Talk:Geography of Middle-earth

"Rushdown (Middle-earth)" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Rushdown (Middle-earth). Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Hog Farm (talk) 03:41, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Proposed merger of Old Forest

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Withdrawn. Hog Farm (talk) 18:56, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

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I'm proposing merging Old Forest into this article. The Old Forest is clearly in the scope of this article, the length of this article overall is not an issue, and I believe that the Old Forest would be best explained within the context of this article. Some of the detail from that article will be lost, for length concerns, but there's a room for a couple paragraphs on this topic. Hog Farm (talk) 18:50, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Why would that be necessary? The Old Forest is clearly notable; we already have 8 reliable secondary sources listed, and there's plenty of detail already on the topic without hunting for more. There's scope, I guess, for a general article on Forests in Middle-earth and the importance of trees and woods in Tolkien's thought, the concept of the wildwood full of woodwoses, elves, ents, and so on; and a merge to such an article might make sense, though Lothlorien, Fangorn, and Mirkwood all have worthy articles and much scholarly attention also; a merger to a pure bit of geography would rather miss all of that. My tuppence'orth. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:14, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Just an idea. I agree that the Old Forest would have stand-alone notability, I just personally think that it might fit better in an overall article. Self-disclosure: I'm a bit of a deletionist/reductionist myself, which is probably fairly obvious. Of the sources in Old Forest, the first two actually deal more with the concepts of forests overall than with the Old Forest itself. Ref 5 appears to be a school assignment of some sort. Personally, a merger somewhere would be my inclination per WP:PAGEDECIDE, but I respect the belief of those who disagree with me on that, because the page could definitely stand alone by itself. Hog Farm (talk) 19:29, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Hmm. Well I certainly agree with you, Hog Farm, that the article isn't very satisfactory for several reasons, but its relationships are not mainly geographic. Part of it probably belongs with Tom Bombadil, master of the Old Forest; part of it actually concerns Middle-earth forests in general, and we have a gap there, partly filled by Mirkwood but that wouldn't do as a home for any of this. I have begun a Trees and forests in Middle-earth article (I meant to start it as a draft, but my finger slipped, so I felt I'd better get it started properly), and there is much to say there. (The other author who admitted she was "arboreal" was Ursula Le Guin ... perhaps Trees in Fiction one day ...). But none of the articles mentioned is a logical a merger target. I suspect editing the article will be the best answer. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:45, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"List of Middle-earth rivers" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect List of Middle-earth rivers. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 August 14#List of Middle-earth rivers until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Hog Farm _Bacon 23:53, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Origins?

How is the Origins section and its map not pure WP:OR and WP:SYNTH? Does a text or map exist where JRR or Christopher Tolkien make the presented associations? How are the personal seculations of John Garth substantial or even notable? ♆ CUSH ♆ 09:55, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

All the statements both in the text and in the image are reliably cited, so nothing is original research by any editor. John Garth is a respected biographer and Tolkien scholar. His statements about the origins of Middle-earth's geographic features are (as cited in text and caption) in his book The Worlds of J. R. R. Tolkien. That book has been reviewed favourably by Tolkien scholars, by newspapers including The Times, and by literary critics including in the New York Journal of Books. Several of the statements actually stem from Tolkien himself, for example his letter #168 links Gondor and Venice. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:13, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Geography of Middle-earth/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: LunaEatsTuna (talk · contribs) 09:03, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

• Looks interesting! ツLunaEatsTuna (💬)— 09:03, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
• Fun read. Everything done! Please ping me when done thanks. ツLunaEatsTuna (💬)— 10:08, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
  • LunaEatsTuna ping as requested. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:47, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
    • LunaEatsTuna additional fix as requested. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:04, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
      • Thanks! I can now pass yet another fantastic Tolkien article for GA status. Congrats! ツLunaEatsTuna (💬)— 14:10, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Copyvio check

Earwig says good to go. Quotations used in-line with WP:COPYQUOTE—short, necessary extracts and properly attributed.

• Noted.

Files

All images used are relevant, good quality and copyright-free:

• File:Downfall of Númenor.svg: CC-BY-SA 4.0, uploaded by nominator;
• File:Sketch Map of Beleriand.svg: CC-BY-SA 4.0, uploaded by nominator;
• File:Sketch Map of Middle-earth.svg: CC-BY-SA 4.0, uploaded by nominator;
• File:Gondor sketch map.svg: CC-BY-SA 4.0, uploaded by nominator;
• File:Fonstad Mount Doom detail.jpg: valid public domain rationale;
• File:Sketch Map of The Shire.svg: CC-BY-SA 4.0, uploaded by nominator;
• File:Tolkien's Moral Geography of Middle-Earth.svg: CC-BY-SA 4.0, uploaded by nominator;
• File:Middle-earth's Geographic Influences.svg: CC-BY-SA 4.0, uploaded by nominator;
• File:Idylls of the King 18.jpg: valid public domain rationale.
  • Noted.

Prose

• I think it is fair to wikilink geography in the lead as the article concerns it.
  • Marginal, as it's fictional, but done.

• Move wikilink from "the end of the Second Age," to "In the Second Age, a large island," its actual first mention.
  • Done.

• "Middle-earth books, The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings," – LotR is already wikilinked.
  • Fixed, you can freely fix such minor things rather than explaining them, btw.
    • Noted—I am just too used to nitpicking!

