Talk:Ghor es-Safi

Poor editing, contradictory info

There is little logic to the text, and the logical sequence was missing, which makes the material almost useless to a reader who doesn't have the patience to re-read and organise the information by himself. Much more care and effort are needed in understanding the sources, and in reproducing their content in a logical and concise manner. That's concerning the user. For the editor who wants to pick it up from here, there is also a huge amount of oversourcing for a minimal amount of useful information.

Archaeology section:

"Finds at the site suggest presence of human settlement for several different historical eras: 8th to 9th, 12th to 14th, 15th to 16th, and 20th centuries (including the Early Bronze, Byzantine, and [[Islamic Golden Age|late Islamic Periods]]."

It's complete nonsense. C8-9, 12-14, 15-16 cover the Early Muslim, Crusader/Ayyubid, Mamluk, and Earli(est) Ottoman periods, but no Bronze Age and Byzantine period. The Islamic Golden Age is defined on Wiki as C8-14, whereas "late Islamic Period" needs defining, but seems to coincide with the Ottoman period, so C16 or later, till - when? That means: the "hidden" wikilink (Islamic Golden Age) doesn't correspond to its visible content (late Islamic Period). That's called misleading the user. Additionally, C15-16 + 20 are not mentioned in the list of periods. So in the end, the listed centuries and listed periods only overlap in the middle, C8-14 as Islamic Golden Age (but NOT as Late Islamic period); all else doesn't (Early Bronze Age and Byzantine Period on the one side, and C15-16 + 20 on the other - huge time spans!).

Tawahin es-Sukkar sugar cane factory section:

"Efforts were mostly focused on learning about a sugar factory ... sugar is considered by some scholars to have been the "cash crop" of the southern Levant during the medieval period. ... There is both an eastern and western pressing room which helped archaeologists understand the settlement and agricultural patterns at the site since 12,000 years ago."

Makes absolutely no sense. A medieval pressing room is some 800 years old, has no 12,000 years of history and cannot help understand the settlement and agricultural patterns over 12 millennia. The archaeological layout and stratigraphy of the site as a whole maybe, but that's not what is says. What is actually meant here? Arminden (talk) 14:26, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Konstantinos D. Politis needs article

He's been the main archaeologist for this area, the initiator for the Greek institute in charge, as well as for the local museum - see his LinkedIn page. Also consider articles for:

• Hellenic Society for Near Eastern Studies, University of Ioannina
• Zoara Project
• Museum at the Lowest Point on Earth

Arminden (talk) 05:53, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

What is G.a.S? Definition! Also: size?

The lead is supposed to give a definition of the topic. Here it doesn't.

A ghor is a type of valley. What are we talking about here? 1) A valley? If so, how large? Or 2) a specific archaeological site within that ghor-type valley? Or sometimes (1), sometimes (2)? Also: Is there a modern settlement there (village, town) beyond the museum?

"Ghor es-Safi... is an area in the Jordan valley located in the Wadi al-Hasa."

A valley in a valley in a valley? Doesn't make much sense. Ghor is a valley/plain, and wadi is also a valley.

"The location is depicted on the 6th-century Madaba map as "Zoara.""

What is depicted on the map under that name is a town, not a "location".

How large is the Ghor as-Safi as a ghor/valley, to understand if one town can cover its entire area, w/o any other settlements standing there? Pls define it geographically: it stretches from... to... What are the surrounding features? Maybe the eastern escarpment of the Jordan Rift Valley (E), the Dead Sea (W), Wadi Hasa or its valley floor (S?), ??? (N), I don't know. And that's the problem: I read the art. and I still don't know :)) Arminden (talk) 19:10, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Hi Makeandtoss. Maybe you can help out with this? Thanks. Arminden (talk) 18:35, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Maybe you can help out with a couple more things:

1. Is Lot's Cave considered to be within the Ghor as-Safi, or only close to it?
2. Could you please add an "Etymology" section, with a definition for ghor? Root of the word; exact meaning; local or literary Arabic; is the entire Jordan Valley and Dead Sea basin a ghor (from-till); why do some view it all as one single ghor ('the Ghor'), but Politis talks about each section as a separate ghor? The questions any non-Arabic-speaker has when bumping into this topic.

Many thanks! Arminden (talk) 18:47, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Complicated. Ghour means valley but not really since it is only used in the context of valleys along the Jordan rift valley afaik. Jordan valley = Ghour Al-Urdun, a general area with no political meanings but geographical one. Ghour as Safi administratively is a qada within the Al-Aghwar Al-Jannubiyah liwa (the southern ghours) within the Karak Governorate. And yes Lot’s cave is within Ghor as Safi if you define it as a liwa. Ghour informally is also a general area that is low so it could contain valleys. And apparently there is also a Ghour as Safi village which I assume was the originally intended scope of this WP article. Makeandtoss (talk) 18:54, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

From google maps Lot’s cave and the lowest museum are a kilometer northeast of the village of Ghour as Safi, while Wadi al Hasa approximately forms its southern border. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:02, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! I wrote a new related question before reading your answer, sorry.

Yep, that's where it always ends: untranslatable :))

The geographical term must have a root and traditional meaning. The administrative districts can be arbitrary, aren't too helpful.

A "modern town of Safi" is mentioned on the Lot's Cave page. The 1979 1:250.000 archaeol. map shows an "es-Safi" marked with the "village with police station" sign. A police station & a museum make a modern town not, but might become the nucleus for one. So there's a village, but probably just called (as-)Safi, unless you find it officially registered as Ghor as-Safi. If Wadi Musa is a town, then Ghor as-Safi can be too, but if it's just as-Safi, we should know that. Thanks and sorry for all these questions, but encyclopedias were initially conceived for European minds, and they work differently and can look pedantic. Arminden (talk) 19:42, 11 February 2024 (UTC)