

Albanian friend and powerful lobbyist for the Albanian issue, British politician Aubrey Herbert confesses from meeting with Isa Boletin in Mitrovica on August 27, 2012: According to Isa Boleti «Albanians did not want autonomy.» Isa Bolettini added that «unification of north with south [of Albania] would not be favorable«, and that «Albania wanted to stay under the Sultan.» (Aubrey Herbert, ′′ Ben Kendim: A Record of Eastern Travel «, London: Hutchinson & Co., 1924, page 198-213).

-In another page British diplomat Aubrey Herbert reports about Isa Boletini(Ben Kendim: A Record of Eastern Travel, Hutchinson, 1924,p.205):

"I asked:

'Did the Albanians want autonomy?'

“No,” he said, “they didn't want to. What they wanted was not to interfere."

"You want union," I said, "between north and south?"

"Well," he said, "we are one people," but he went on to say that the union would not be beneficial to the north, because the Toske, the southerners, were more educated and intelligent than the northerners.

Albania wanted to be under the Sultan, but the Albanians must have arms to defend their country, and those arms they had were taken from them by the foolish Turks."

Albanian Hasan Prishtina reports that Isa Boletini did not even want to hear not only about independence but not even about autonomy. In fact, he had told the Turk, Ibrahim Pasha: «We do not want autonomy, we cannot separate from the Ottomans (Hasan Bey Prishtina: Brief Memoir on the Albanian Uprising of 1912)

Professors Mithat Aydin from Pamukkale University, Turkey, Mehmet Tütüncü from SOTA Netherlands, and Ardian Muhaj from Albanian History Institute, Tirana, found, translated, and published the Ottoman document that supports the full support of Albanians to Ottomans and vice versa. (Mithat Aydin, Mehmet Tütüncü and Ardian Muhaj. Published at 20 november 2018 via  academia.edu)

In the Gallipoli campaign, there were about 35.000 Albanians from all the territories with Albanian population in the Balkans that went to Gallipoli voluntarily to fight on the side of the Turks. At least 25.000 Albanians were killed during the Gallipoli Campaign.

In 1911 , when Sultan Reshat Pasha visited Kosovo , 100.000 Albanians welcomed him as leader and father.

In 1914, Albanians rebelled against the separation from the Ottoman Empire. The motto of the rebels was «Duam, duam Babën– Turqinë!» (We want, we want our father—Turkey) and they raised the flag of the Ottoman Empire and restored Ottoman Turkish as the national language.

Faik Konica wrote: "the vast majority of the people of Albania received the gift given [the independent state] with dissatisfaction." (Faik Konica, «History of Certain Changes«, Dielli newspaper, May 6, 1926) Ipapas (talk) 08:51, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Albanians should be added as belligerents on the Greek side as well in that case. The Souliotes and the Arvanites were all Albanian, including those from Hydra, for example, who made great contributions to the Greek cause. Adding “Albanians” to one side is WP:UNDUE.

Additionally, many of those figures you listed changed their stances from pro-independence to pro-autonomy and back to pro-independence according to what promises the Ottoman government made to them and how they acted on those promises. They participated in many pro-independence activities, and many of them were heavily involved in multiple military conflicts with the Ottomans. The independence of Albania was supported by most Albanians aside from some Muslim extremists, which culminated in the revolt which you speak of in 1914 - this revolt was mainly led by peasants in central Albania, and was heavily opposed by Albanians from the north, the south, Kosovo etc. The Albanians suffered just as much as the Greeks if not more during the reign of the Ottoman Empire. They were used as soldiers due to their prowess and reputation as warriors and fighters, that is true, but they were left behind entirely in regards to education, infrastructure, development, trade etc. The Ottomans oppressed the Albanians just as they oppressed the Greeks. I get that you are trying to make the point that Albanians were pro-Ottoman, but the countless Albanian rebellions, uprisings and general anti-Ottoman activities during the Ottoman period clearly illustrate that they did not want to be part of the Ottoman Empire and therefore under the rule of foreigners. Botushali (talk) 10:52, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

"The Ottoman Reaction" section

The article, as of now, states P1: "The news that the Greeks had revolted sparked murderous fury all over the Ottoman Empire". It adds a reference to a source, this being Q1: "Brewer, David The Greek War of Independence, London: Overlook Duckworth, 2011 pp. 100–101."

DISCLAIMER: I don't have access to the source (Q1), so I cannot assess how P1 and Q1 are related to each other, or how Q1 warrants P1. It may be the case that Q1 solves all contentions stated below.

The statement P1 includes the wording "murderous fury all over the Ottoman Empire".

CONTENTION 1: "murderous fury" is not assessable objectively. It would require being privy to psychological states of people in the past. I am not sure such knowledge is accessible to any scientifically rigorous degree presently.

CONTENTION 2: granting that assessing "murderous fury" objectively be possible, the assessment of "fury all over the Ottoman Empire", even if it were possible, seems IMPROBABLE, given the size of the Ottoman Empire, and the amount of research that would be necessary to substantiate the claim.

CONCLUSIVE CONTENTION: P1 is not an assertion of fact, nor an objective description of an event. It is a sentence that expresses the feelings and position of the writer on the subject. Therefore, it doesn't belong in a section of the text where facts or objective descriptions are required. As the text is such, the statement should be amended for accuracy or removed. 240D:1A:DA1:500:8580:4865:E0C:124C (talk) 02:18, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Article - Nikolaos Gioulekas

Greetings, This biography for Nikolaos Gioulekas has zero references, and needs at least one incoming link to remove the Orphan tag. Asking for help here as article states that Gioulekas was a captain in the Greek War of Independence of 1821. Regards, JoeNMLC (talk) 14:54, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Albanian Revolutionaries

@Piccco there [1] should be a mention of Albanian revolutionaries just like Italian, Serbian and Romanian revolutionaries are mentioned. Just like in other articles [2] [3][4] there is a mention of Greek revolutionaries (as ethnicity) in wars not related directly to Greece. Denying this while on the same article other nations (way lesser in numbers, importance and impact) are mentioned makes it POV biased and WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 14:30, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Nonsense. The Serbian and Romanian revolutionaries' ultimate goal was the creation of independent Serbia and Romania. This was definitely not the case of the Souliotes, they fought for an independent Greece, not an independent Albania. Their ethnic origins are completely beyond the scope of the infobox. Absolutely no way. Khirurg (talk) 15:06, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Hello RoyalHeritageAlb, I can see why at first this can appear a bit tricky. Besides the British, the Russians etc. who came as soldiers of their own empires, the revolutionaries you mentioned are listed separately not on the basis of enthicity, but as groups who belonged or were affiliated to distinct, already existing polities or organizations, whose primary interests were different from the Greek revolution, and came knowingly as foreigners to assist the defeat of the Ottomans. The Serbians are listed as representatives of the principality of Serbia, the Romanians came from the principalities of Moldavia and Wallachia, and the Italians belonged to the Italian revolutionary society of the Carbonari. Now that I see it, I do believe that the links should change to those articles, rather than the articles of the respective ethnicities, for more accuracy. Piccco (talk) 15:12, 27 August 2024 (UTC)