• I would merge the sentence starting "Initially, the western part of Middle-earth" into the above paragraph.
  • Done.

• "Third Age, the northern kingdom of Arnor founded by Elendil occupied much of the region. After its collapse, much of Eriador became wild." – being nitpicky, but could one be rephrased slightly to avoid using much of twice so close to each other?
  • Done.

• "hobbits to form the Shire." – wikilink both hobbits and Shire as their first mention in the body.
  • Done.

• "Northeast of there is Bree, the only place where hobbits and Men live in the same villages. Further east from there is the hill of Weathertop" – recommend "Further east from Bree is the hill of Weathertop".
  • Done.

• "the hill with the ancient fortress of Amon Sûl" – the hill is pretty redundant and I think the sentence can be said without it.
  • Done.

• "one of the Valar" – already wikilinked. Also:
  • Done.

• Perhaps wikilink Oromë? Though a redirect it could be informative to curious readers.
  • Done.

• "Mirkwood is the elvish land" – no need to wikilink elvish.
  • Done.

• "where the Dark Lord Sauron forged the One Ring, at its centre." – is at its centre worth noting?
  • Gone.

• "home to the Easterlings." – Do the Easterlings have a species that could be noted?
  • Linked.

• Does the sentence starting "The large lands to the east of Rhûn" really need to be its own paragraph?
  • Closed up.
    • Looks good!

• In Thematic mapping, unlink The Hobbit, LotR, quest and the Shire. IMO wikilinking quest is overlinking because I reckon most readers of such an article would know what a quest is. Relatedly:
  • Done all except quest, which is quite a major topic, and its medieval origins and implications in particular won't necessarily be well known to all.
    • Fair enough, I agree.

• "Both quests begin in The Shire" and "return home to The Shire" – are these capitalisations correct?
  • Fixed.

• "maps as "geographical fact" " – missing a full stop.
  • Fixed.

• "and the routes of characters or armies." – should it not be "and the routes of characters and armies."?
  • Done, both are correct in BE.
    • Interesting :0

• The further information template in § Political geography is not necessary as all of those places are already wikilinked and described above.
  • But not in this section, which is why the template is useful to the reader.
    • I would likely be more inclined to agree if there were redirects to said section but there is only one (Middle-earth roads). I do see your point on why readers would want to visit these articles (especially with the map), but I just reckon most readers of this article are likely to have seen where they are linked. I do not have any concerns with this policy-wise, but I do not think they are really necessary for readers. Anyone particularly curious could probably type it into the search bar. Also, on an unrelated note, the Shire is already wikilinked albeit in the caption (and if you choose to keep the template I would remember the Shire).
      • OK, let's try it without.

• "Unlink "At the end of the Third Age" and move to "Early in the Third Age".
  • Unlinked, but it is the end of the age that concerns LOTR.

• "with traces here and there" – recommend rephrasing for formality.
  • No need, it's standard English.
    • Ah I see. Well, I had seen it in books but never an encyclopaedia before.

• "the city of Gondolin in Beleriand in the First Age" – none of these need to be wikilinked.
  • Gone.

• Remove Mirkwood and Númenor from the Further information template in § Origins.
  • Done.

Refs

Passes spotcheck—no concerns with refs 1, 11, 13, 25, 31 or 37.

• Noted.

• Wikilink Tolkien Estate in ref 15. Also:
  • Done.

• Ref 15 is a dead link.
  • Archived.

• Ref 27 needs a page number.
  • Fixed. The book was/is "to appear", I've merged it with the previous ref but wanted to mention the book also.
    • I see!

• Is a publication name available for ref 31?
  • Added. It's Fimi's blog, but she's more than notable as a Tolkien scholar.
    • As she is a subject matter expert that is acceptable.

Other

Short desc, image formatting, other templates, navs and cats good.

• Noted.

• Mind adding ALT text?
  • Done.

• Recommend template:Use British English.
  • Done.

• Recommend template:Use dmy dates.
  • Done.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:

• Gondor sketch map.svg
• Sketch Map of Middle-earth.svg
• Sketch Map of The Shire.svg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:12, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Mordor is Germany?

What [abuse contrary to Wikipedia policy deleted] is the apparent link of Mordor with Germany on this map https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Geography_of_Middle-earth?#Origins 2003:DC:7F13:F313:2947:AFD4:6B38:89C (talk) 18:45, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

No abuse on talk pages please.

No, no connection with Germany at all. The map shows Mordor has 2 influences --- the Battle of the Somme (in France), in which Tolkien took part; and the Black Country (in England), near where he grew up. The placement of the Middle-earth boxes is just anywhere near the real-world points, placed so that lines do not overlap.

As for Germany, not mentioned on the map at all, Tolkien was unequivocal that there was no equation of wartime enemy with evil: the line between good and evil ran through every human heart, so there was no 'good' or 'bad' side, even if there were ignorant leaders. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:47, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Redhorn Pass

Under Misty Mountains:

…and the all-year Redhorn Pass further south near Moria.

The Redhorn Pass was not "all-year". It could be blocked by bad weather, especially in winter by big snowfalls. In particular the Fellowship of the Ring tried, without success, to use the Redhorn Pass before they felt compelled to pass the Misty Mountains through Moria. — Tonymec (talk) 22:52, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

It was blocked by supernatural means. The party had expected to get through. Chiswick Chap (talk) 01:38, 7 July 2024 (UTC)