Talk:French fluyt Salomon

Requested move 2 September 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved.

Per Pickersgill-Cunliffe and From Hill to Shore and WP:CONSISTENT with our article at Fluyt the usual English name for the vessel is fluyt. As noted in passing, the parenthetical disambiguation is unnecessary and I will move the article to French fluyt Salomon as an ordinary uncontroversial move.(non-admin closure) Havelock Jones (talk) 14:01, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

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French fluyt Salomon (1762) → French flûte Salomon (1762) – The French spelling of the type of ship the Dutch call a fluyt is flûte. It seems odd to me not to use the French spelling. English language sources, such as Threedecks (French flûte 'Le Salomon' (1762)), use the French spelling. Discussion at WT:MILHIST indicates there may be opposition to the move, so this is a requested move as controversial or potentially controversial. If moved, a redirect from the non-diacritic title French flute Salomon (1762) will be created. Mjroots (talk) 12:19, 2 September 2021 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 15:57, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

I take "fluyt" to be the common name for this type of ship, not normally to be translated. For example, this article [1] uses "fluyt" as the name of an unknown ship of that design found in the Baltic Sea. The article specifically says that being a "fluyt" provides 'no guarantee that the vessel was owned and sailed by Dutchmen', and yet it's still called that. I would also point out that threedecks isn't the most reliable source, they very often make mistakes in their work and I've never trusted it as an isolated source. Furthermore, what kind of precedent would this create? Do we need to translate 'French frigate Méduse (1810)' to instead be 'French frégate Méduse (1810)'? To question another aspect, if Salomon is changed to be described as a "flûte" will this not confuse readers with en flûte ships? Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 12:42, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

@Pickersgill-Cunliffe: AFAIK, the is no "English equivalent", but the Dutch spelling is commonly used when referring to fluyts. The majority of these vessels were Dutch. The French operated some flûtes. There is not need to move any "French frigate Foo" articles as there is an English equivalent of "frégate" - frigate. Mjroots (talk) 13:08, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

While I don't just want to play devil's advocate, are you able to provide other sources that use flûte or the national equivalent for a non-Dutch fluyt? I don't think I have access to any sources that would help. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 13:56, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

It's awkward because "flûte" is also the French word for the musical instrument the flute. Maybe a search for "flûte + bateau" or flûte + navire" will be of use. Mjroots (talk) 14:24, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Just a question but why doesn't the French spelling not already exist as a redirect? I'm not making a suggestion either way as I don't have the sources to say which way it should go, but all spellings of flute/fluyt/flûte should have redirects to the ship as there seems to different spellings in different sources. Llammakey (talk) 12:43, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Flute (disambiguation) mentions the French spelling. Mjroots (talk) 13:08, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Couple of comments:

1. Is there any reason the year dab is being included? Are there any indications that there were other fluyts/flutes named Salomon?
2. This reference distinguishes between French flutes and Dutch fluyts, for what it may be worth. Parsecboy (talk) 14:56, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

@Parsecboy: reference #2 is referring to vessels armed en flûte. i.e. having reduced armament. Mjroots (talk) 15:27, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

The only other French Salomon I can find is a 1780 privateer, so we can lose the dab if desired. Mjroots (talk) 16:06, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose. The English word is fluyt, as imported from the Dutch. You can find the word in many English dictionaries with the meaning of a ship based on the Dutch design. Searching for "flûte" in English dictionaries normally comes up as a spelling error for the musical instrument. I don't see the relevance of incorporating a French word into the title when the Dutch spelling has already been incorporated into the English language. This also sets a strange precedent of changing an English word to a foreign language one for stylistic reasons. An equivalent example would be changing the title for a Dutch barque to "zeilboot" because barque entered the English language from the French. From Hill To Shore (talk) 21:18, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.